Force Loyalty Feedback

[Chunga]

Randall wants your thoughts about Force Loyalty. Read the blog here and then comment in this thread.

[Wrangler]

I like it. Its simple and its to the point that solves some problems generating a large force.  Giving a simple lifepath when your not certain or don't want reach too much on what your doing with force would make interesting playing.

Sort of RPG a regiment instead of character.  I can't wait hear more.

[Atlas3060]

Good process, I've added up all the highest modifiers and saw that the best trained, most loyal leaders, and best location still gives you Reliable at the least which makes sense.

This way we could make units that were more loyal to Michael H-D than Hanse or vice versa.

[Thatguybil]

Just going to quibble on:
 +2 for heroic not being balanced with a minus 2 for raw or newly raised.
+3 for the advanced training and not being balanced with a -2 or -3 for untrained or conscripts.

Some items seem redundant.
What really is the difference between force quality and training?
Would it make sense in universe to have a heroic legendary militia or a green horn unit with advanced training?

Can you give examples of historical units that fit the above life paths?

[TS_Hawk]

Just going to quibble on:
 +2 for heroic not being balanced with a minus 2 for raw or newly raised.
+3 for the advanced training and not being balanced with a -2 or -3 for untrained or conscripts.

Some items seem redundant.
What really is the difference between force quality and training?
Would it make sense in universe to have a heroic legendary militia or a green horn unit with advanced training?

Can you give examples of historical units that fit the above life paths?

You asked the same questions that I have.  But I like the idea of this too

[StCptMara]

Myself I see things a little more complicated for a units loyalty.
The relationship between the leader of the unit and the leader of the region should
be taken into account. After all, how many times have there been units that were against
their regional leader?

Additionally: Why does being from a primary academy affect the units loyalty? After all, remember
that the Regulan Academy was a primary Academy for the FWL, and everyone who came out of it
had a prejudice against the Mariks. However, if I was going to apply modifiers, I would likely reduce Secondary Academy, Primary Academy, and Advanced down by 1, so that there was a modifier 0 increment.

Also, I would be inclined to give a equipment rating modifier(After all..Are the legions of Vega Questionable
because they are the dregs of the combine...or does the fact that they get the worst equipment contribute
to that? Are the Swords of Light Fanatical because they are the best of the combine..or are they best of the
combine because they get the best equipment, thus making them inclined to be more loyal?)

I would also be inclined to put a modifier for the regions tendency towards rebellion from the throne.
Skye and St Ives, for example, would be great examples for a penalty, while Oriente and the Crucis March
would be great examples for a bonus.

[txMaddog]

Seems a bit to easy to get a 'Fanatical' Force loyalty.  Positive modifiers don't seem to be counter balanced by the negatives.

Change 'political pressure' in Training to 'political indoctrination'.  :)

[mbear]

Advanced represents exceptional training beyond a premier academy, such as the Kensai Kami in the Draconis Combine.

I'm struggling to come up with additional examples. Capellan Warrior House training? SLDF Gunslinger program? Clan sibko? DEST/Loki/MI6? Solaris arena fighters?

[Istal_Devalis]

I know we're always in danger of overcomplicating things...but if we're goin to have a more detailed look into creating a units loyalty, it needs to be adaptable to multiple displays of loyalty.

Is the unit loyal to the Nation or to the Ruler?
Where does his loyalty most lie? Region? The nation as a whole? Just the local planet?

[Diablo48]

I'm struggling to come up with additional examples. Capellan Warrior House training? SLDF Gunslinger program? Clan sibko? DEST/Loki/MI6? Solaris arena fighters?

I noticed this as well.  Among the Clans you basically get your sibko training with the split between trueborn and freeborn serving for the different academy levels, however I cannot think of anything that would qualify as further training beyond combat experience.

Aside from that it looks like a good framework to me, although I did not pay enough attention to the modifiers and probabilities to really tell what the average spread of loyalties would be.

[Kojak]

I'm struggling to come up with additional examples. Capellan Warrior House training? SLDF Gunslinger program? Clan sibko? DEST/Loki/MI6? Solaris arena fighters?

I think more like the Albion or Sakhara Academies in the Federated Suns, or the Princefield Military Academy in the Free Worlds League.

As for the rules themselves, they seem very solid. I would echo pretty much everything StCaptMara said, though, because I'm always a fiend for more detail. Likewise what Istal_Devalis about multiple loyalties, or "levels" of loyalty to various entities. One other thing I might factor in is some sort of "regional loyalty bonus"; i.e. if the Syrtis Fusiliers are stationed on a world in the Capellan March they receive a +2 loyalty bonus or somesuch, and likewise you could do the reverse, like penalizing a Robinson Rangers force stationed on that same world.

[Minerva]

I'll try to use this to create Nth Dieron Regulars.

Dieron is a critical region, thus +2 to roll in table B to get usually Reliable Leader. I can believe that.

The second step called training is impossible to solve as I do not have even slightest clue where Dieron Regulars (or Pesht Regulars) get most of their recruits from. As a matter of fact I cannot state immediately official source that would tell me that. It also doesn't work with forces that serve as rotating force units (like Royal Guards). Training roll is thus a complete failure as a force generating tool at interstellar scale. However, it is useful when generating small groupings and planetary forces where one can safely assume that local forces are far more homogeneous than forces of interstellar empires. Furthermore, table C has also a problems that going from -1 to +1 is huge in 2D6 roll. Thus making rolls as Militia -1, secondary academy 0, primary academy +1 and advanced training +2 would be better.

I also question the logic of having both Training and Force Quality as separate rolls. Drop table C and move from Table B to D immediately. Given problems with Table C it seems easiest way to salvage this.

[mbear]

I think more like the Albion or Sakhara Academies in the Federated Suns, or the Princefield Military Academy in the Free Worlds League.

OK, but now I forsee a problem because Advanced training:

Advanced represents exceptional training beyond a premier academy, such as the Kensai Kami in the Draconis Combine.

(Emphasis mine.) So your unit can't get advanced training at Albion or Sakhara or Princefield or Nagelring or Wisdom of the Dragon because those are the premier academies of their realms. I can easily see the SLDF Gunslinger program qualifying, but as far as I know the LCAF, FWLM, and AFFS don't offer any equivalent to the Kensai Kami/Gunslinger project. So how would units from the LC/FWL/FS get advanced training?

Thus my suggestion of Eagle Corps/MI6/Loki as Advanced Training examples. I think the CC Warrior House orders also qualify, and maybe Clanners who've been through a Trial of Bloodright (regardless of success).

To be clear, I'm not saying I don't like these rules: I just can't figure out how some factions would be able to use them.

[JamesPryde]

This is GREAT! if your making a small house unit you can get a good idea on how the members fit in. I would suggest that mabe the quality table be made. Like (1-4 Green, 5-9 Reg, 10-11 Vet, 12Elite) just a suggestion but I tried what you have and it worked. Love the simplicity! [rockon]

[skiltao]

Any particular reason to have three sub-tables modify the final force loyalty table, rather than starting with the final loyalty table result and having that modify subsequent rolls on the three sub-tables?

Are these tables supposed to reflect the actual distribution of such units within a military, or to reflect the distribution of units within some subset of a military (e.g., those that commonly see action), or are they skewed for variety, or skewed to balance the sphere-spanning game tier, or what?

On the Training table, "Advanced" represents exceptional training such as the Kensai Kami. But, looking at the Kensai Kami's admission requirements and class sizes, a 3/36 chance of receiving the majority of your personnel from such a program seems absurdly generous for a battalion sized unit and impossibly generous for a regiment. Are these tables supposed to address company and lance-sized units as well? If so, then you might want to have larger (battalion and regiment) sized forces apply a moderating effect to the roll. (While a faction might have one such regiment, its loyalty is not going to be random.)

It seems fair to assume that a unit's prestige is closely tied to the prestige of its typical postings. But if the "Location" table has no effect outside of determining Force Loyalty, then it seems to be acting primarily as a proxy for the unit's supply situation, and I'd rather know the supply situation. (Though if "Location" means something outside of determining Force Loyalty, it might be nice to have both Location and Supply, although that's probably more the realm of whatever detailed resource allocation system was mentioned.)

I would imagine that recent casualties would have a rather large effect on a force's loyalty. In the books, it tends to be tied up with the prestigiousness of the unit's subsequent deployment, their supply situation, how much rest & refit they're getting, and so on. If that's all covered in "Fatigue," then Fatigue should either feed back into loyalty or affect many of the same rolls that loyalty does.

[blackjack]

As far as the Advanced training goes I would suspect that if your command structure CO,Xo & lance/force leaders are all from a high level academy or the same school (figure it like a good old boys club, fraternal order). Then you qualify for the higher rating. Very few line units will end up 100% from the same school. 

[blackjack]

Opps, almost forgot... I like the system.  Gives you the ability to flesh out a unit quickly. Any specific/indiviudal tweaks for specific characters can be handled by the player after the fact. 

[Schottenjaeger]

I like the feel this gives to "loyalty" - basically, how important these troops think your mission is vs. their own interests.

I like the way Backwater/Militia units aren't especially loyal - after all, levying these troops may well leave their home planet undefended. They get word pirates are hitting their home? They'll tithe fewer troops, and may call some back from any levy. Academy troops - even green ones - don't really have an assignment, and their lack of attachment to others makes them more likely to follow you. Even if they panic under fire, their first loyalties are to your command.

You could add on an element of commander loyalty, especially in the Succession Wars era. If the suzerain calls in his troops, the man levying them - even if he's loyal to his overlord - may have better control of the levy than you do. Rolling for a personality clash between the sub-unit commander and you as the superior officer/noble makes a lot of sense.

Something like
(Strong commander) Likes you = +2; Neutral = +1; Hates you= -2
(Normal commander) Likes you =+1; Neutral =+0; Hates you= -1
(Weak commander) Likes you = +0; Neutral = -1; Hates you = -1