'Auxiliaries' - Still Warcriming. (Chapter finished)

[namar13766]

Yup, good logic. :thumbsup:  However, I'm waffling about bumping it up to 4 tons, to reflect duplicating equipment in the launcher for the single missile.

Why would you duplicate the electronics when it’s going to be a one-shot system anyway?

[Red Pins]

Why would you duplicate the electronics when it’s going to be a one-shot system anyway?

Ok, check me on this.

Each 200 kg missile needs a certain amount of support equipment to prep for launch; each Missile Tube has to duplicate that equipment, while each reloadable Arrow 4 launcher does not.  Thus, you can save weight by purchasing an Arrow 4 system.  The individual Missile Tubes are a fraction of the total mass and size of the full system, so yes, they can fit where the full system can't.  But even their 'single use' ability still means it isn't as efficient as the full system.

For example, the old one-shot missile system - it needed the additional halt-ton added to each launcher.  It would have been more efficient to buy the full-up launcher and spend the additional half-ton to get a full ton of reloads.

(Its been a long time since I used the old rules for one-shots, so my reasoning may be flawed, but that's the idea behind it.  Essentually, I don't want the ability to carry five Missile Tubes to replace the Arrow IV launcher.  The Arrow IV. Launcher remains more efficient, so you could argue the individual tube should be slightly heavier and larger than 3 tons/3 crits.  The fact I'm trying to shoehorn it into 3 tons/crits is cheating, thus my waffling over realism or convenience.)

[namar13766]

Ok, check me on this.

Each 200 kg missile needs a certain amount of support equipment to prep for launch; each Missile Tube has to duplicate that equipment, while each reloadable Arrow 4 launcher does not.  Thus, you can save weight by purchasing an Arrow 4 system.  The individual Missile Tubes are a fraction of the total mass and size of the full system, so yes, they can fit where the full system can't.  But even their 'single use' ability still means it isn't as efficient as the full system.

(Its been a long time since I used the old rules for one-shots, so my reasoning may be flawed, but that's the idea behind it.  Essentially, I don't want the ability to carry five Missile Tubes to replace the Arrow IV launcher.  The Arrow IV. Launcher remains more efficient, so you could argue the individual tube should be slightly heavier and larger than 3 tons/3 crits.  The fact I'm trying to shoehorn it into 3 tons/crits is cheating, thus my waffling over realism or convenience.)

Honestly, it sounds like you have a solution in search of problem.

Leaving Missile Tubes at 3 tons and 1 critical is just fine since These are designed for launch, retreat, reload, repeat, and not sustained battlefield operations like a dedicated Arrow-IV launcher.

Edit: Are Missile Tubes destroyed after firing and thus need to replaced outright instead of merely needed to be reloaded? If yes, there's a drawback you can use to justify them being lighter and more compact.

Furthermore, since they can only have 1 kind of Arrow-IV missile loaded, you have to hope that the one you have loaded is what's really needed for the situation at hand.

[Red Pins]

Honestly, it sounds like you have a solution in search of problem.

Leaving Missile Tubes at 3 tons and 1 critical is just fine since These are designed for launch, retreat, reload, repeat, and not sustained battlefield operations like a dedicated Arrow-IV launcher.

Edit: Are Missile Tubes destroyed after firing and thus need to replaced outright instead of merely needed to be reloaded? If yes, there's a drawback you can use to justify them being lighter and more compact.

Furthermore, since they can only have 1 kind of Arrow-IV missile loaded, you have to hope that the one you have loaded is what's really needed for the situation at hand.

Yeah, but...  I'm waffling.  To leave them, or nerf them?  If I go completely one-shot, they cease to be an advantage because every 5 or more tubes I use most of the components for an actual Arrow IV launcher.  If I make most of the components reusable, it weighs more but I'm saving resources in the long run.

And most of the tubes are AA, TAG-guided, or nuke.  And when in doubt, they go for the atrocity.  There's a reason for the title of this thread.    :fine_print:

[namar13766]

Maybe have a Light Missile Tube (3 tons, 1 Slot) which needs to be rebuilt and a Heavy Missile Tube (4 Tons, 2 Slots) which can be reusable?

That way you have one which is useful for booby-trapped drone units and one which is preferable for more valuable manned units.

[Red Pins]

No..  Production lines and parts are too limited.  The Blakist Invasion is being fought from ambush on a shoestring...  Its part of the reason for Annihilating the home planet of the collaborators, Clan Zombie Python - most of their personnel, logistics, and manufacturing were wiped out in a week, leaving the Blakists to be forced to try and warcrime the Cluster into defeat, and the angry Clans to chase them to their Periphery base and finish Annihilating them.

I'm sure the New Clans would have been perfectly willing to nuke them, but the Bioweapon the Blakists accidently released while they fought their own civil war after the defeat did the job for them.

[namar13766]

Ok, then this is my opinion.

Don't Nerf Them.

You're allowed to have some straight up general improvements which doesn't require some silly drawback.

Otherwise, Clantech should be taken out back and shot.

[Red Pins]

Opinion noted.   >:D

Don't ask me about twin-engine FighterShips, 150- and 200 ton mechs, permanent AirMechs, Hardpoints,  Mech Stilts and Arms...

When I worry about Nuclear Arrow missiles - you don't want to know why they use them.   >:D

[namar13766]

Opinion noted.   >:D

Don't ask me about twin-engine FighterShips, 150- and 200 ton mechs, permanent AirMechs, Hardpoints,  Mech Stilts and Arms...

When I worry about Nuclear Arrow missiles - you don't want to know why they use them.   >:D

1)...How big can these FighterShips get?

2) If you're making the Mech Arms and Legs bigger, why don't you just call them Limb Extensions?

3) What, did the Blakists create a Nuclear Arrow Variant which, instead of having a single Davy Crockett warhead, shotguns a lot of Elias warheads over several hexes?

[Red Pins]

Hehehehehe...

1.  200 ton small craft, ER/2,  XL engines allowed.  I use them as fighter-bombers, carrying nuclear Cap missiles.  And Assault DropShip killers. :o
2.  I did!!   ;D  I JUST SHORTEN it to stilts!   :))
3.  Imagine...  A Level 2 of 2k kg wheeled BA, towing trailers towing - you guessed it - Davy Crocketts in missile tubes.  Good thing they're DRONES!!

[Red Pins]

Imagine, seeing a 100 ton ASF with 3 AC/20 Ultras and hearing, "Hold my beer.".  :yikes:

[Red Pins]

Well, back on topic.  Forgot my workbook at work, so had to spend tonight re-doing the stats.  But, a 3/5 Clan Spheroid Small Craft of 200 tons, Engine mass of 37 tons, 10.5 tons of fuel and pumps, SI of 2 tons, Control of 1.5 tons, a base crew of 3 with Steerage Quarters of 15 tons, 6 tons of standard armor, and 7 free double heatsinks can indeed carry a payload of 128 tons.

AV-1 (Civilian)

5xELM Bays - 100 tons
2xBA Bays (10) - 10 tons
Cargo - 18 tons

AV-2 (Blakist)

6xELM Bays - 120 tons
1xBA Bay (6) - 6 tons
2xMedium Drone Racks

I'm a little afraid of the damage potential of some of the NC weapons, in particular the iAC/20.  The weapon carries only 5 shots but I can fire a single round, Ultra-rate, or empty the weapon in a single round (with terrible accuracy, but still), and I can fill all 12 Nose crit slots with tonnage left over - a damage potential of 1,200.  Granted, anything over 2 rounds is damn near half-again as difficult to land, but even those 2 rounds would cause 480 damage.

The warcriming potential is massive, too - 128 tons for Drones would make it a massive Landing Craft (Drone), the Micro-ASF Carrier would be HUNDREDS of Robotic ASF, the Artillery version would land with 7-8 Arrow IV launchers, spotter drones, and 10 rounds/weapon.

Still, its only a 3/5, and although it falls fast to avoid enemy ASF and might face massed AA Arrow IV missiles trying to kill it, it could be the victim of an opposing unit or Avalanche with a similar loadout.  If they get used and have to retreat, they're dead meat without an escort, Ortillery, or whatever - they're meant to land crushing blows, but crumple like beer cans if something targets them.

[Red Pins]

Well, I've got a provisional page, with a Data Table of what I consider the relevant facts divided between what I consider the 'characteristics' list and the 'individual specs'.  Note that this is the civilian version, although I imagine you can understand the first NC/WoB models will carry an Arrow IV and 3 Ammo and the Blakist model will carry an additional ELM Bay and a single BA Bay with a pair of Medium Drone Racks.

The original ELM description in the old project didn't include a description of their Bay; given that canon Protos (the closest comparable unit) has a maximum size of a 9 ton unit in a 10 ton Bay, I decided to make the ELM bay 20 tons, although I suppose I could trim off the 19 ton ELMs for a maximum of 18 tons in the 20 ton bay.

Anyway, its late, and although I don't like the empty space, it is only a first draft.  Comments?

[Daryk]

Shouldn't 6 tons be 96 points of armor? ???

[namar13766]

The base design looks pretty solid. I’m looking forward to seeing what the drone variants will be like, both the Artillery and Micro-ASF versions.

Edit: The fact you’re using WOB and Blakist as separate terms makes me feel things are going to be more complicated .

Could Missile Tubes be mounted on ELMs? I’m pretty sure that they won’t appear this way in campaign due to resource limitations, but would the rules allow for it anyway?

[Red Pins]

Shouldn't 6 tons be 96 points of armor? ???

It's multiplied by 20 for some reason, but I'll check.

The base design looks pretty solid. I’m looking forward to seeing what the drone variants will be like, both the Artillery and Micro-ASF versions.

Edit: The fact you’re using WOB and Blakist as separate terms makes me feel things are going to be more complicated .

Could Missile Tubes be mounted on ELMs? I’m pretty sure that they won’t appear this way in campaign due to resource limitations, but would the rules allow for it anyway?

The 2nd line troops, supporters, and civilians are on a former SL/ComStar base,  renamed Elba.  It's been a long time since ComStar, and the inhabitants are more realistic but don't see a chance to escape the insanity.  The religious fanatics (the Blakists) plotting to take over the Cluster as the first step to trying to conquer the IS get ambushed by the WoB when the Blakists get routed from the Cluster and try to revolt but one of their bioweapons was moved and hidden, and a WarShip let it loose, decimating both sides.  The NC arrives, and since they were going to Annihilate them anyway...

Yeah, the ELMs can 'backpack' the missile tubes - it's one of the reasons behind the prevalence of would-be systems, because the Wolverine survivors knew they'd be offered no quarter of mercy from the dezClans.  The Blakists and their allies the Civil Government and Clan Zombie Python are trying to intimidate a society of texans.  It doesn't go well, to put it mildly, and when the Blakist Alliance starts committing atrocities the Pythons and their Capital are wiped out, leaving the Civil Government sueing for terms of surrender and the Blakists the targets of all those nukes.

I think there's a full timeline somewhere, maybe ourbattletech?  The forums might still be down, though.

[Daryk]

20 would be clan ferro, but the total is only 80 for 6 tons, which is why I'm scratching my head...

[namar13766]

The 2nd line troops, supporters, and civilians are on a former SL/ComStar base,  renamed Elba.  It's been a long time since ComStar, and the inhabitants are more realistic but don't see a chance to escape the insanity.  The religious fanatics (the Blakists) plotting to take over the Cluster as the first step to trying to conquer the IS get ambushed by the WoB when the Blakists get routed from the Cluster and try to revolt but one of their bioweapons was moved and hidden, and a WarShip let it loose, decimating both sides.  The NC arrives, and since they were going to Annihilate them anyway...

******. That almost turns it into a tragedy.

[Red Pins]

Sorry, modified the last post while you were typing.  Poetic justice, I thought - ComStar was big on breaking up everybody else up, after all.  What makes them immune?

[namar13766]

Sorry, modified the last post while you were typing.  Poetic justice, I thought - ComStar was big on breaking up everybody else up, after all.  What makes them immune?

Yeah, it’s filling me with a healthy degree of schadenfreude.

Are the Micro-ASF like these? https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-designs-rules/protofighters!/

[Red Pins]

...I'd like to point out my name is all over that thread... ^-^

I actually forgot about it, so thanks for the save.  But I'm hoping to get down to 5 tons, with some AU tech to put on, like a Missile Cassette.  30-31 full-up LRMs/SRMs/MRMs/ELRMs is quite a hammer.

Missile Cassettes are steel frameworks for 1/3 ton of missiles.  Think SRM carrier.  Now fire an SRM-2, -4, -6 or any combination of them up to the full Cassette.  Ground units have to unload the Cassette, load a new one, aim, and fire but the Micro-Fighters will have to be single-shot.

[Red Pins]

And my long weekend is over; back to work.  But here's a second draft of the Avalanche, and a page of variants.  Really not fond of this; I'm ambivalent about the reporting names, and my first impulse was to leave the full entry rather than leave just the variant name, weapons, and cargo changes.

I'm thinking of a new layout, a TRO entry with a single column of Overview/Capabilities.  Seems like it deserves it.  Makes for 3.5-4 pages for all the variants and I'm not sure I'm done.

*Edit - 5x20 ton ELM Bays are not 120 tons.  Whups.

[Daryk]

I'm still seeing 6 tons for 80 points of armor? ???

[Red Pins]

Yeah, it's waiting for the next draft - just shifted columns and the image around this time.  It's a lot more of a pain in the ass to have three Word files open, TM, Sarna, MML,and calculator open at once with my workbook at work this weekend.  Then add the Dog and 4 special needs kids.  There's a reason my most productive hours are 10 pm-2 am.

[Daryk]

Ah, ok... I'll try to read more closely when you update... sorry for the bother!

[Red Pins]

Heh.  Its like potato chips - nobody else even wants to ask about it, and when then express interest - the floodgate doesn't open, the damn dam bursts. :excited: :excited:  But now I really have to tear myself away.

[namar13766]

The Avalanche and the Bane have the same loadout. Is that supposed to be a placeholder?

Edit: Would the Rapid Dragon make use of Missile Cassettes, or would conventional missile launchers be better for this unit's intended role?

I'm not seeing the variant with multiple Arrow-IV launchers.

[Red Pins]

Bane's above the reporting name -it's got the 12 iACs mentioned earlier.

I'm not wasting war crime potential - I'm thinking Davy Crocketts or full-blown Cruise Missiles.  Maybe air-dropped Mech s or vehicles or something.

Last one is a copy-paste for the next one, the artillery.

[Red Pins]

Well, a productive night, but its back to the grind tomorrow - more cleaning, purging 10 years of crap out of the basement, cleaning dryer vents, making repair part lists for new vents - just MORE.  Still got another full page of 4 more variants to do - I'm pretty sure I can find one more after that to finish the next page, I just don't want to do a standard variant.

I am considering a drone or robotic variant, something like the WoB Tiamat or Dragau, to use over the Python homeworld before it gets nuked (That's getting kinda monotonous, isn't it?) or a long-duration mass driver of some sort?  Wouldn't be the first time I designed something because the canon example wouldn't fit.

Anyway, here's the first five variants - I'm still considering going to 6-pt font to get more space for text, but that will take a bit of fiddling before I make that decision.  The nosebleed fonts are just too small for me, despite being able to magnify the text easily in PDF.  Thank goodness I figured out the Ctrl-mouse wheel zoom function!  So much easier than changing the monitor magnification.  Anyway, the remaining variants are;

AV-4B – Air Superiority/Assault
AV-5B – Point Defense (Warship Support)
AV-6B – Artillery Support
AV-7NC – Vehicle bays (?  Dropchutes?)

*Edit - forgot to check the armor issue again - made a note on the page to look into it.

[namar13766]

Once again the AV-1NC has 5x20 ton ELM Bays being 120 tons instead of 100 tons as it should be.