3250 reference in Second Succession War

[Iracundus]

Something like "Handbook Inner Sphere: 3250."

Exactly.  I am interested in more world building aspects like what the person on the street thinks, the economic situation, internal politics, social issues, and any cultural shifts, more than having a list/timeline showing that unit A beat up unit B on planet C that is otherwise just a name and dot on a map. 

There are tidbits dropped about 3250 that are food for thought.  I almost get a Renegade Legion vibe with the arena fights (possibly a mask for rebellion?).

[Drewbacca]

Outside of the introduction was there another 3250 reference in TRO: Succession Wars?

[Sartris]

no, the rest of the volume was taken directly from the parent TROs

[Drewbacca]

Thanks. I did not see anything, but then I totally glossed over the into the first time. :))

[Sartris]

so far our total knowledge consists of the Loremaster's blurbs in 2SW and TRO:SW plus possibly the kidding-not kidding-am I kidding? April Fool's Day St. Ives turning points from 2012

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

no, the rest of the volume was taken directly from the parent TROs

The Banshee got a new write-up, as the default model was changed to the 3S.  Didn't mention anything about 3250, though.

[klarg1]

I like the time jumps, we skip all the boring peaceful stuff, and get to the meat of the wars quicker. Imagine if we got a sourcebook The machinations of the Free Worlds League in the Star League's Free Trade era"? That would be boring as hell, especially if there was one for every nation state.

I actually agree with this one.

I have said before, Battletech could actually use a relatively peacefull interlude with no sphere-shattering conflicts to allow some of the dust to settle, and for the powers that exist to rebuild their stuff so we can blow it up all over again. A time skip seems like a perfectly appropriate way to handle it.

I wasn't paying much attention during the original 3250 controversy. Was the issue with the time skip itself, or with some element of the teased future era? (I genuinely don't know) I could imagine either, or both being the case.

(Also, I would totally buy a Euro-style economic game based on FWL trade in the age of the 3rd Star League.  :D)

[nckestrel]

I actually agree with this one.

I have said before, Battletech could actually use a relatively peacefull interlude with no sphere-shattering conflicts to allow some of the dust to settle, and for the powers that exist to rebuild their stuff so we can blow it up all over again. A time skip seems like a perfectly appropriate way to handle it.

I wasn't paying much attention during the original 3250 controversy. Was the issue with the time skip itself, or with some element of the teased future era? (I genuinely don't know) I could imagine either, or both being the case.

(Also, I would totally buy a Euro-style economic game based on FWL trade in the age of the 3rd Star League.  :D)

Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.

[Cubby]

I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I wasn't involved then with BT to the extent I am now. But if we're going to Monday Morning Quarterback something from five years ago, I believe the biggest single cause of the furor was much simpler: it was the way the plans were presented, as a few passing mentions in a BattleChat by the line developer at that time.

I'll spare everyone the detailed PR/comms theory, because a lot of it is common sense--you just can't do that. There's always going to be pressure from the customers/fans to wheedle out details of what's coming next, and it feels good to break some news. But publicly mentioning 3250 at such an early stage of development was, frankly, disastrous. It's not about hiding things or keeping secrets, it's about proper marketing which brings your already developed and produced products across to customers in an exciting way.

Instead, the passing mentions of yet-uncreated products acted as a referendum on the idea as a whole. Rather than management saying, "here's the new products that are just about ready, and why you're going to be excited about them," they in essence said, "here's what we're thinking about doing." That major difference allowed those opposed to the idea to mount a significant, and ultimately effective, campaign to kill the idea before it ever really got moving.

[klarg1]

Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.

Thanks for the summary.

[The_Livewire]

Heh, 3250, all this has happened before and will happen again. The Ilclan has fallen, the Inner Sphere is sliding into intro tech and the last Loremaster stands on Terra, rambling about how they got here. ;-)

Voila, compatible with the intro set, with lots of lostech for players to discover. :)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

My personal explanation is that the Sea Foxes just up and bought Terra.

[jklantern]

My personal explanation is that the Sea Foxes just up and bought Terra.

Your ideas intrigue me.  Do you have a periodical I could subscribe to, perhaps?

[Arkansas Warrior]

Let's see if I can sum up..
1) Hints that the sheer number of weapons/equipment would be reduced spooked those that want to spend all day designing new units.
2) People that were just getting in to the Dark Age and didn't want to jump immediately into a new era.  (we haven't gotten all the Dark age units as miniatures, story isn't complete, etc)
3) Concerns that a time jump would make existing collections obsolete.  Whether it's minis, or rules, or whatever is new about the new era.

For my own opinion,
1) I think we need to start with new player friendly, and then BT can expand from there.  As long as that expansion keeps the base game new player friendly.  ie. keep expansion of equipment on the sidelines (prototypes) or easily accessible (expansion box set and still new player friendly rules).
2) I think the new era needs LOTS of prep time.  It's not coming next year or the year after. We have time to finish up the Dark Age before any new era comes along.  That time should be used to make sure the new era is done well.
3) I don't have any fears that BattleTech wouldn't keep Thunderbolts, Orions, Wolverines, etc recognizable (see Classics..). And the new era would feature them prominently. The same as 3050 Griffins were recognizably Griffins. Rules-wise, I wouldn't expect major changes either. It would still be BattleTech.

I was (and am) firmly in Camp 2.  I had played some of the Mechwarrior video games, but had just discovered the FCCW novels on a local bookstore’s shelves in late summer 2002.  Cue December ‘02, when Ghost War dropped.  Essentially ever since then, Battletech has been constrained by MWDA.  We knew the outcome, we just didn’t know the details of how we got there.  Same for the historicals.  Same for the backlog of old novels I gradually amassed.


So, we’d just gotten to a point where we finally, at long last, caught up and could do...anything, really. I was actually getting really excited to see not just how we’d reach a known destination, but where we’d go.  And then people start talking about jumping a hundred years into the future.  I mean, that’s also a new era with no pre-determined outcome, but I didn’t want to leave this one!  I wanted to know what happens when the Fortress falls, whether or not Julian will bail the FedSuns out, and so on and so forth.  And I wanted to see it in real time, not a summary in a 20 Year Update-type product.  Still do, really.  Historicals are nice, but I’d much rather see some updates on the bleeding edge.

[StoneRhino]

just like the first drips out of a leaking dam are probably just condensation

Wheres that "like" button at?? :))

[ColBosch]

Hindsight is 20/20, and I wasn't involved then with BT to the extent I am now. But if we're going to Monday Morning Quarterback something from five years ago, I believe the biggest single cause of the furor was much simpler: it was the way the plans were presented, as a few passing mentions in a BattleChat by the line developer at that time.

There was also a leak of information. Herb never publicly stated what his plans for the post-Dark Age era were, aside from moving into the new era of 3250. Sadly, someone privy to the internal discussions told a buddy, and that buddy posted a very angry series of questions in "Ask the Writers." It was especially frustrating to those of us "in the know" to suddenly see everything become public in such a manner, as much of it was still under internal discussion and development. Those of us with NDAs clammed up and Herb did the best he could, but it was beyond anyone's control at that point. So an entire cycle of product development had to be scuttled over literally nothing. I'm hopeful the new team can salvage something from the wreck because man, it was going to be glorious.

[Sartris]

Loose lips still sink ships

[Nightlord01]

Loose lips still sink ships

Heh, that's not what I'm reading here Sartris. This is a deliberate scuttling by a fan who didn't agree with the proposed changes, it's a pretty tried and true formula that's been used in many fields. Unfortunately, most people only see one side of the argument, and will jerk their knee so hard they put their back out in self-righteous outrage. Now, in some cases this approach is justified, don't get me wrong. BUT in a case about the future of a fictional game universe? Yeah, you're not going to sell me on that one.

To be honest I wish the Devs has simply battened down the hatches and weathered the storm. This forum does not contain anywhere near all of the player base, and isn't representative of them. I saw exactly the same storm when GW's games shifted to their current versions, and both of those games have shown growth in player numbers. Unfortunately the OG of Battletech have the Devs bluffed, and the Devs now act like they are running scared of a sector of the player base.  I'd rather see the game go down in flames doing something glorious than fade away without a whimper because the one sector of the player base the Devs listen to are reactionary.

[marcussmythe]

Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

[Kit deSummersville]

I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future

Winning is never a future for anyone in BattleTech. It's only temporary.

[pensiveswetness]

I did an analysis of the economic viability of shipping rice from Kaifeng to Sarna:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=vpobojutv59frregd2sp0h9r54&topic=54402.0

AFAIK the catgirl apocalypse has not happened.  Clearly more can be done before we cross that line.

When that happens (the CGA), i hope they wear fishnets. you will have me at fishnet leggings.

[00Dawg]

Winning is never a future for anyone in BattleTech. It's only temporary.

Someone will be on top when the lights go out.

After all, 2042 is the last World Series, and the London Kings will permanently be the titleholders. 

[Drewbacca]

Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

I had a hard time coming to grips with the post-jihad story line. When I looked at it I was thinking of how thing would develop and getting the synopsis of one novel after another I was really uncertain that I would follow the game where it was going. Then I looked at it from a different angle. I looked at the FWL. The fractured FWL seemed like a great idea to me. It was like a "pick your league" situation where players who could back one of the sub-factions and run with it, while at the same time the game added potential conflict. I actually started to hope something like this would happen with Combine and the other houses. The clans already had thier internal factionalism.

I seriously doubt the the ilClan storyline will lead to a new, eternal league. I would not be surprised we see a period of peace under the ilClan with things starting to unravel when we get to 3250.

But that is just me.

[Kit deSummersville]

Someone will be on top when the lights go out.

After all, 2042 is the last World Series, and the London Kings will permanently be the titleholders. 

That's what they said when Theodosius the First canceled the Olympics. Good thing for Michael Phelps some folks decided to make a change.

[Iracundus]

Without taking a position on the probity of a plan to move the setting forward to 3250 in the pursuit of a cleaner slate, as almost everything would depend on execution (facts of that execution not being in evidence), I will say that any outcome that creates a 'Clans Win' future for the Battletech Universe would be a very, very hard thing to sell to me as a player.

I may not be a good barometer for this, though, as I have not been able to easily engage with the story line since the Jyhad.  Others may find the idea of a triumphant clan/clans over a supine inner sphere every bit as much to their taste as they find the current setting and timeline events.

I can say I personally have a distaste for the Clans mainly based on their background.  The only way I can see an ilClan really is something akin to how the Mongols ruled over China briefly.  Numerically the Clans are far outnumbered by the IS, just as the Mongols were outnumbered by their subjects.  The lore snippets we have had from TRO: Succession Wars seems to suggest a Jade Falcon-like snobbery and contempt for freeborns, which I could see paralleling the Mongolian Yuan dynasty of China and its hierarchy of reliability/status for the various groups under their rule.  Like the Mongols, I would see the eventual collapse of an ilClan led League similarly to the Mongols.  They were absorbed by the culture of the conquered, and the ruling class became more absorbed in their own internal politics and civil wars than in ruling, until their subjects rose up in revolt and kicked them back out to the Pentago...steppes

[ColBosch]

Wait, did people really think that the Third League/ilClan was going to work? Welcome to BattleTech, folks, where the entire point is to break everything.

[Sartris]

Wait, did people really think that the Third League/ilClan was going to work? Welcome to BattleTech, folks, where the entire point is to break everything.

Don’t you know hysteria-derived outcomes based on the tiniest portion of partial information are the most accurate truth?

[ColBosch]

Don’t you know hysteria-derived outcomes based on the tiniest portion of partial information are the most accurate truth?

You know what really tickles my pickle here? Because of the fan furor, instead of regular releases of products moving the timeline forward that some might not have liked, we instead got several years of very few products at all, and a good chunk of that was rehashed material. *slow claps* Good work, guys.

(And no offense meant to the folks who worked on those products. Something had to come out, after all, and the quality of the books continues to be excellent.)

[Sellsword]

You know what really tickles my pickle here? Because of the fan furor, instead of regular releases of products moving the timeline forward that some might not have liked, we instead got several years of very few products at all, and a good chunk of that was rehashed material. *slow claps* Good work, guys.

(And no offense meant to the folks who worked on those products. Something had to come out, after all, and the quality of the books continues to be excellent.)

I don’t know what happened internally with CGL during this period but I think it’s a bit  unfair to just blame the over reacting fans for the end result of diminished products. It seems to me that scrapping plans for the time jump and rules modifications do to the over reaction of fans is in itself over reacting.

[ColBosch]

I don’t know what happened internally with CGL during this period but I think it’s a bit  unfair to just blame the over reacting fans for the end result of diminished products. It seems to me that scrapping plans for the time jump and rules modifications do to the over reaction of fans is in itself over reacting.

So CGL should've released products that the fans, at the time, said they didn't want? ;)