BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Greatclub on 23 June 2019, 14:11:06
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Some mechs are more survivable than others. Some have too little armor, some go too slow, some are just too big a threat to not draw copious amounts of aggro.
For example, I'd expect more Marauders to survive to be handed down than Warhammers. Warhammer is an infighter with far too little armor on the legs, with more ammo bombs. Marauder wants to stay in the mid-range and snipe.
What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?
Not:
Wasps, stingers - Anything that dies to a single large laser needs to be off the list
Jenner - Just has nothing going for it survival-wise except speed.
Hunchback - Needs to get in people's face. Not fast enough to get out.
Rifleman, jagermech - At least they're mid-liners, but that's not enough to save them.
Victor - As with the hunchback, but with thin armor for it's size.
Things I'd expect to live forever
Valkyrie - lives in the backline, mobile, decent armor
Griffins - same, but better.
Ostsol- flashbulbs, fast.
Archers - Backliners with very heavy armor
Grasshoppers - just need to ditch the LRM ammo...
Awesome - most irritating thing to kill in 3025.
What do you think?
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I think that list is a great start!
I think Ostscouts (used properly) would last for generations, while Spiders would die much too easily.
Centurions would have a decent chance of being passed down, or at least better than a Trebuchet.
While I absolutely agree about stock Jenners being easy to kill, I think the opposite about Uparmored Jenners. Three more tons of armor makes all the difference.
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I'll have to disagree on the OstScout. Being so valuable for what that do, they would be considered state assets and not awarded.
Atlas and Battlemasters, being common high-level command units, would also be property of high prestige families.
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I would think just about any mech can be a family heirloom depending on several things.
Is service history - Does it serve on the frontlines or garrison duty?
How good the pilots are. - A better pilot is more likely to bring the mech back than a poor pilot.
If they can keep their mech hidden and until they can get it off planet if their side looses the battle. If they can't it won't stay in the family.
The big question is how functional is the family mech? It'd be easier to get parts for a Wasp than it would be for a Scorpion.
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Yeah, but on average.
The chaos Irregulars have a mongoose that has been handed down seven generations; it's noted that it is an anomaly. The foxes teeth had a warhammer driver with a heirloom mech, which he lost. Arden Sortek went through three or more Victors, so even if the first was a heirloom (Unknown), the last one was unlikely to be.
Any mech could be handed down, but which are the ones that could be reasonably expected to?
Also, do we have solid information on how somebody could come into possession of a mech? Is it by grant or purchase only, or could salvaging or legitimately finding one (followed by service) lead to ownership? Does that change by era?
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Don't forget that in universe, mech pilots pretty much operated under forced withdraw rules, especially in the Third SW.
Very different then the way most (or some, depending who you ask) players play on a table.
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Early in the game it was stated (I believe) that the vast majority of mechs were heirlooms. It wasn't until the discovery of the Helm core that this changed, states increased production to the point that most mechs were property of the military, not the family. By the time of the Clan Invasion, and beyond, family owned mechs are the minority.
Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).
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Early in the game it was stated (I believe) that the vast majority of mechs were heirlooms. It wasn't until the discovery of the Helm core that this changed, states increased production to the point that most mechs were property of the military, not the family.
This is very much an earlier thing. In Battledroids I don't believe there was any production of new 'Mechs, but this had changed by the time 2nd ed came around, and was likely and thing of the past when 3025 and the first House books came out.
Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).
Here's the other thing, the 'Mech has to remain in the family for several generations for it to become a heirloom, and for any design with low armor, 4 to 6 tons minimum, to moment you encounter any sort of heavy fighting your ride is toast, so designs that don't meet these criteria aren't going to become heirlooms because they don't last long enough.
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Hmmm... with the low intensity fighting, raids, and ransoms in the period, would there actually be that level of heavy fighting on a regular basis? According to the lore, MechWarriors would surrender and be ransomed back, or run away (strategic advance to the rear) prior to that kind of catastrophic destruction.
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Hmmm... with the low intensity fighting, raids, and ransoms in the period, would there actually be that level of heavy fighting on a regular basis? According to the lore, MechWarriors would surrender and be ransomed back, or run away (strategic advance to the rear) prior to that kind of catastrophic destruction.
For most 'Mech most likely not, but for anything with low armor like I said won't last long, a Wasp gets into a fight with a Phoenix Hawk and gets it's by the Large Laser and it's game over for the Wasp pilot, he can't retreat, if nothing else happens chances are his family's not getting that Wasp back.
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Also remember all those SLDF divisions that went over to the various Houses, their mechs were how they ended up with lands and titles . . . eventually. Except for the Dracs, we know any SLDF (why?) that joined them had their mechs taken for the elite Drac formations and they got scraps to replace.
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I don't subscribe to the idea that light, poorly armored 'Mechs wouldn't be family heirlooms.
As has been said above, the spare parts situation is much better, to the point where you may be able to keep a Wasp running where a Scorpion is lost to maintenance shortfalls.
But it's also fallacious to base the overall assumption on gamebord performance/longevity. When all you have is that Wasp, then you stay the hell away from things that can dent it. After all, a Wasp is plenty enough to terrorize, subdue and thus rule over most neighborhoods in a universe where a lance can supposedly defend a planet and the total number of functional 'Mechs on a given planet is a two-digit number at most, outside of capitals, staging worlds and factory worlds.
And if you're a merc (or a House retainer - much the same thing really), then there will be a clause in your contract that makes sure you get a replacement 'Mech if and when your own heirloom 'Mech is lost in the line of duty, much like Ardan Sortek got a new Victor after losing his on Stein's Folly. That's really the only reasonably explanation as to why light 'Mech pilots would often take great risks in gameboard terms and go up against much stronger opponents. They plainly wouldn't do that in a situation where their 'Mech was irreplaceable.
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As has been said above, the spare parts situation is much better, to the point where you may be able to keep a Wasp running where a Scorpion is lost to maintenance shortfalls.
This sentence contradicts itself
But it's also fallacious to base the overall assumption on gamebord performance/longevity. When all you have is that Wasp, then you stay the hell away from things that can dent it. After all, a Wasp is plenty enough to terrorize, subdue and thus rule over most neighborhoods in a universe where a lance can supposedly defend a planet and the total number of functional 'Mechs on a given planet is a two-digit number at most, outside of capitals, staging worlds and factory worlds.
You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.
And if you're a merc (or a House retainer - much the same thing really), then there will be a clause in your contract that makes sure you get a replacement 'Mech if and when your own heirloom 'Mech is lost in the line of duty, much like Ardan Sortek got a new Victor after losing his on Stein's Folly. That's really the only reasonably explanation as to why light 'Mech pilots would often take great risks in gameboard terms and go up against much stronger opponents. They plainly wouldn't do that in a situation where their 'Mech was irreplaceable.
Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.
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Any Mech could be an heirloom. There are plenty of examples in both the novels and the sourcebooks, ranging from Sergeant Tracy Maxwell Kent of the Gray Death Legion's Phoenix Hawk to Hanse Davion's Battlemaster, to Yen Lo Wang. As for family access, it's going to vary more by region, wealth and production than anything else. Wasps, Locusts and such would be super common given how large the production runs were, followed by the 55 ton animal trio, the Phoenix Hawk, Centurions, and so on. Heavies and assaults are far more rare.
Of course the feudal Mechwarrior families start to vanish as the Succesion Wars draw to a close and the Clans destroy units wholesale. The increase in production/technology and death of older personnel makes professional armies more appealing to the various powers, and the families are forced to upgrade, go merc, sell off their equipment, or fade away.
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This sentence contradicts itself
You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.
Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.
No he's saying that some mechs, like I did earlier, that some mechs have a greater availability of spare parts than others. There's far more Wasps than there are Scoprions so it'd be easier for a family to keep a Wasp functioning than it would be a Scorpion. That said Scorpions can be a family mech. There's one in 3025. There's also a Stinger LAM that's a family mech.
I don't see why. It wouldn't require a great Wasp pilot to take over a neighborhood. I'm also not sure how well trained the pilot would need to be to run away in the face of bigger opposition. Breaking contact in a Wasp after taking a hit from a large laser might require a better pilot though.
True, there's always ways a family could lose their mech with no replacement. That's why being dispossessed was a big fear for mech pilots. They'd even take mech to avoid being without one.
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This sentence contradicts itself
Probably a misunderstanding, as RifleMech wrote above.
You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.
Care to explain? You can rule a periphery planet with a Wasp. Why would you put the 'Mech in danger in a fight against any other opponents that low-tech infantry?
Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.
Obviously. There's a million pitfalls to being a mercenary and this is one of them; but at the same time this is handwaved into a workable mercenary business in the BT universe by ComStar and later the MRBC being a fair arbitrator of mercenary affairs. So we can expect suitable clauses in the fine print of the standard MRB/MRBC forms. You can still lose a lot (right down to your life) but fear of being dispossessed won't keep you from mercing out this way.
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the only things that stand out to me for heirloom status are 1: not possessed of any critical design flaws that would impede maintain it (Stares meaningfully at a Clint) 2: not boasting any sort of highly valuable function where the military would feel the need to force turnover of the 'mech for the good of the state (like the Rifleman's anti-air radar).
But i'd bet most 'mechs that are maintained for a long time by a family would be medium or light 'mechs with a good nod to range and mobility, to better let them retreat as needed to avoid losing the 'mech to damage. most heavy and assault 'mechs would mostly be too expensive to keep up with being that they're frequently placed on the front lines. sure you might find things like the Goliath or Banshee sometimes, but an Awesome is gonna end up expensive to repair fast and i'd bet a private owner that needs to maintain their own ride for combat would see some real advantages in a deal to swap it for a Griffion if it means they can get a deal in supplies for a while and the state gets to fill out their assault forces.
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I could totally see a stock Banshee being handed down again, and again, and again... ::)
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I think there would be tons of Wasps and Stingers that were heirloom mechs.
First of all, you've got to think about how they're being used. If that Wasp is all that stands between you and being dispossessed, then you aren't going to risk it unless you have to. You are on a scouting mission and you see a Phoenix Hawk on the horizon? You radio back that you've located the enemy, and you are disengaging. You are going to stay like 3 mapsheets away if you can help it at all, and the closer he gets the more you are going to try to break LOS and get the hell out of there. Of course, the Phoenix Hawk pilot is likewise not especially keen to engage you, because his mech is an heirloom as well. If he knows you've got a Griffin about 5 miles back, he's only gonna chase you so far.
Most of your Wasp's actual battles are going to be things like this: 3 squads of rebels are trying to raid a supply depot. They have some trucks that they've bolted armor panels onto. Show up, blast the trucks, pick off the rebels with your medium laser, and if one of them has a missile launcher shoot him first. Then return for repairs. 99% of your fights are extremely low intensity. The only time you willingly engage another mech is when you think you're going to win (which is very infrequent for a Wasp pilot).
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Some mechs are more survivable than others. Some have too little armor, some go too slow, some are just too big a threat to not draw copious amounts of aggro.
For example, I'd expect more Marauders to survive to be handed down than Warhammers. Warhammer is an infighter with far too little armor on the legs, with more ammo bombs. Marauder wants to stay in the mid-range and snipe.
What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?
Not:
Wasps, stingers - Anything that dies to a single large laser needs to be off the list
Jenner - Just has nothing going for it survival-wise except speed.
Hunchback - Needs to get in people's face. Not fast enough to get out.
Rifleman, jagermech - At least they're mid-liners, but that's not enough to save them.
Victor - As with the hunchback, but with thin armor for it's size.
Things I'd expect to live forever
Valkyrie - lives in the backline, mobile, decent armor
Griffins - same, but better.
Ostsol- flashbulbs, fast.
Archers - Backliners with very heavy armor
Grasshoppers - just need to ditch the LRM ammo...
Awesome - most irritating thing to kill in 3025.
What do you think?
Heirlooms
Marauders (Even with the paltry armor)
Warhammers (Especially the 6D with extra Armor)
Thunderbolts (Zombie Mech all around)
These three are more than likely tough and valuable enough to last long enough to be passed to the next generation.
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Wasps, Stingers, and Locusts could easily become heirloom mechs simply for the fact that they're not big threats on a battlefield and consequently not priority targets.
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Archer. 100k produced. Some of those need to be in family hands.
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I don't think anyone would question that assertion...
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I could totally see a stock Banshee being handed down again, and again, and again... ::)
I totally see that. "should we invite Chaucy on the raid?", "No man, he has that stupid banshee that he thinks is the shiznit! and we all know we would be better served by filling that extra dropship bay with ammo and TP"
Reminds me of a kid that was given an old station wagon in high school and spent his time talking about how it was hotter than a camero…
So even though his mech is 400 years old, it has seen exactly 3 battles
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(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/that70sshow/images/c/cd/Vistacruiser.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20111106025331)
So Eric Forman is a Banshee pilot?
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Warhammers, Tbolts, Archers, Battlemasters, any of the 3025 55 tonners, Centurion, Panther
but post clan invasion, most military went back to profession military so most privae mechs would be in the hands of Mercs
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Imo, any mech made before about 3000ad could be a family mech, when you consider things like warriors being rewarded some land and title to their ride in return for merit. But i suspect many would have been former SLDF machines originally. Also that if lost, a family mechwarrior probably got priority on anything salvaged, which could mean ending up with a bit of a white elephant.
Post clans the family/personal mech still exists, but it mostly appears in relation to higher nobility and war heroes.
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Probably a misunderstanding, as RifleMech wrote above.
Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.
No he's saying that some mechs, like I did earlier, that some mechs have a greater availability of spare parts than others. There's far more Wasps than there are Scoprions so it'd be easier for a family to keep a Wasp functioning than it would be a Scorpion. That said Scorpions can be a family mech. There's one in 3025. There's also a Stinger LAM that's a family mech.
I don't see why. It wouldn't require a great Wasp pilot to take over a neighborhood. I'm also not sure how well trained the pilot would need to be to run away in the face of bigger opposition. Breaking contact in a Wasp after taking a hit from a large laser might require a better pilot though.
True, there's always ways a family could lose their mech with no replacement. That's why being dispossessed was a big fear for mech pilots. They'd even take mech to avoid being without one.
This on the other hand is fundamentally unworkable with what we are shown of how the BT universe works with regards to parts for 'Mechs, the more specific you make 'Mech parts to make this argument work, the less variety there will be in actualy 'Mech designs.
Care to explain? You can rule a periphery planet with a Wasp. Why would you put the 'Mech in danger in a fight against any other opponents that low-tech infantry?
You might not have any choice but to fight someone in another, heavier, 'Mech, the lighter your 'Mech the sooner it happens. Take your example of a Periphery planet, when someone in a Phoenix Hawk shows up you options are run, if you can, or die fighting him.
Obviously. There's a million pitfalls to being a mercenary and this is one of them; but at the same time this is handwaved into a workable mercenary business in the BT universe by ComStar and later the MRBC being a fair arbitrator of mercenary affairs. So we can expect suitable clauses in the fine print of the standard MRB/MRBC forms. You can still lose a lot (right down to your life) but fear of being dispossessed won't keep you from mercing out this way.
A system where it is noted that the majority of companies fail. If you can your buddies form a merc company with your 'Mechs, if you get your 'Mech shot out from under you, you likely aren't getting a new one, and the large units that are properly constructed with the resources to actually provide one may not be hiring guys like you.
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Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.
The Wasp is IIRC the single most common mech in the Inner Sphere. Replacement parts for one are going to be very easy to come by: everybody's got the mech so everybody's going to be making parts for it. The Scorpion, by comparison, is extremely rare and as a quad it uses a bunch of parts that are radically unlike those used by any other mech. Parts are going to be far, far harder to come by and consequently more expensive.
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Pretty much any mech could be a family mech. While heavies and assaults are bigger targets, they're also tougher, and lighter mechs won't cross them, even if they're heaviily damaged. Lights exist in greater numbers, while mediums are tougher and even more numerous.
What it ultimately comes down to though is: Is the mech in question still in production? Or at least still having parts made?
If so, then you're more likely to see them as heirlooms. Time and attrition would wear away at the numbers of OoP designs, reducing the likely hood of encountering one. Meanwhile, bug mechs are built in enough numbers to keep them in circulation, even if the pilots get stuck fighting things they shouldn't.
Most common however, would be either trooper mediums, who's numbers and tough armor keeps them going in the face of what they might run into, such as vindicators, enforcers, and centurions, or the four 55s (Griffin, Shadowhawk, Wolverine, and Dervish), which can outfight most things lighter, and outrun anything they can't fight easily.
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The Wasp is IIRC the single most common mech in the Inner Sphere. Replacement parts for one are going to be very easy to come by: everybody's got the mech so everybody's going to be making parts for it. The Scorpion, by comparison, is extremely rare and as a quad it uses a bunch of parts that are radically unlike those used by any other mech. Parts are going to be far, far harder to come by and consequently more expensive.
Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.
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Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).
I haven't been through the whole thread, but didn't the SLDF let mechwarriors and pilots who were mustering out purchase their units? That would be one way to get a 'Mech.
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Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.
This on the other hand is fundamentally unworkable with what we are shown of how the BT universe works with regards to parts for 'Mechs, the more specific you make 'Mech parts to make this argument work, the less variety there will be in actualy 'Mech designs.
Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.
The Wasp has been in production since it was introduced. The Scorpion hadn't been produced since the 2nd Succession War. By 3025 Houses were scrapping Scorpions for parts. Steiner completed scrapping in 3026. House Davion started scrapping Scorpions in 3039.
The Family Scorpion I mentioned above was to be scrapped but the pilot left to be a merc. Kuritan Scorpion pilots are being told in 3025 that their mechs won't get more parts. So yes it's easier to get Wasp parts than it is to get Scorpion parts. That doesn't mean they're not unobtainable. Scrapped mechs and salvage make parts available for mechs with no factory production. One could also fabricate replacement parts if one has enough money. The questions are does one have the c-bills for the parts and does one want to spend it? The Houses have the money but don't spend it. The Merc with the family mech had the money and used. Still, even if one can get the parts it could take a while to do so. The mech could be in need of repairs for a while before new parts can be obtained.
There is a another option. If parts can't be found or made one could turn the Scorpion into a FrankenMech. It wouldn't surprise me if some Scorpion pilots did just that. However, you need good techs to do that and good techs require money. You'd also be making an already rough ride even rougher, unless you use matching legs.
You might not have any choice but to fight someone in another, heavier, 'Mech, the lighter your 'Mech the sooner it happens. Take your example of a Periphery planet, when someone in a Phoenix Hawk shows up you options are run, if you can, or die fighting him.
A system where it is noted that the majority of companies fail. If you can your buddies form a merc company with your 'Mechs, if you get your 'Mech shot out from under you, you likely aren't getting a new one, and the large units that are properly constructed with the resources to actually provide one may not be hiring guys like you.
True there might not be a choice but to fight then that's a risk a mechwarrior takes.
True you might not get a new one. Even house pilots might not get a new mech. That's why being disposed is a fear. That is also a risk a mechwarrrior takes.
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The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?
The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive. The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated. If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.
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The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?
The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive. The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated. If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.
I think the answer would be how valuable that unit is to the house? If they're important the House will spend the time and money to repair the unit. If they're not important then they won't. LAMs were important so they did. Scorpions weren't so they didn't.
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Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.
It depends who you are.
If I'm Duke Jerkface in the year 3035, and I have 10 regiments of mechs, and have to decide what mechs to try and obtain, then I'm not going to focus on the Scorpion. If my men happen to stumble across a functional one, that's fine. But if I only have one in my entire force, at a certain point it gets easier to just scrap the thing and replace it. I'm not going to make any special effort to keep it going if there's a better replacement available.
On the other hand, let's say I'm Farmer Jones' son. One year we have a real dry spell, and the pond in the old back pasture starts to dry up. Oh look, there's a metal thing sticking up out of the dirt in what had been the bottom of the pond. We dig it up and find out it's a Scorpion battlemech. 100 years ago or more some guy failed a piloting roll, fell into the water, his cockpit breached, and he drowned. Now I've got a fully functional battlemech just as soon as I can replace the electronics inside (or maybe just dry them out if they're milspec). To me, that Scorpion represents extreme social mobility. I can go from some poor farmer's son, to a nobleman if things work out okay. But this is my only mech. No matter how bad it sucks, I'm going to do everything in my power to make it work again. Then I probably need to join a merc unit or something to legitimize my find.
Thinking of it that way, I'd say that as time goes by (and the tech recovery starts), the weird rare mechs are more likely to be heirlooms than to appear in regular House units. As soon as House Davion has an option to get rid of that last handful of Clints, they probably will. Scrap that sucker and replace it with another Enforcer or something. But to people where that's their only mech, it's worth any effort to keep it operational.
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even better, foist those Clint's (or Scorpions or whatever) off on some newly elevated lower nobility so that the nobles have to pay the costs of maintaining it and you still get the option of calling them up for military service when you need extra mechs.
though in terms of spare parts i suspect that there are few parts that can't be adapted from something else.. we've seen often that myomers, gyros, T&T systems, etc. can be macguyverred to work with mechs that they were not manufactured for. so even if that Scorpion doesn't have an intact factory any more, odds are a lot of its non-structural parts can be replaced by taking parts off other mechs then reworked to have the right adaptors and software patches and such. and even structural stuff can probably be fixed with custom tooled parts.
would it be more expensive? yeah. (mechs like the scorpion, clint, etc should really have the "non-standard parts' quirk during the succession wars) but it would be doable. and all the more reason to get those mechs into the hands of nobility or mercenaries rather than let them become hanger queens in a military unit.
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The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?
The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive. The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated. If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.
The otherside of your first argument though is when resources outstrip production capacity. If you have the resources to make X mechs, but only have the capacity to build x-y mechs, then you have y resources that can be used to update and repair harder to service, but still useful machines. This goes away if you can build more factories/production lines, but that hasn't been the case for the Inner Sphere for most of the succession wars.
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The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?
The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive. The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated. If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.
The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.
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The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.
Partially correct. It can use SOME existing parts. Try finding a set of front leg actuators for a 55 ton 'Mech that DIDN'T come from a Scorpion, because the front and rear legs are structurally different. I'm pretty sure that there are some other sub-systems unique to the design (for example, the engine isn't shared by the other 55 tonners), although other items can be substituted easily enough (or in some cases regardless of the difficulty) with sufficient quantities of whatever pass for duct tape and chewing gum in the 31st Century.
As said, there comes a point in most armies where it costs more to repair or maintain the old beast than to replace it with a currently manufactured machine. Eventually, the difficulties of servicing adapted or custom-made replacement systems, aging equipment that can't be replaced, and other increases in expense and difficulty begin to multiply, and the unit becomes unreliable in combat or simply unrepairable. For the local noble who can't get a replacement 'Mech without being on a 30 year waiting list, the point where you need to scrap it (or sell it to someone who is willing to maintain it at any price) is a lot further down the road than for a well-financed top-tier military unit, and likely to be somewhere in between for a militia unit or reasonably successful mercenaries.
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plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!
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plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!
and send your agents to hunt down and purchase as many crates as they can find.
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Well, a good machine shop should be able to build about anything given time and materials. The problem is when its exotic materials to create the replacement as part of the creation of the material. Some alloys are only formed grudgingly from their constituent parts, so you end up having the metals separate b/c they get heated by a cutting torch or laser cutter, so the material changes properties.
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Sometimes buying parts is cheapest. Just because you can build something doesn’t make it the best option. It also denies your enemies and rivals who might need them the resources
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plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!
Merlin would probably be a bad example here, since it is so new that parts certainly would be available.
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What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?
Not:
....
To me, a piece of military hardware goes from being a weapon or whatever to an heirloom when its primary function is ceremonial/decorative.
Thus, I don’t understand all these restrictions on what an heirloom ‘mech should be.
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May not be the best term for it, but I am not sure we have a better one for a weapon that is handed down through generations. I think the general agreement is that it does not blow up if looked at cross-wise and has a chance to escape bad situations. General parts availability is a plus.
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The otherside of your first argument though is when resources outstrip production capacity. If you have the resources to make X mechs, but only have the capacity to build x-y mechs, then you have y resources that can be used to update and repair harder to service, but still useful machines. This goes away if you can build more factories/production lines, but that hasn't been the case for the Inner Sphere for most of the succession wars.
That's why salvage is such a big deal during the succession wars. It's another source of parts besides maxed out factories.
The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.
If there's a factory making parts then a unit isn't obsolete. You're also limited in what parts you can use from existing units on obsolete ones. The only body locations that can be used from a Wasp to rebuild a Scorpion are the side torsos and head. This is because the Scorpion is heavier than the Wasp and a Quad. You'd have to take legs off another 55 ton mech to replace a Scorpions legs.
Partially correct. It can use SOME existing parts. Try finding a set of front leg actuators for a 55 ton 'Mech that DIDN'T come from a Scorpion, because the front and rear legs are structurally different. I'm pretty sure that there are some other sub-systems unique to the design (for example, the engine isn't shared by the other 55 tonners), although other items can be substituted easily enough (or in some cases regardless of the difficulty) with sufficient quantities of whatever pass for duct tape and chewing gum in the 31st Century.
As said, there comes a point in most armies where it costs more to repair or maintain the old beast than to replace it with a currently manufactured machine. Eventually, the difficulties of servicing adapted or custom-made replacement systems, aging equipment that can't be replaced, and other increases in expense and difficulty begin to multiply, and the unit becomes unreliable in combat or simply unrepairable. For the local noble who can't get a replacement 'Mech without being on a 30 year waiting list, the point where you need to scrap it (or sell it to someone who is willing to maintain it at any price) is a lot further down the road than for a well-financed top-tier military unit, and likely to be somewhere in between for a militia unit or reasonably successful mercenaries.
When it comes to replacing individual Scorpion leg actuators with actuators from another design I don't think they'd do that. They'd have to redesign the entire limb to get it to work and I think you'd still end up with a rougher ride. It'd might be easier to just replace the entire limb that just the actuator. Either way as long as the rest of the limb works I think the pilot would just have to live with it and hope it doesn't suffer more actuator damage.
And it does happen in canon where a House will sell a mech that they deem no longer worth repairing. Even when the unit is still in production. There's an example in SB: Sword and Dragon. A family bought a mech the House scrapped and rebuilt it. I think it's a Javelin.
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It actually is possible to modify a mech's internal structure to make a peace fit on a chassis of a different size. The Cataphract, Marauder II, and numerous Frankenmechs demonstrate that.
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Anything could survive to be passed down, even the most fragile models. Some mechs were made in such large numbers that keeping them repaired would be easy, no matter how many times it needed to be dragged from the field.
A mechwarrior may not be thrilled with inheriting an old Stinger or Jenner, but it's better than nothing.
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You can't inherit confetti, which is pretty much explicitly what happens if an unCASEed ammo bin gets hit. Strategic operations, 175.
Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.
Thus, why I think some some mechs would be inherited in frequency out of proportion to their extant numbers. A lot more Wasps would be inherited than Grasshoppers. A much higher percentage of Grasshoppers would be multi-generation.
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It actually is possible to modify a mech's internal structure to make a peace fit on a chassis of a different size. The Cataphract, Marauder II, and numerous Frankenmechs demonstrate that.
I don't think the Marauder II would be a FrankenMech since it was a new Mech based on plans of the Marauder. The Cataphract Prototype though was a FrankenMech that used parts made for other mechs. It was also produced in a factory though which I think sets it apart from the majority of FrankenMechs. The Cataphract had to have the internal structure altered to be lighter or heavier depending the body location. Most FrankenMechs just use the limbs as they are.
Anything could survive to be passed down, even the most fragile models. Some mechs were made in such large numbers that keeping them repaired would be easy, no matter how many times it needed to be dragged from the field.
A mechwarrior may not be thrilled with inheriting an old Stinger or Jenner, but it's better than nothing.
The Mech inherited might not resemble what it did when it first walked off the factory floor though.
You can't inherit confetti, which is pretty much explicitly what happens if an unCASEed ammo bin gets hit. Strategic operations, 175.
Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.
Thus, why I think some some mechs would be inherited in frequency out of proportion to their extant numbers. A lot more Wasps would be inherited than Grasshoppers. A much higher percentage of Grasshoppers would be multi-generation.
Being splody depends on if the ammo bin suffers a hit or not. Also a mech with one leg missing isn't dead. It can still move. I also think that most Bug Pilots would not tangle with more heavily opponents and would retreat when damaged. I know sometimes it doesn't happen but if Bug Mechs died so quickly I don't think they'd still exist in such high numbers.
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Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.
Assertion:
A wasp/stinger is just as capable of being passed onto the next generation as a more combat effective ‘mech. In fact, I would actually say that a wasp/stinger has more chance to become an heirloom since most people wouldn’t want to risk putting them in the thick of battle like they would a marauder.
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I don't think the Marauder II would be a FrankenMech since it was a new Mech based on plans of the Marauder. The Cataphract Prototype though was a FrankenMech that used parts made for other mechs. It was also produced in a factory though which I think sets it apart from the majority of FrankenMechs. The Cataphract had to have the internal structure altered to be lighter or heavier depending the body location. Most FrankenMechs just use the limbs as they are.
The point is that it's canonically possible to refit a mech using limbs from a different mech, even if the donor doesn't match the tonnage of the base mech. There's another example in Record Sheets: Unique Mechs- a Gunslinger that got refitted with the right arms from a pair of Zeuses, meaning that it's not only possible to refit a mech with arms from a different mech, it's also possible to stick a right arm onto a mech in place of a left arm.
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Being splody depends on if the ammo bin suffers a hit or not. Also a mech with one leg missing isn't dead. It can still move. I also think that most Bug Pilots would not tangle with more heavily opponents and would retreat when damaged. I know sometimes it doesn't happen but if Bug Mechs died so quickly I don't think they'd still exist in such high numbers.
As a war gamer, I think its funny when BT players have no concept of reconnaissance units. My first character played a light mech pilot in a mercenary unit and led their recon lance. He was employed as a merc for 10 years and NEVER fired his weapons in combat. He was in dozens of battles but he was recon, doing his job properly. His mech was in his family for five generations. Most of the Bug Mechs are light, fast machines designed for recon duties, not as battlefield workhorses.
In every campaign, I place a priority on blinding my opponent, which means taking out his recon elements. If the enemy cannot track my movements or determine my numbers, I will be able to choose when, where and the conditions of battle. Recon elements are the most valuable units when a campaign starts and remain valuable until the last shot.
Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.
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As a war gamer, I think its funny when BT players have no concept of reconnaissance units. My first character played a light mech pilot in a mercenary unit and led their recon lance. He was employed as a merc for 10 years and NEVER fired his weapons in combat. He was in dozens of battles but he was recon, doing his job properly. His mech was in his family for five generations. Most of the Bug Mechs are light, fast machines designed for recon duties, not as battlefield workhorses.
In every campaign, I place a priority on blinding my opponent, which means taking out his recon elements. If the enemy cannot track my movements or determine my numbers, I will be able to choose when, where and the conditions of battle. Recon elements are the most valuable units when a campaign starts and remain valuable until the last shot.
Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.
Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.
Assertion:
A wasp/stinger is just as capable of being passed onto the next generation as a more combat effective ‘mech. In fact, I would actually say that a wasp/stinger has more chance to become an heirloom since most people wouldn’t want to risk putting them in the thick of battle like they would a marauder.
Look at the number of bugs in the earliest products. Here. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64461.0) That's four bugs in the black widows and just as many in the foxes teeth. Elite units.
Bugs are too common for them to be relegated to recon duties. Unfortunate, but even spotting duty puts them in the line of fire.
Edit - Bugs used as intended would survive forever. Bugs used expediently would die horribly. My read is that by 3025 there's no choice but to use them expediently or run the risk of losing a battle to somebody who does.
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Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.
:: shrugs ::
The game doesn’t always model the universe lore perfectly.
There’s no real incentive for a clan player to use zellbrigen, but the lack of incentive in the game doesn’t mean that the concept of zellbrigen doesn’t exist or is rarely practiced.
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Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.
I find set games boring. Playing to win without consequences is easy, especially after I figure out what I have to kill to score the most points. My group has run several campaigns that put all of the players' war gaming skills and doctrines to the test, including playing under enemy radio jamming of the entire battlefield, or as insurgents on a blockaded planet. I'll tell you, the set battle players never did well in the long campaigns, because they threw their units into the first battles and left it up to the dice to decide the outcome. I once captured one of the enemy upper level commanders and thought it would be better to release him, he was so incompetent.
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we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop
you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.
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Shouldn't be too hard for a GM. Good recon work (from players or OpFor) results in either less or weaker enemy forces in future battles. Failure to stop enemy recon results in more concentrated assaults or lack of reinforcements. Failure in or not performing recon results in ambushes or desired target not found.
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Two things to consider:
1) In fiction, mechs are damn near indestructible.
2) On the table top, players pound mechs into oblivion
So allot of mech 'could' be inherited as long as the pilots are ready to break off from a fight vs pull a might python and attempt to kick his opponent to death after losing both limbs and all their weapons.
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we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop
you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.
You don't have to be Patton. Making realistic scenarios require some knowledge of reality. I've run campaigns where I've taken hours to do the research and select the forces and print out all the necessary sheets, in order to challenge my players. Few people want to devote that much time but I highly recommend it, because designing scenarios makes for better players.
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You don't have to be Patton. Making realistic scenarios require some knowledge of reality. I've run campaigns where I've taken hours to do the research and select the forces and print out all the necessary sheets, in order to challenge my players. Few people want to devote that much time but I highly recommend it, because designing scenarios makes for better players.
I remember what it was like to be 20 with no responsibilities.
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At this point, I'm waiting to be retired with no responsibilities...
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Yeah things are usually better when you can devote more time. You can still make scenarios 95% players will enjoy in a fraction of the time. I’d venture to say most people I’ve played with would be turned off by that level of depth. It’s not necessarily a skill most people want or want to be good at. Fun can still be had even if you’re a scrub
I remember what it was like to be 20 with no responsibilities.
Ha. I was busier in college than after. I basically gave up games of all stripes until 2005 when graduated.
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The point is that it's canonically possible to refit a mech using limbs from a different mech, even if the donor doesn't match the tonnage of the base mech. There's another example in Record Sheets: Unique Mechs- a Gunslinger that got refitted with the right arms from a pair of Zeuses, meaning that it's not only possible to refit a mech with arms from a different mech, it's also possible to stick a right arm onto a mech in place of a left arm.
I agree that there are canon units that were built out of others. There is a difference though between having a factory rebuild the internal structure and cobbling things together in a Mech Bay.
A production "FrankenMech" has an internal structure of the correct tonnage for its weight class. It can also mount the max armor in its class.
The weight of a true FrankenMech's internal structure depends entirely upon the weight of the donated structures. A Wolverine arm structure weighs .5 tons. A Marauder arm weighs .75 tons. The difference in weight can mean the removal of items or armor. Also the amount of armor is dependent on that of the donor. A Marauder can carry more armor than a Wolverine.
Its also why you can't just stick a Wasp's leg onto a Scorpion without having a Matar moment.
(snip)
Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.
That's why most bug mechs aren't going to tangle with heaver opponents if they don't have to and then not any longer than they have to.
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By the time of the Clan Invasion, and beyond, family owned mechs are the minority.
That's a bit too much of a reversal I think.
10 Years of increased factory production allowed the Houses to expand their rosters by a few regiments each but they didn't double in size or anything.
There were still plenty of family mechs in service at the start of the clan invasion.
Now the invasion itself, and the next 20 years of civil war & jihad........ THAT might have reversed it because at that point nearly everything had been wrecked.
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Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.
It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.
I find set games boring. Playing to win without consequences is easy, especially after I figure out what I have to kill to score the most points. My group has run several campaigns that put all of the players' war gaming skills and doctrines to the test, including playing under enemy radio jamming of the entire battlefield, or as insurgents on a blockaded planet. I'll tell you, the set battle players never did well in the long campaigns, because they threw their units into the first battles and left it up to the dice to decide the outcome. I once captured one of the enemy upper level commanders and thought it would be better to release him, he was so incompetent.
we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop
you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.
Shouldn't be too hard for a GM. Good recon work (from players or OpFor) results in either less or weaker enemy forces in future battles. Failure to stop enemy recon results in more concentrated assaults or lack of reinforcements. Failure in or not performing recon results in ambushes or desired target not found.
Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.
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i'd rather not play than play non computer-assisted double blind. the conceit of a recon scenario is that it's a scenario - something is going to happen.
the potentially boring recon more suited for fast hovers, vtols, or infantry has already been done and the PC's mission is "hey, there's stuff here. find out what." the objectives might include finding hidden units, triggering certain enemy elements to enter the field, scanning buildings, trying to locate an enemy commander, etc. the results then carry over to the next mission, which immediately follows the recon events. the scope and abstraction of the game itself make the missions themselves abstractions as well. i can usually get 8-12 turns into three hours depending on what's going on and that minute and a half to two minutes can't possibly be accurately representative of what would "actually" happens.
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i'd rather not play than play non computer-assisted double blind. the conceit of a recon scenario is that it's a scenario - something is going to happen.
the potentially boring recon more suited for fast hovers, vtols, or infantry has already been done and the PC's mission is "hey, there's stuff here. find out what." the objectives might include finding hidden units, triggering certain enemy elements to enter the field, scanning buildings, trying to locate an enemy commander, etc. the results then carry over to the next mission, which immediately follows the recon events. the scope and abstraction of the game itself make the missions themselves abstractions as well. i can usually get 8-12 turns into three hours depending on what's going on and that minute and a half to two minutes can't possibly be accurately representative of what would "actually" happens.
Ah, well from my read of the situation is that Mohammed As`Zaman Bey wants to be able to play that part of finding that stuff to investigate, which I wouldn't consider scouting, reconnaissance in force, but not scouting.
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It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.
Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.
The role of the scout is to find and report back on things that the forces to which they are attached do not know the exact location or composition of at the time that they are scouting. Most scouts want to not be seen, something that is not always possible and sometimes not even desirable (if they are bait for a trap, for instance).
You tend to use lighter forces in this role because they are most often quick and mobile enough to get out of any traps your enemy has laid, or expendable enough that their loss is not crippling, or because they tend to be the forces that have the sensors and communication packages that allow them to do this job better than any other.
Ruger
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Ruger, the problem is that a 'Mech is two stories tall and clearly a military asset, compare that to a pair of guys in a SUV, much less likely to be seen, and even if they are seen the other side might not realize that they've been spotted.
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Ruger, the problem is that a 'Mech is two stories tall and clearly a military asset, compare that to a pair of guys in a SUV, much less likely to be seen, and even if they are seen the other side might not realize that they've been spotted.
I don’t disagree with what you are saying, just putting forward a different take on things. Besides, how many of those pair of guys in an SUV have the sensors and comm gear of a ‘Mech? What about chances of survival when coming on enemy forces unexpectedly?
Edit: if this discussion continues, maybe it should be broken off to its own thread?
Ruger
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Given how poorly sensors and comm gear is defined in BT, it's quite possible that they mount the same. As for an enemy attack, the role of scouts when that happens is to run, not engage the enemy. Even if for some you need the scouts to get into a fight, the Bugs are still too light, the US Army's M3 is about 30 tons, so that should set a minimum tonnage for scout 'Mechs.
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At this point, I'm waiting to be retired with no responsibilities...
At 62, I'm good...but due for bypass surgery tomorrow, so I may be gone for a bit, unless I
get my laptop working...
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It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.
Play a Clan unit, a 1,000 lb gorilla bumbling around the strategic map, and find the enemy without scouting elements. When you do, it will be on the enemy's terms. BT was conceptualized around having no infantry or vehicles -those were afterthoughts and if you have played long enough, the rules have finally caught up to the reality: Mechs no longer rule the battlefield. They are still powerful, but no longer all-powerful, as they once were.
Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.
I've played out a recon scenario where the appearance of a recon lance just to locate and count the enemy's numbers sent the enemy commander into a panic. He thought he'd be pounded by artillery and dispersed his units, dismounted his infantry to dig in and prepared for a field battle that never happened... My recon lance observed the enemy for the two hours it took for them to realize that they weren't under attack and shadowed the unit until they reached the series of prepared ambushes in their path.
The OPFOR commander had no clue that he was only encountering a recon lance, his briefing gave him an idea of the forces defending the planet and a town to secure. The GM made the scenario for the light lance members to practice, and participate in the merc contract, other than by making a few rolls and doling out experience at the end of the contract.
None of the recon units fired a shot. They stayed well out of range and once the enemy was close enough for the Long Toms to reach them, the recon/scouts did what they did best; they stayed out of combat.
Recon isn't just running around and looking for stuff. If you are ahead of the main body, you map terrain features, river crossings, etc. You locate and mark minefields and occasionally, you may encounter dug-in forces, which you also report. If a recon unit encounters enemy recon elements, their job may become screening: Prevent the enemy from locating, counting and reporting the main body. Usually, its a stand off, with the enemy recon backing off, but aggressive recon units may want to get past you and you may actually have to fight, which is rare, although mechs like the Hussar shine in this instance. Despite its fragility, its speed and offensive capabilities boost its ability to survive against mechs of similar weight...and this discussion is about what survives.
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Any mech that lost the production factories before the year 3000 can be an heirloom mech.
So I’ll mention the one I think people are missing. You can correct me if I’m wrong on it.
The Catapult.
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Any mech can be an heirloom mech. I'm defining that as a mech that gets passed down from generation to generation, securing your status as a mechwarrior.
Really common mechs have lots of spare parts, so they can be passed down successfully.
Really uncommon mechs are harder to find spares for, but there are also a lot fewer people looking, and you can often find things that will kinda sorta fit.
Big tough mechs can survive a lot of punishment, so they can get passed down.
Fast and fragile mechs avoid combat, so they can get passed down.
Laser-based mechs don't have a lot of ammo-bombs, so they are more likely to survive.
Ammo-based mechs will withdraw from combat earlier, so they are more likely to survive.
You can basically come up with any justification you want to explain why your family has got a particular mech.
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You can basically come up with any justification you want to explain why your family has got a particular mech.
Exactly. There can be any reasoning behind how a particular mech was preserved by a family. It could also be fresh off the assembly line and handed to a favorite nephew.
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Can any mech be passed down? Yes, obviously, that's spelled out both in background and gameplay.
But a crusader is less likely to be passed down than a thunderbolt. More armour, better crit padding and better cooling in pretty much any band just up its chances of survival.
Stalkers are less likely to survive generations than Awesome. (Front) armour is comparable, but the ammo bombs would make the difference.
Griffin VS Wolverine, I'd expect the griffin to last longer; griffins are mid- to backliners that are notoriously hard to catch, especially in the succession war era. Wolverine have a mid-range gun and the same mobility, but are ultimately expected to get in peoples face.
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If it’s my family mech, the one that ensures I’ve got a place among the nobility? You can bet I’m gonna fight with it differently.
That Crusader is gonna live as long as possible, because I’m firing those LRMs on 11s and 12s. As soon as my torso armor gets breached, I withdraw.
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If it’s my family mech, the one that ensures I’ve got a place among the nobility? You can bet I’m gonna fight with it differently.
That Crusader is gonna live as long as possible, because I’m firing those LRMs on 11s and 12s. As soon as my torso armor gets breached, I withdraw.
Enjoy your court martial for cowardice in the face of the enemy
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Torso armor breached. Saving a useful asset for the House. I do not see him as specially coward given that he was there until his machine was in risk of being totally lost. Shoting on 11's might get him smacked for waste of ammo and low on spares priority.
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There's also the matter of him frittering away his limited ammo on minimal-probability potshots. It is the combination that would do him in, IMHO
Although since everyone else is doing the same thing late 3rd war, maybe not.
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forced withdrawal is well past fluff - it's codified in the rules and hard-baked into the universe across the timeline
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A thought occurs. Without the benefits of CASE, dumping ammo after suffering heavy damage may have been a *lot* more prevalent during that era. The only "torso bombs" would be the less frequent fluke shots. That itself leads to higher survival.
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In the timeperiod after the 2nd Succession War and before the 4th, it wasn't unusual for mechs to be carrying less than full ammo bins in the first place.
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In the timeperiod after the 2nd Succession War and before the 4th, it wasn't unusual for mechs to be carrying less than full ammo bins in the first place.
Really? Source please. Ver interested!
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There's also the matter of him frittering away his limited ammo on minimal-probability potshots.
I don't even waste rolls using energy weapons. That's for the Green troops...and if any of my command has a torso breach, I order them to withdraw.
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Enjoy your court martial for cowardice in the face of the enemy
That doesn't happen. Why, I'm the son of Baron von Humperdink! And by the Treaty of 2642 of Mudball VI, I've got every right to ensure the status of my noble house. That means I can withdraw from battle.
For the 3rd SW, nobody has a truly modern military. Mechwarriors really are knights, with fiefdoms and allegiances and all that goes with it. Half your regiment is probably made up of minor nobles like me, and if you start court martialing people who protect their mech, every one of those guys is gonna turn on you. It's kinda like a labor union, and everybody is going to go on strike.
Now, somewhere in there will develop an accepted code of conduct. Some guys really are cowards, and if I'm risking my mech I don't want to take up for a guy who ditches his responsibilities and puts me at more risk. But I'm also not gonna be cool with an idiot commander who puts everybody else's family status at risk just because he wants to be a big shot. I don't care if you're the Duke's nephew and he put you in charge of this mech company, if you give stupid orders we're not gonna follow them.
A guy who dumps his Crusader's ammo as soon as that Locust comes running towards him is going to raise eyebrows. Why is he doing that? But taking LRM shots on 9s and 10s is probably standard operating procedure for a Crusader pilot. Everybody knows he's got a torso bomb and he wants those bins empty before he takes any real damage. Nobody is going to blame him for that.
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A guy who dumps his Crusader's ammo as soon as that Locust comes running towards him is going to raise eyebrows. Why is he doing that? But taking LRM shots on 9s and 10s is probably standard operating procedure for a Crusader pilot. Everybody knows he's got a torso bomb and he wants those bins empty before he takes any real damage. Nobody is going to blame him for that.
9s & 10s, yes. But he specified 11s and 12s. That is wasting ammo on the same level as dumping it.
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Depends on the target... 11s and 12s against something really hard to hit (like a Spider) might just be worth it.
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9s & 10s, yes. But he specified 11s and 12s. That is wasting ammo on the same level as dumping it.
I'm the guy who said it initially. My point is that there's a "safe" way to operate a mech where you really minimize the chance of ammo explosion. I don't know whether it's taking shots at 9s and 10s, or 11s and 12s, but I do know that there's a point at which the life expectancy of the Crusader goes way up. Whatever that point is, that's what normal operating procedure becomes.
I would imagine that for many worlds, and many engagements, battles are going to be a lot like that scene from Braveheart. The nobles take the field, they negotiate, then one side leaves without a shot being fired. Now that wouldn't be the case all the time -- sometimes you gotta fight. But if you show up for a battle, and you have a lance and they have a company, and nobody else is around? As long as you aren't hated blood enemies, you withdraw from the field and they go raid that munitions depot.
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Really? Source please. Ver interested!
It was about the limited warfare following the destruction inflicted by the 2nd Succession War: it was very hard to even field an operational mech at all, ammo shortages and inability to repair damage were both pretty common, so mechs were often fielded with damage and partial ammo loads. It's mentioned in various places, someone with a more extensive collection of older sourcebooks than I do might be able to tell you where to look.
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those conditions were part of the reason the 3rd succession war dragged on so long and was so low intensity.
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IIRC, there were entire battles where no one on either side actually fired a shot, it was done with nothing but maneuvering, with the side that found itself outmaneuvered simply conceding the field.
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IIRC, there were entire battles where no one on either side actually fired a shot, it was done with nothing but maneuvering, with the side that found itself outmaneuvered simply conceding the field.
no that was in the 2400's when the (then new) Ares conventions were at full effect.
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no that was in the 2400's when the (then new) Ares conventions were at full effect.
I mean, I could imagine some forces still probably did that without actually saying they did even in the third SW.
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Yeah you could see two mercs facing off and being like
“You good?”
“Yeah the pay is lousy. Depot is six miles west.”
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Play a Clan unit, a 1,000 lb gorilla bumbling around the strategic map, and find the enemy without scouting elements. When you do, it will be on the enemy's terms. BT was conceptualized around having no infantry or vehicles -those were afterthoughts and if you have played long enough, the rules have finally caught up to the reality: Mechs no longer rule the battlefield. They are still powerful, but no longer all-powerful, as they once were
First of all you seem to be playing a game mode that is both a houserule and requires, at minimum, a third player. Secondly just because the game wasn't conceptualized as having infantry or vehicles, doesn't mean they wouldn't exist in-universe.
I've played out a recon scenario where the appearance of a recon lance just to locate and count the enemy's numbers sent the enemy commander into a panic. He thought he'd be pounded by artillery and dispersed his units, dismounted his infantry to dig in and prepared for a field battle that never happened... My recon lance observed the enemy for the two hours it took for them to realize that they weren't under attack and shadowed the unit until they reached the series of prepared ambushes in their path.
The OPFOR commander had no clue that he was only encountering a recon lance, his briefing gave him an idea of the forces defending the planet and a town to secure. The GM made the scenario for the light lance members to practice, and participate in the merc contract, other than by making a few rolls and doling out experience at the end of the contract.
None of the recon units fired a shot. They stayed well out of range and once the enemy was close enough for the Long Toms to reach them, the recon/scouts did what they did best; they stayed out of combat.
Recon isn't just running around and looking for stuff. If you are ahead of the main body, you map terrain features, river crossings, etc. You locate and mark minefields and occasionally, you may encounter dug-in forces, which you also report. If a recon unit encounters enemy recon elements, their job may become screening: Prevent the enemy from locating, counting and reporting the main body. Usually, its a stand off, with the enemy recon backing off, but aggressive recon units may want to get past you and you may actually have to fight, which is rare, although mechs like the Hussar shine in this instance. Despite its fragility, its speed and offensive capabilities boost its ability to survive against mechs of similar weight...and this discussion is about what survives.
This all seems to be scenario play against a GM, which should NOT be the baseline assumption for how most people play, or are welling to play.
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First of all you seem to be playing a game mode that is both a houserule and requires, at minimum, a third player. Secondly just because the game wasn't conceptualized as having infantry or vehicles, doesn't mean they wouldn't exist in-universe.
How do you figure that? The GM used Battleforce rules for strategic maps and larger encounters, we never had to houserule anything.
Yes, infantry and vehicles existed but at the time of the Clan Invasion, the rules rendered them inconsequential on the battlefield. Try playing out the early scenarios using the current rules and you will see a difference.
This all seems to be scenario play against a GM, which should NOT be the baseline assumption for how most people play, or are welling to play.
The GM was always a neutral observer and occasional adjudicator. My gaming group ran the gamut of tactical geniuses to borderline mental ******...but the guy we call ****** has gone to Historicon and never lost a scenario, even in games he's never played before. His IQ may be in the high 70s but he has a solid grasp of tactics that we beat into him over the years. The Historicon people thought he was one of our best players... :))
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A discussion about heirloom mechs are inherently not about standard tabletop play. The fact that most introtech games I've played have ended with 25-50% of all units totally destroyed doesn't say anything about normal 3rdSW warfare.
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Kind of on topic, last night I played about twenty games on Megamek vs the bot (I know, I know) where I took a stock Crusader 3R up against a variety of solid medium mechs. Griffins, Wolverines, Hunchbacks, Vindicators, Centurions, etc. I played at least two to three games against each medium to give a good sample size. In every single case, the Crusader beat the ever living tar out of the mediums. It wasn't even close.
Now, generally I had a BV advantage. And I had a weight advantage. Most of the mediums would have a BV of between 1000 to 1100, while the Crusader was about 1300. 4/5 pilots for everybody. Two random mapsheets. Just a bunch of one-on-one matchups where I start at one side and they start at the other.
What I learned was... quit taking the Crusader up against Thunderbolts and Marauders (I played a few of those too, and they didn't go nearly as well). But if you consider that medium mechs are supposed to be the "average" in 3025, then the Crusader is really powerful, and really survivable. The ammo bomb never came up, because my short ranged firepower was better than theirs, and my armor was better than theirs. Normally they'd be destroyed and I'd just have armor damage (maybe a stripped leg if they got in a kick).
I could definitely see a Crusader lasting a very long time during the 3rd Succession War. You would want to avoid the best heavies one on one, but who wouldn't? If you think of it as a fairly badass overweight medium trooper that can also provide Catapult-level long range/indirect fire, it works great. A Crusader pilot would need a degree of situational awareness -- keep track of where the things that can kill you are -- but really every mech pilot does. If you find yourself in short range combat with a dangerous opponent (or with damaged side torsos) and you've still got LRM ammo left, you did something wrong.
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The good old "Crud" can generally duke it out at long range with anything except a dedicated long-range support 'Mech, and take it up close and personal against anything except a dedicated brawler. If you play it as conservatively as the background would have you behave, or in a campaign where you're not expending valuable assets for marginal advantage simply because they have no value past the end of the battle, it SHOULD be extremely durable.
Problem is, most tabletop games don't work that way, in which case the Crusader's inherent limitations become serious. Rather than withdrawing or having your opponent do so as soon as one side suffers an armor breach, having exchanged fire and satisfied the demands of honor, players inevitably continue the fight to the death or destruction of one or the other.
I also suspect that the Crusader suffers from the same early rules update issue as the Marauder, where several heat sinks were moved from the torso sides, where ammo is stored, into the engine itself, leaving nothing for "crit padding". The designs were never modified to adjust for the suddenly much higher level of risk of ammo explosion.
The one unfixable problem that the "Crud" suffers from in either case is that the main close-in weaponry (SRM racks) are hip-mounted, meaning that the 'Mech can't direct the majority of its considerable forward firepower into a side arc if outflanked.
As for "heirlooms", total production volumes (availability) and the normal ways that one would acquire a family 'Mech in the first place (the decommissioning and selling or awarding of certain designs) would likely be the overriding factors for the likelihood of one design being more prominent than another, with attrition of one design versus another being the third most important consideration.
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I also suspect that the Crusader suffers from the same early rules update issue as the Marauder, where several heat sinks were moved from the torso sides, where ammo is stored, into the engine itself, leaving nothing for "crit padding". The designs were never modified to adjust for the suddenly much higher level of risk of ammo explosion.
correct. it's the example in the battledroids manual for how to fill out the crit chart and has all the sinks in the torsos
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Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust? Why isn't it shooting at the Locust? And why is a Locust rushing to engage a Crusader? Why isn't the Marauder using that AC/5? ???
I get that some weapons do have ammo bombs (Hello Machine Gun) but I wouldn't say larger weapons do, especially not when they share the same bin. I also understand unlucky hits, not being able to withdraw, and surrender not being an option. But out side of those things, why stay in combat when you're mech is so shot up its tanking internal damage? And why at that point does your mech still have a lot of ammo left?
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How do you figure that? The GM used Battleforce rules for strategic maps and larger encounters, we never had to houserule anything.
Yes, infantry and vehicles existed but at the time of the Clan Invasion, the rules rendered them inconsequential on the battlefield. Try playing out the early scenarios using the current rules and you will see a difference.
That's not BattleForce, or at least not the BattleFroce featured in SO, which is my reference point, and likely that of anyone coming to the game.
The GM was always a neutral observer and occasional adjudicator. My gaming group ran the gamut of tactical geniuses to borderline mental ******...but the guy we call ****** has gone to Historicon and never lost a scenario, even in games he's never played before. His IQ may be in the high 70s but he has a solid grasp of tactics that we beat into him over the years. The Historicon people thought he was one of our best players... :))
The problem is that most groups don't have GM's.
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Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust? Why isn't it shooting at the Locust? And why is a Locust rushing to engage a Crusader? Why isn't the Marauder using that AC/5? ???
I get that some weapons do have ammo bombs (Hello Machine Gun) but I wouldn't say larger weapons do, especially not when they share the same bin. I also understand unlucky hits, not being able to withdraw, and surrender not being an option. But out side of those things, why stay in combat when you're mech is so shot up its tanking internal damage? And why at that point does your mech still have a lot of ammo left?
No clue why a Crusader pilot would run from a Locust, rather than light it up with either the LRMs or lasers, depending on range. The Marauder probably CAN'T use up the AC ammo in time to avoid a torso bomb event, because 20 turns of fire is unlikely over the course of most battles; the armor will inevitably run out before the ammo does.
To answer the question about staying in combat when you're "so shot up", 17 points of armor on the torso sides means 1 PPC hit and you're in danger. I've seen too many cases of otherwise nearly pristine 'Mechs with a single location breached by 3-4 successive hits to the same spot, but only 5-10 points of damage in total to the rest of the 'Mech. I had one heavy 'Mech with the CT cored in two rounds of fire, and not a point of damage to the rest of the 'Mech. Do you withdraw when the first location is under 50%, while the rest of the 'Mech is untouched? Do you wait until a location is breached? Whatever your definition of "honor" may be, it probably doesn't involve running away the first time the 'Mech gets scratched. Still, one turn later, it could be scrap metal.
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Why is a Crusader dumping ammo at the first sign of a Locust?
He shouldn't be. I used that as an example of what not to do.
The point was, that in-universe, there would be some accepted level of behavior. You and I don't know exactly what that standard is, but it's not really important for us to know it. It's enough that the characters know it, and follow it.
If I'm piloting a Trebuchet, providing indirect fire support for my company in a city battle, and a Hunchback suddenly smashes through a parking garage 50 meters away from me, what do I do? He turns and points that big AC-20 at me face, what am I expected to do? What's considered honorable, what is foolhardy, and what is cowardice? What we do on the tabletop, when the absolute worst that happens is that your friend gets to laugh at you because your mech died, is different from what the character would do.
Even if that Trebuchet could win that fight (let's say the Hunchback has a damaged foot actuator and the side torso armor is almost stripped), is he expected to brave that AC-20 where a single hit could kill him? Is his survival more important than delivering the last few LRM volleys? I think that in-universe, mechwarriors would have a general understanding about what a mech can handle and what they should run from. You wouldn't be expected to trash your Trebuchet hoping you get lucky and kill that Hunchback. No, just kick in the jump jets and get the hell out of there.
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I think that in-universe, mechwarriors would have a general understanding about what a mech can handle and what they should run from. You wouldn't be expected to trash your Trebuchet hoping you get lucky and kill that Hunchback. No, just kick in the jump jets and get the hell out of there.
and then get cored because you forgot your Treb doesn't have jump jets, apparently.
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That depends on the variant.
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and then get cored because you forgot your Treb doesn't have jump jets, apparently.
Dang it should have used a Dervish.
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That's not BattleForce, or at least not the BattleFroce featured in SO, which is my reference point, and likely that of anyone coming to the game.
It isn't. We play BF2 because we have several sets, some still in shrink wrap.
The problem is that most groups don't have GM's.
The OP is about heirloom mechs and campaigns... if you don't have a GM, the RPG part wouldn't be much of an issue.
Saying you don't have a GM is like saying your group had no leaders. In the absence of leadership eventually one steps forward, the same goes with GMs. Eventually, somebody get bored of set battles and starts designing scenarios or runs a campaign, and I mean a real campaign, not just set battles with some RPG in between them.
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Okay, so the Crusader is an example of what not to do. I'm still not sure why the Marauder wouldn't be shooting at anything that came in range of the AC/5 though and then double tapping when the range got closer. I know the PPCs do more damage but use that ammo up.
As for the Marauder with drawing. I know mechs can die quickly. I hate when that happens. :'( but for me how long they stay in depends on the Mech and the game. A bug Mech would with draw sooner than a Marauder. I'd be willing to risk some internal damage if I had to but I would keep in combat more than I had to. Maybe under some cover?
For the Trebuchet, there's 3 options. Stand and throw everything at it in the hope You kill it before it kills you. Try to get out of the way so his shot misses. Then work on killing it. Charge and hope you knock him out before he does you.
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You really don't want to double tap with a standard AC unless you're about to die anyway.
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You really don't want to double tap with a standard AC unless you're about to die anyway.
True but you don't want to keep your ammo sitting around waiting to blow up either. Especially not without more crit padding.