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BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Alan Grant on 07 August 2012, 17:50:50
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Wars of Reaving, page 80 says.
The master genetic files of Jennifer Winson, Nicholas and Andery Kerensky in the Master Repository were also corrupted and destroyed, effectively removing all traces of the Great Founders’ legacies [save those few non-Wolf warriors still alive –SK] from Clan space.
Emphasis on the part in parenthesis. Assuming there are any warriors of either Kerensky Bloodname House (Blooded or Unblooded) left in Clan space, post-Wars of Reaving, could the Clans reconstruct the Kerensky Bloodname House? They'd be starting with a new "founder" for it, one or more legacies of whoever is left in the modern era. But do you think its possible? Why or why not?
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No need for that,they are just fine,and away from Kerenskys ungrateful Children. }:)
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I think they will more likely find a new demi-god... Stanislov N'buta seems to be a really nice fit based on the Supplemental.
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No need for that,they are just fine,and away from Kerenskys ungrateful Children. }:)
The Home Clans don't know that though- and may try to 'recreate it'.
Vlad's speech to the Council of Six, however, seems pretty confident the Home Clans no longer have access to it.
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The Home Clans don't know that though- and may try to 'recreate it'.
Vlad's speech to the Council of Six, however, seems pretty confident the Home Clans no longer have access to it.
That speech and the wolf actions during Reaving were my favourite from the wolves since Tukayyid
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... Wars of Reaving, could the Clans reconstruct the Kerensky Bloodname House? They'd be starting with a new "founder" for it, one or more legacies of whoever is left in the modern era. But do you think its possible? Why or why not?
The Coyotes have Jennifer Winson's legacy; the Wolves gifted it to them before leaving Clanspace.
As for the Kerenskys, could someone eligible for a Kerensky bloodname have earned the right to create a new bloodname house in an ilKhan's eyes through some heroic act(s) or stunning victory(ies) during or after the Reavings? That's possible, per the precedent set by Phelan Kell/Ward.
But it's not written up as such in WoR, and absent such a feat, I doubt the remaining Homeworld Clans would create a new Kerensky House. Without a Kerenksy whose achievements approach those of Nick/Andery, it's hard to justify dishonoring the Founders with a third Kerensky House based on political considerations alone. There would probably be disdain amongst the Clans for doing that in any era. But post-Reavings, the Homeworld Clans are extremely conservative and closed off culturally. They'd likely see such a politicized proposal as sign of Spheroid taint and call for a Trial of Annihilation (er, Reaving) against the proposer.
Of course, you could always make up such a (likely unblooded to start) Kerensky character -- maybe a mechwarrior knocked unconscious and taken as isorla during the Wolves' epic defense of their genetic reposity on Strana Mechty. That individual could then go on to do great, Aidan Pryde-like things during the Reavings and impress Brett Andrews (less ideally because the decision would be overturned) or one of the Star Adder ilKhans (more ideally because the decision would endure), convincing them to create a new Kerensky House.
But again, absent such a remarkable individual (a ristar who has to shine as bright, if not brighter, than Natasha or Ulric Kerensky), I personally don't see the Clans doing this in any era, and especially post-Reavings.
My 2 C-bills... FWIW...
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Yes, the Home Clans don't have the Founder's legacy, that's correct and in line with what Vlad said and everything else.
But don't you kinda feel like that would leave any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space in an unusual and potentially advantageous situation? First off, if any are left that are bloodnamed, or earn one, they can reconstitute a Bloodname House right there. It might only consist of (I'm literally making these up) Star Adder Star Captain James Kerensky, and Clan Coyote Star Commander Doug Kerensky (who earned their bloodnames in the 3060s), and three unblooded Kerensky warriors who became bondsmen/adopted warriors prior to the Wars of Reaving, but that small group of warriors could do it. It isn't even the creation of a new Bloodname House, its the reconstitution of an existing one.
If, as we've repeatedly been told, having a Bloodname guarantees a place in your Clan's breeding program, then they'd use those. With Clan Wolf gone, what is to stop Clan Star Adder, from creating a sibko with James Kerensky as genemother, and some Truscott as gene-father, and going from there. (after some perfunctory Trial of Possession for their genetic legacies, a formality, a token fight).
By all indications, the BT authors and writers are not doing this with the Home Clans, but I really don't see why they couldn't if those warriors exist. I feel like any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space, who survived the Reaving (maybe they never set foot in the Inner Sphere, being born/raised/serving in the Homeworlds) and are part of the Home Clans and not abjured, would be in a very strong position going forward. They'd be in a position to have a career boost, and their genetic legacy would be greatly desired by all.
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As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).
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The biggest thing stopping the HW Clans from re-establishing the Kerensky Bloodhouse is tradition, or more accurately, the lack thereof. The Clans that are left are like Clan concentrate. They are more Clan than the I.S. Clans (in their eyes, atleast). We have no knowledge of a situation where a blood house was lost, disbanded, destroyed, etc., and then was re-established using surviving members. Also, on the list of things to do for the HW Clans, re-establishing the Kerensky Blood House most likely isn't very high up there.
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As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).
Of an abjured Clan, sure. But Abjured means they don't count, in the eyes of the Homeworld Clans, that means they aren't Clan at all anymore. Not too similar from how Clan Wolf-in-Exile and Clan Nova Cat were/are treated. From the Homeworld perspective. Point in fact, Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintained and used virtually identical copies of their Eugenics Program. The Wolves in Exile no longer needed to adhere to the rules, and the Wolves saw theirs as the valid one.
@Southern Coyote
I agree that there might be problems with tradition and protocol, but I disagree with the statement on priority. We know for example, that their possession of the Winson name has greatly benefited the Coyotes, and the other Clans have fought hard to gain even limited access. Not to mention the ravenous self-destruction fight that resulted during the Wars of Reaving when the IlKhan said "whoever wins gets the Kerensky bloodname". My point being, I feel like it would be a priority, a big priority. And in the Post-Wars of Reaving era, genetic "harvesting" missions, to acquire untained, un-messed with legacies is greater than ever. Demand for good trueborn legacies has shot through the roof.
Really that is the only reason I can think of why the Homeworld Clans wouldn't pursue this, if they had the appropriate Kerensky warriors. The scientists have messed with the DNA of those living Kerensky warriors, and its no good, there's a virus or a potential for one in there, even if it wasn't activated by the Society. They can't risk perpetuating a vulnerability like that.
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But it's not written up as such in WoR, and absent such a feat, I doubt the remaining Homeworld Clans would create a new Kerensky House. Without a Kerenksy whose achievements approach those of Nick/Andery, it's hard to justify dishonoring the Founders with a third Kerensky House based on political considerations alone.
It's not just that either. The only Clan that had the name legitimately was, of course, Wolf. While the Coyotes may have been able to use Andery's paternally, I'd suspect that if they had any Andery legacies available to use, they'd be in the Kerensky Blood Chapel.
Which is no longer around.
Vlad notes that the Wolf backups have also been destroyed. I doubt the Coyotes are allowed to possess a backup of Andery's, otherwise Vlad would have (probably) taken those out too.
Any remaining warriors with Kerensky's Bloodline would be paternal, which, as you pointed out, would require an entire new Bloodhouse to be founded...and even then it wouldn't be a 'Kerensky' Bloodhouse. The Coyote warrior would have no access to claiming the Kerensky Bloodname.
That leaves any remaining Wolf warriors- all the 'still Wolf' warriors were killed in the defense of the Blood Chapel remember, but are now subsequently facing a Trial of Annihilation
So...yeah. I think Vlad was quite thorough in his guarding of the Kerensky Blood Legacies.
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I feel like I'm not making my point. So let me offer a scenario.
Clan Wolf births John, a Kerensky sibko brat born of Ana Kerensky and some other trueborn. John becomes a mechwarrior. At age 25 he earns the Kerensky bloodname in 3060, he serves entirely in the Homeworlds, never seeing the Inner Sphere due to his assignments to the Wolf Clusters defending the Clan's Homeworld Enclaves. In 3063, he's involved in a Trial of Possession against Clan Star Adder and loses. He becomes a bondsman to that Clan. Within a year he is released from his bondcord and becomes a warrior again. He fights for Clan Star Adder now, but of course is still a member of the prestigious Kerensky Bloodname House.
Then the Wars of Reaving happen. Star Captain John Kerensky (Of Clan Star Adder) survives all of this fighting for his new Clan. Having never seen the Inner Sphere, he isn't Reaved. Not being a member of Clan Wolf anymore, he doesn't face abjurement or Annihilation.
What becomes of him now? All of Clan Wolf's Kerensky warriors are gone, but he's still around, can he put out a call to all remaining Kerensky warriors in the Clan Homeworlds to hold a meeting, and elect him the new Bloodname House Leader? Can the Star Adders find a way to justify using his genetic legacy to create sibkos? (which can be acquired with some blood and tissue samples)
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But don't you kinda feel like that would leave any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space in an unusual and potentially advantageous situation? First off, if any are left that are bloodnamed, or earn one, they can reconstitute a Bloodname House right there. It might only consist of (I'm literally making these up) Star Adder Star Captain James Kerensky, and Clan Coyote Star Commander Doug Kerensky (who earned their bloodnames in the 3060s), and three unblooded Kerensky warriors who became bondsmen/adopted warriors prior to the Wars of Reaving, but that small group of warriors could do it. It isn't even the creation of a new Bloodname House, its the reconstitution of an existing one.
This is different than what I was assuming. I was assuming that a new, third Kerensky Bloodhouse would be created in the Homeworlds, with James (or Doug or whoever) Kerensky as its founder. You're assuming that the remaining Homeworld Clans recreate Nick or Andy's (or both's) Bloodhouses using James, Doug, etc. genetic material.
I think there are a couple issues with your scenario:
1) Can a Bloodhouse be legally reconstituted without the legacy of its founder?
2) Even if yes to (1) above, would the Homeworld Clans disregard the actual legacies of the Kerensky brothers?
The Homeworld Clans have abjured the Wolves and the other Clans in the Inner Sphere. But they have not abjured the legacies of the Kerenskys. I don't think the Homeworld Clans are going to disregard the actual legacies of the Kerenskys and establish new ones in their place just because some tainted Wolves have (temporarily) made off with those legacies.
My 2 C-bills is that the only way a Kerensky Bloodhouse will reappear among the Homeworld Clans post-Reavings is if some exceptional Kerensky warrior earns the right to establish a new Bloodhouse or if the Homeworld Clans steal Nick and/or Andy's legacy from the Wolves in the Inner Sphere.
With Clan Wolf gone, what is to stop Clan Star Adder, from creating a sibko with James Kerensky as genemother, and some Truscott as gene-father, and going from there. (after some perfunctory Trial of Possession for their genetic legacies, a formality, a token fight).
This is yet a third possibility -- that a bloodnamed Kerensky left behind and taken isorla in the Homeworlds has his giftake incorporated into a Homeworld Clans' genetic program. Unless a new or old Kerensky bloodhouse is established/reestabled in the Homeworlds, I think this person could only be the genefather. But I don't think anything otherwise prevents a bloodnamed Kerensky in the Homeworlds becoming a (probably highly desirable even if he can't carry on his name) part of the Homeworld genepool.
A fourth possibility is that of a Kerensky left behind and taken isorla in the Homeworlds before he has earned his bloodname. I don't think they could join the Homeworld genepool unless a new or old Kerensky bloodhouse is established/reestabled in the Homeworlds. Unless there is a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds, they won't be able to win their bloodname, and, thus, their giftake won't be used in the Homeworlds' genetic programs.
Again, my 2 c-bills, FWIW.
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You are correct in that I think we differ on one key point, the question of whether or not you must have the genetic legacy of a Bloodname's founder, to continue to perpetuate that Bloodname.
Personally, I think the answer is no. I have never seen anything anywhere that says you must have that. Otherwise, that would wreck havoc on Clan society (even pre-Wars of Reaving).
Imagine a highly successful, numerous bloodname house with many warrior members, bloodnamed and not, and then that Founder's legacy is accidentally lost somehow, a fire, a mishap. Does the bloodname house cease to exist? I doubt it. It hinges so much, so many lives and legacies and such a huge part of the Clan Eugenics Program on a relatively small number (less than 800) legacies that are hundreds of years old.
That would mean, for example, that when Clan Wolf acquired many of the Widowmaker Bloodlines, they couldn't reconstitute those names unless they gained the founder. Same thing with what the Cloud Cobras did, in grabbing Mongoose lines from the Smoke Jaguars. No Founder, No Bloodname House.
But maybe I'm being smarter than the Clans on this, maybe that's exactly what their rulebook says.
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Then the Wars of Reaving happen. Star Captain John Kerensky (Of Clan Star Adder) survives all of this fighting for his new Clan. Having never seen the Inner Sphere, he isn't Reaved. Not being a member of Clan Wolf anymore, he doesn't face abjurement or Annihilation.
First of all, leaving a 25 year old Bloodnamed Kerensky in the Home Worlds doesn't feel right. Even if he got the Bloodname at 35, it's far too prestigious to just leave in the Home Worlds. He'd get a frontline assignment up front. The Kerensky Bloodhouse would ensure it if nothing else.
Even if he was, or, let's say, captured during the...I don't know, Harvest Trials and he either hasn't seen the Inner Sphere or passes any Cleansing Trials...
We're still back to the main problem:
A Trial of Annihilation is the worst punishment that can be inflicted upon a Clan. Quite literally, they are written out of the books as never existing. All Trueborns are executed. All warrriors' descendants are executed. Hell, every single civilian is sterilized to ensure that no descendants from that Clan exist. Ever
John Kerensky would be put down like a dog (not a Wolf!). He'd be shot in the streets. Exterminated. Star Adder or not.
Look at the Wolverine genes that wound up in Ghost Bear: Entire sibkos were *ordered* to commit *suicide* because they had some wolverine DNA in them.
Even if they wanted to spare John Kerensky because of his Bloodname, he still has Wolf legacies in him. It's not as if he's 100% Kerensky DNA. There will be Ward in there (Oh, I bet they especially hate Ward legacies now O:-)). There will be probably be Radick in there. There's a good chance he'll have Widowmaker in there too.
So...that Trial of Annihilation pretty much makes that a no go...so what happens if they overturn the Annihilation? Clan Wolf hasn't yet been destroyed right? It acts as a Trial of Refusal- and Wolf 'survived' so its innocent of destroying the Founder's Legacies.
We still come back to the issue of John Kerensky, some subpar warrior who wasn't good enough to go to the Inner Sphere and clearly inferior to the God-like Founders being used to recreate it. It's a spit in the face just like Nat said above.
Don't get me wrong- in your game, run it however you see fit. As long as you have fun- but there are a lot of hurdles to jump, and as such, I see this as about as likely as the Home Clans adopting Amaris as their new Founder.
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What becomes of him now? All of Clan Wolf's Kerensky warriors are gone, but he's still around, can he put out a call to all remaining Kerensky warriors in the Clan Homeworlds to hold a meeting, and elect him the new Bloodname House Leader? Can the Star Adders find a way to justify using his genetic legacy to create sibkos? (which can be acquired with some blood and tissue samples)
Based on your scenario (thanks for spelling it out), I think John Kerensky can only be used as a genefather in the Star Adder genetic program. For John Kerensky's descendents to have a chance to earn his Kerensky bloodname, John would have to be a genemother. And for John to be a genemother, one of the two Star Adder ilKhans from WoR would have to establish (or re-establish) a Kerensky bloodhouse. And if one of the Star Adder ilKhans did that, it would require an extraordinary justification -- either that:
1) John Kerensky's actions as reflected in his codex make him such a Clan studmuffin that he deserves his own bloodhouse, right up there with (or just a notch below) Nicholas and Andery.
Or
2) We (the Homeworld Clans) should just give up on Nicholas and Andery Kerenksy's actual legacies. Yes, Nick and Andy are our most revered founders, and it's taken 300 years to perfect their legacies to date, but let's face facts -- the tainted Wolves got them and we don't. So let's just give up and start over with John here. He is good enough. Aff?
I can see #1 happening. Nothing like that is written up in WoR or its supplemental, but nothing keeps you from creating such a character and sequence of events for your own campaign. Would make a great piece of fanfic.
I don't see #2 ever happening at any point in Clan history, but especially with the Homeworld Clans post-Reaving. Any ilKhan crazy enough to make such a proposal would be challenged to trial after trial until he was dead. Or, if his Clan was crazy enough to back him, they'd be whacked with enough trials until they knew better, were abjured, or were annihilated.
Again, my 2 cents, FWIW.
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What I'd wonder about is whether or not there would be enough surviving genetic material for the Coyotes to continue the tradition of using Andery as a gene-parent mixed with Dana Kufahl's legacy; or if that loss was part and parcel of the grand sundering between the Wolves (of either stripe) and the Coyotes post-Reaving.
(Potentially, some of the surviving Kufahls by 3085 may have been created with Dana and Andery as their gene-parents; though if the chance for any future sibkos like them has indeed been lost, it would make them the last of their kind, in a perhaps more poignant way compared to other lost legacies of this era.)
Actually, if the Homeworld Clans show up in the Inner Sphere post-3150, that could be an interesting question to ask; would any Dark Age Kufahls have more of a motivation than the others in explicitly going after Andery's legacy; for its status in and of itself, but also in order to allow them to re-establish their founding Khan's unique connection to the younger Kerensky?
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I do not see the Wolves leaving Clan Space forever as a option.It might take into the AOD and beyond,but the Wolves will take back what was theirs.It will just take time.
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I do not see the Wolves leaving Clan Space forever as a option.It might take into the AOD and beyond,but the Wolves will take back what was theirs.It will just take time.
Yeah. No one has any clue what lies in the Homeworlds after 3150 and that's 60 years for the clans to conquer their neighbors and seriously rebuild. The Hansa apparently has a lot of good stuff. Give the clans resources and they get big again. The Wolves might try to go back but my guess is 60 years after WoRS the home clans are not going to take that lightly and have the ability to seriously mess up an intruder.
As for Big K's legacy just pull WoR and see if any Kerenskys are commanding clusters in the homeworlds.
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As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).
And the Loremaster too (Katya).
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Ivan Kerensky? ::)
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What's wrong with Ivan?
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What's wrong with Ivan?
Let's just say that it sounds very Russian...
(At least that's how I took it. If I took it out of context, my apologies.)
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Let's just say that it sounds very Russian...
(At least that's how I took it. If I took it out of context, my apologies.)
That was my assumption too.
Although while Vlad ended up keeping Kat sequestered for the most part and a civilian at that, Ivan is alleged to be spending a lot of time with her privately, where she seems to have quite a bit of influence over him...
That's what I recall from Wars of Reaving, anyway- the (not so) subtle hint that it wasn't until Vlad passed on that Kat found someone to use to begin her rise of power within Clan Wolf.
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Besides Quinn w/ the Jade Falcons, is there any known instance of a Kerensky being in another clan leading up to the Jihad ?
(I thought there was but can't quote it right now)
We know that no clan has Maternal breeding rights to any Kerensky, but I'm not sure if any of them were taken as bondsmen before Quinn.
It might be interesting to count up the # of canon Kerensky references from the WCSB & the FM's to see if all 50 are accounted for.
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It might be interesting to count up the # of canon Kerensky references from the WCSB & the FM's to see if all 50 are accounted for.
I had the fact checkers look for me a while back, there are nothing close to that.
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I had the fact checkers look for me a while back, there are nothing close to that.
That doesn't suprise me at all Kit.
I looked up the WCSB a long while ago & noticed the same thing. For it being the "best" and "Twice the size" of most Houses there are suprisingly few of them around.
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The WCSB and the FMs cover different time periods, so that wouldn't yield the result you seek. Plus the FMs really only show Khans/Galaxy Commanders/Cluster Commanders, a fraction of the warriors in each Clan. Not listed would be things like, Clan warriors serving on warships, or in non-combat posts such as military governors, or as advisers, or sibko trainers even. Plus WCSB didn't cover all of Clan Wolf did it? I think it only covered those Galaxies that participated in Operation Revival, five galaxies worth. Everyone and everything else was back in Clan space.
Bondsmen are a fact of life in the Clans. You fight, you lose, if you survive, you get taken as bondsman. Considering how much the Clans fight, in Trials big and small, that means it happens a lot. My best guess, at least 1 in 15 Clan Trueborn warriors wear the bondcord at least once in their lives. I'm focusing on Trueborns because Freeborns may be treated a little differently by some Clans that don't accept freeborn warriors. Also to the bondholder, in some Clans, a bondsman is almost like a living trophy, proof of your strength and success, at least until he becomes a warrior again. It goes hand in hand with the "waste nothing" mentality.
Mechs and ASFs have ejection seats, Elemental armor has features that can help keep a warrior alive until Clan medical science can do its thing. All of these factors mean warriors do survive battles, even the ones they lose. So when you read that in some fight the "entire Cluster X of Clan Y was destroyed", they could have taken dozens of bondsmen from that.
Bondsmen help sustain the Clan way of life. With so much fighting, and relatively speaking, so few warriors, you can recoup some of your losses of a successful campaign through obtaining bondsmen. Like salvage. Frankly it always surprised me that we didn't see as much scatter of bloodnamed individuals in the Clan FMs. More or less, you saw the list of that Clan's "exclusive" bloodnames, and those with few exception those were the names that repeatedly popped up as Galaxy/Cluster commanders in every Clan. I always felt like that was too stratified, it didn't reflect how many good warriors of bloodnames of other Clans must be serving there. And of all things, bondsmen turned warriors with the Kerensky bloodname, would in my mind be someone put on a pedestal, in any Clan. If only so you can point at Clan Wolf and do the Simpsons Ralph laugh.
Coming full circle to the point, no, I don't know of any specific Kerensky in the other Clans, but you have to consider all of the above. Plus the sentence that I pulled from WoR and pasted in the first post on this thread. Which would imply such warriors do exist.
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The WCSB and the FMs cover different time periods, so that wouldn't yield the result you seek.
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Which would imply such warriors do exist.
I know its not perfect, but I was just trying to see if we could put a name on a canon example, to take a little of the hypothetical out of the equation.
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So Assuming Star Commander BILL Kerensky, a mediocre aging testdown sentenced to garrison life back in the Homeworlds w/o chance to ever see the IS is captured by Reaving Survival Clan #3 in 3069 in a minor trial for resources.
Bill shows loyalty to his new clan & tests out again & then survives the Reevings.
So...
1. Clan #3 has no right to his DNA for breeding.
2. iLKhan soinso does have the right to grant him a new Bloodname (1) &/or Blood Heritage (2) for his amazing defense of his new clan's genetic repository when under attack by rabid-tainted clansmen a few years later.
3. Option #1 grants a new Blood Name, which in theory is not Kerensky, we'll call it Billson.
4. Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill. (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured) This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.
Question, could Option 1 create a new bloodname as a "3rd" Kerensky as mentioned previously ?
(I don't even know if that is allowed)
I ask because it is the only way I could see more than 1 Kerensky ever holding that name again.
So basically it would require an act of truly heroic proportions as mentioned by others.
It would also require an iLKhan willing to do some serious rule bending, not sure if that would happen in a post reeving world. Then again post reeving might be the only place it ever would happen.
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Besides Quinn w/ the Jade Falcons, is there any known instance of a Kerensky being in another clan leading up to the Jihad ?
What do you mean by "leading up to the Jihad"? There was a SCol Marc Kerensky in the Nova Cats at the battle of Luthien in 3052.
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So Assuming Star Commander BILL Kerensky, a mediocre aging testdown sentenced to garrison life back in the Homeworlds w/o chance to ever see the IS is captured by Reaving Survival Clan #3 in 3069 in a minor trial for resources.
Bill shows loyalty to his new clan & tests out again & then survives the Reevings.
So...
1. Clan #3 has no right to his DNA for breeding.
2. iLKhan soinso does have the right to grant him a new Bloodname (1) &/or Blood Heritage (2) for his amazing defense of his new clan's genetic repository when under attack by rabid-tainted clansmen a few years later.
3. Option #1 grants a new Blood Name, which in theory is not Kerensky, we'll call it Billson.
4. Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill. (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured) This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.
Question, could Option 1 create a new bloodname as a "3rd" Kerensky as mentioned previously ?
(I don't even know if that is allowed)
I ask because it is the only way I could see more than 1 Kerensky ever holding that name again.
So basically it would require an act of truly heroic proportions as mentioned by others.
It would also require an iLKhan willing to do some serious rule bending, not sure if that would happen in a post reeving world. Then again post reeving might be the only place it ever would happen.
Or...and this is the circumstance I find most reasonable. Bill isn't used to create a new Bloodname House. Bill is of the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, regardless of the status of Nicolas Kerensky's genetic legacy, he remains of the Bloodname House of Nicolas Kerensky and may, if his genetic legacy is somehow secured via Trial (with an acceptable Clan proxy for the Wolves) or by some decree be gifted to his new Clan, be used to create future generations of Kerensky Bloodname eligible warriors. Then its used to create sibkos of Bill's children, and when they grow up, they can fight Trials of Bloodright for the Kerensky Bloodname, and over the course of several generations of warriors, the Kerensky Bloodname house is refilled to capacity.
The assumption I keep seeing made is that the loss of the Founder's Legacy means no Bloodname House. I disagree with that, I have seen nothing that says that is Clan law. The Bloodname House lives on, through any trueborn warriors still with the Clans who is eligible for the Kerensky bloodname or already possesses it.
The way I see it, you need one of these:
1. The founder's legacy
2. Warriors eligible for the Bloodname
3. Warriors who have the Bloodname
If any 1 of the 3 conditions listed above exists, then that Bloodname House continues to exist, even if its membership is only includes Bill at the moment. Because with any 1 of those, you can eventually create new sibkos eligible for that bloodname. Assuming of course that the genetic legacies in question are free of scientist tampering.
That's how I look at it anyway. For that reason, I would not be that surprised, at all, if when the Homeworld Clans reappear in 3100something, they have a few Kerensky warriors running around. It would be very easy to write that into the story if they chose to. A Clan warship appears and...surprise...the Star Adder saKhan issuing the batchall for a renewed invasion is a Kerensky.
On the other hand, the writers might feel there are already enough "Kerenskys" running around the Inner Sphere and not go that route. But to my mind there is enough justification in-universe, for the HW Clans to rebuild the Kerensky Bloodname House (one or the other or both), if the writers and storytellers of BT decided to go that route.
And I don't buy the notion that just because he has "Wolf blood in him", Radick, Ward, whatever he's been reaved. By that logic, the Carrols should all be gone, they claim to have Kerensky blood in them. But as of Wars of Reaving Supplemental, that line has reappeared and is in use. So to have a lot of dormant Coyote lines that were removed in the Blood Scandal. By the end of the Wars of Reaving, the Home Clans are literally desperate for genetic legacies that are clean of scientist tampering.
All you need is a non-Wolf Kerensky bloodname eligible or blooded warrior who never saw the Inner Sphere and whose gene-mother and gene-father never visited the Inner Sphere (born before 3050, when the IlKhan wanted to 'reset' those bloodnames to). Difficult conditions to conjure, sure, but not impossible.
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Bill isn't used to create a new Bloodname House. Bill is of the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, regardless of the status of Nicolas Kerensky's genetic legacy...
The status of Nick or Andy's legacies is actually crucial to this. To winnow the genepool of an entire bloodname down to one current representative is essentially a rejection of the bloodname's founder and the vast majority of the progeny that flowed from it. It's like saying that your great-great-great-great-great grandparent was worthless except for their genetic ties to your sister. I don't think that's going to happen when one of the Clans' most revered founders is the originator of the bloodname.
So I still don't see this happening. Before a Homeworld Clan could restart Nick or Andy Kerensky's bloodhouse from scratch with only one of their descendents, all the Homeworld Clans would have to agree to reject all of Nick or Andy's existing legacies. The Homeworld Clans aren't going to agree to something like that on political grounds alone. The three other Homeworld Clans aren't going to let one Homeworld Clan lay claim to a bunch of future "Kerenskys" when they can just say that winnowing Nick or Andy's line down to just Bill's progeny would dishonor their most revered founders.
But I also think doing so would actually be anathema to the Clans, especially the incredibly conservative remaining Homeworld Clans post-reavings. They're not going to give up on the actual legacies of their most revered founders in favor of Bill's one legacy simply because those legacies are (temporarily) in the possession of some tainted Wolves. And they're not going to throw away ~300 years that went into perfecting the legacies of their most revered founders in favor of Bill's one legacy simply because those legacies are (temporarily) in the possession of some tainted Wolves.
Unless Nick/Andy's actual legacies had all been destroyed, I think any Clanner proposing such would quickly face an insurmountable number of trials against the proposal and probably their own continued existence.
My 2 C-bills, FWIW.
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We know that no clan has Maternal breeding rights to any Kerensky
Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them.
Now lets see if TPTB flip on me after I had that same belief before then... [AAAH]
Paul
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4. Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill. (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured. This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.
As I understand it, there would be what, 50 Blood Names (25 from Nicholas and 25 from Andery), from the Kerensky Blood Heritage. Unlike other Blood Names, it would seem that they have always been a populated one from the honor it brings, unlike other Blood Names. Should one have been Reaved in the past for poor performance, it can be reinstated by a Trial of Propagation. A Trial of Refusal on the issue would work if I understand the Martial Code correctly.
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So I still don't see this happening. Before a Homeworld Clan could restart Nick or Andy Kerensky's bloodhouse from scratch with only one of their descendents, all the Homeworld Clans would have to agree to reject all of Nick or Andy's existing legacies.
Why? Either you do or do not have the Blood Heritage. In this case if you mean the Coyotes, they don't need permission for this.
The Homeworld Clans aren't going to agree to something like that on political grounds alone. The three other Homeworld Clans aren't going to let one Homeworld Clan lay claim to a bunch of future "Kerenskys" when they can just say that winnowing Nick or Andy's line down to just Bill's progeny would dishonor their most revered founders.
I would. I would get a foothold on the Blood Heritage and take the others from their respective Clans and take control of it. Seems to be a great way to become recognized as THE Clan of Kerensky now that so many Clans have run or been run out of town. The political prestige and honors that this Blood Heritage brings with it is worth nearly any price to be part of/controlled by a single Clan. It would grant a veneer of legitimacy to the Clan who controlled it, with the ilClan still undecided who better to be the obvious choice? The one who controls the Kerensky Blood Heritage. Either that or the stinking Wolves might still grab it being on the goal line in the IS. :'(
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Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them.
Now lets see if TPTB flip on me after I had that same belief before then... [AAAH]
Paul
Not true. I have a reference from Operation Klondike, and I thought there was another ref in an older source material, but I can't seem to find it skimming quickly. Although all the references I've found list Kerensky as an exclusive Wolf bloodname. Maybe Roosterboy can help. From Op:K pg 34
Some legacies have been shared, but under very specific circumstances. Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.
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Why? Either you do or do not have the Blood Heritage. In this case if you mean the Coyotes, they don't need permission for this.
I meant that I don't see the Homeworld Clans reestablishing a Nick or Andy Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds based on the giftake of only one existing Kerensky bloodnamed (Bill Kerensky in your example above). To do that, all the Homeworld Clans (not just the one with Bill in its touman) would have to agree to reject all the rest of Nick or Andy's existing legacies, and agree that Bill is the new paragon of Kerensky-hood. Unless Bill pulls an Aidan Pryde, I don't think the four remaining Homeworld Clans are going to agree that Bill measures up to Nick or Andy and can represent and propogate the entire bloodname going forward.
That's different from breeding a Kerensky patrilineally. You don't have to reestablish a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds for the 'Yotes to breed Andy's lineage patrilineally with Kufahl's lineage matrilineally, etc.
I would. I would get a foothold on the Blood Heritage and take the others from their respective Clans and take control of it. Seems to be a great way to become recognized as THE Clan of Kerensky now that so many Clans have run or been run out of town. The political prestige and honors that this Blood Heritage brings with it is worth nearly any price to be part of/controlled by a single Clan.
No doubt. I agree that it is very tempting because it could enhance your Clans' power in a variety of ways. But that's exactly why the other three remaining Homeworld Clans are going to oppose you if you make such a power grab. Even if they didn't care about the true legacies of the Kerensky brothers (and I think some, if not all, would), they're not going to let one Clan lay claim to Kerensky power. They're going to cry foul, point out that the true legacies of the Kerensky can't be ignored (even if they are temporarily held by abjured Wolves), claim that you're tainted for rejecting the legacies of their most revered founders, and trial you until you (and probably your bloodhouse and Clan) back down or are dead.
Obviously you should do whatever works best for your campaign, but if I was going to reestablish a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds, I would make it a new bloodhouse based on the exploits of a highly exceptional warrior with Kerensky blood. If such a warrior existed in the Homeworlds, I think there would be a temptation to create a new Kerensky bloodhouse with Bill Kerensky (or whoever) as its founder. That doesn't require anyone to reject nearly all the actual legacies of Nick or Andy.
But I don't see the Homeworld Clans rejecting all the other legacies of Nick or Andy in favor of Bill. Bill can come close, but he will never measure up to those most revered founders.
stinking Wolves
I resemble that remark.
My 2 C-bills, FWIW.
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Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them.
This doesn't seem right- I remember a "Jennifer Kerensky" that took some flak for her 'In Character' origin of the name on these boards- using the first generation clause.
Is that what you're referring to?
I resemble that remark.
Probably not the best time to have a Freudian slip... ;D
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Do the Wolves-in-Exile and the "plain vanilla" Wolves have a single bloodhouse for each shared name?
That is, WiE Jane Kerensky fails a lawn dart check... do the WiE and CW do a joint Trial of Bloodright? or is it exclusive to the exiles?
Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?
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Do the Wolves-in-Exile and the "plain vanilla" Wolves have a single bloodhouse for each shared name?
That is, WiE Jane Kerensky fails a lawn dart check... do the WiE and CW do a joint Trial of Bloodright? or is it exclusive to the exiles?
Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?
With the exception of Kell, both Wolf Clans 'share' the Bloodnames in the sense they have the same Bloodnames.
They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..
So- in theory, there's 50 Wards running around the Inner Sphere; 50 Radicks. 25 Kells...and 100 Kerenskys.
It's one of the (many) issues if they ever decided to form a single Clan again. Although with even the Council of Six no longer active by the 3130s, and the way the Bears have integrated into the FRR...as well as creating their own Bloodnames- is there anything preventing them from just increasing the amount of holders from 25 to 50 anymore?
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To me, it isn't reconstituting or recreating the Kerensky Bloodname House. It continues to exist, it never stopped existing. It's still the Bloodname House of Nicholas or Andery Kerensky. Filled with warriors who are genetic descendants of those two individuals. That is what a Bloodname House is, the Founders are dead, the Bloodname House consists of their genetic descendants who are eligible or possess that Bloodname. With that, you have a Bloodname House, and that's all you need.
All of the HW Clans may lack the 'genetic' legacy, of the founders, but they quite possibly possess the genetic offspring of the Founders. Continuing to use them, to create sibkos from 'Bill' doesn't strike me as any kind of rejection of Nicholas or Andery, its the continued perpetuation and honoring of their legacy (not genetic, their legacy in general). Those warriors continue to honor Nicholas and Andery. The only thing wrong is that you can no longer create warriors bred DIRECTLY from Nicholas and Andery's legacies. You can't breed anymore 1st-generation children of those two. But, hypothetically speaking, if Bill is a 30th generation Kerensky, you can breed the 31st...32nd....etc. Using Bill as a gene-mother means his sibkos can compete for the Kerensky Bloodname. That's how you eventually refill that Bloodname House to capacity. And Bill doesn't have to be an Aidan Pryde success story for that to happen, he simply has to have earned the Kerensky bloodname via a Trial of Bloodright. And it doesn't then become "The Bloodname House of Bill Kerensky". It is still the Bloodname House of Nicholas Kerensky, Bill just happens to be the genetic bottleneck that occurred at this point in history, the family tree was reduced to one branch, but continues to sprout from that branch.
This whole thing, the entire Clan Eugenics Program, is about genetic evolution, one generation of warriors being better than the last, and that generation proving their worth so they can be used to create the next. That's what a Bloodname House is. Having the Founder's legacies on-hand is great, but to me, not essential to a Bloodname House's survival. You honor the founder in the Remembrance, you honor them through remembering their deeds and place in Clan history. You don't HAVE to be actively producing sibkos with their genetic legacy, and by extension, you don't have to have their genetic legacy at all. You build a statue, a new Blood Chapel, in their honor, and you continue producing new generations eligible for that Bloodname and they sing songs about their Founder, whose genetic legacy was lost to Wolf treachery, but whose name lives on and whose blood continues to exist in the veins of Clan Warriors (the HW Clans).
I won't say anymore on this. I feel like I've laid it out my point of view six-ways-to-Sunday and beyond this point it would just be a rehash. The only reason I've continued this far is because I still felt like the point I was trying to make wasn't getting through, but that's not up to me. I can't cite some specific canon chunk on Clan life that says whether or not a Bloodname House must have the House founder's legacy to survive and continue. So we can and probably would, continue going to circles about this unless some final and official arbiter laid down the law beyond what is written in publicly published canon materials. This is how I feel about it, and I offer it simply as food for thought. I'm simply trying to say, it is not impossible, that's all.
Ultimately I still feel, it won't come down to what does or does not exist, or what some Bloodname Founder legacy rule we've never seen says. It will come down to the Will and Wishes of the writers going forward, as to whether or not we see warriors with the Kerensky Bloodname among the HW Clans in the future. There is enough gray area, enough running room, to make it happen either way.
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They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..
Where is this mentioned?
It's one of the (many) issues if they ever decided to form a single Clan again. Although with even the Council of Six no longer active by the 3130s, and the way the Bears have integrated into the FRR...as well as creating their own Bloodnames- is there anything preventing them from just increasing the amount of holders from 25 to 50 anymore?
I doubt they'd increase the number of legacies associated with a given bloodname. What seems more likely is simply adding new bloodnames to the roster in order to accommodate new "blood" originating from extraordinary warriors from the billions of non-clanners integrated into the Dominion.
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Where is this mentioned?
Warriors of the Clans.
I think specifically its the Clan Wolf (and Exiles) writeup section from memory.
I doubt they'd increase the number of legacies associated with a given bloodname. What seems more likely is simply adding new bloodnames to the roster in order to accommodate new "blood" originating from extraordinary warriors from the billions of non-clanners integrated into the Dominion.
Oh, sorry, I meant Clan Wolf increase it's number of legacies. I was using the Ghost Bears as an example of what deviations the other Clans' have done.
In 3067, the Grand Council would have frowned upon Clan Wolf 'accepting' Dark Caste back into it, who were guilty of genocide. Even if they didn't, they'd likely have been displeased with Clan Wolf having 50 Wards at a time instead of 25.
The same could probably have been said of the Council of 6 in the late '70s.
But in the 3130s? The other Clans might not like it, but there's no authority for them to appeal to. Each Clan does as it pleases- so if there is a re-integration in, say, 3150, and Clan Wolf simply chooses to let everyone keep their Bloodnames instead of trying to figure out which Bloodnamed warriors keep their Bloodnames and which lose them, I doubt anyone would say anything.
I realize Ragnar already had his Bloodname while there was still a Council but still...
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Warriors of the Clans.
You mean The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky
I think specifically its the Clan Wolf (and Exiles) writeup section from memory.
Found it (DANG! it's been a long time since I checked the old writeups in WoK!); pp. 97:
"Both factions have complete copies of the Wolf Clan's genetic legacies and have pursued their own eugenics programs. Both have also held their own Trials for Bloodheritages, resulting in the existence of two holders of each - one Crusader, the other Warden. Unofficially, the Wardens have shown a willingness to arrange Trials only for the heritages they took into exile."
One could assume that said trials take place only once the current living holder dies. In the case of WiE Jane Kerensky, while she lives, she is the only holder of that bloodright; however, when she bites the big one, two Trials of Bloodright will take place; one among the crusaders, one among the exiles. Interestingly enough, if Crusader Wolf Daria Kerensky kicks it, only one Trial of Bloodright will take place (among the crusaders)... at least according to WoK (around 3062); there is no guarantee that the exile's willingness to refrain from doubling crusader Wolf legacies extended beyond that year or Kell's tenure.
Interestingly enough, the WiE Khan could institute a Trial of Propagation to make use of abandoned heritages which the crusaders are not using; particularly in Limited Bloodnames like Conners, Shaw, Ch'in and Leroux (which have five or less legacies among the crusaders as of 3085).
Of course, the exiles have Kell plus any "Dragoon" legacies (IIRC they had instituted a bloodname-like practice and had their own eugenics program). They might also have access to the Nova Cat eugenics program, which would certainly help maintain "purity" in both trueborn programs.
The exiles might also have "free access" to the DNA and bloodheritages of any warriors (or even ex-warriors under certain circumstances) with legacies from the "dead clans".
Regarding the thread's topic; since the Homeworld Clans decided to close communications with the tainted Inner Sphere Clans (not abjured; that requires a Trial), they would be unable to use the DNA or bloodname, since they would be unable to Trial for their use... HOWEVER, they might be able to use the legacies of those Kerensky warriors still in their control (i.e. abthaka) IF those legacies can be traced back to the WARDEN Wolves-in-Exile who were fully abjured by the Clans as a whole and by the (legitimate) crusader Wolves.
This might bring about the extraordinary situation that for a few particular Kerensky legacies, there are THREE holders of the heritage! To continue my example, when WiE Jane Kerensky kamikazes into a fig tree, the WiE have a Trial of Bloodright for her bloodheritage, the Crusader Wolves have a second Trial of Bloodright for her bloodheritage and when word of her death reaches the Clan Homeworlds, a THIRD Trial of Bloodright takes place for her bloodheritage; the competitors are her sibkin Joe (captured by the Cobras) and a bunch of warriors created by the Scorpions from her abjured DNA. The winner of this Trial would be the Head of House Kerensky (Andery) in the Clan Homeworlds; his/her matrilineal descendants, as well as those of the other (legitimate) competitors sharing his/her matrilineal DNA (Andery Kerensky's) would be able to compete for new bloodheritages... including other Andery Kerensky descendants captured from the Crusader Wolves.
Thus, there might potentially be as many as 150 Kerensky bloodnamed warriors (assuming something similar happens with the Nicholas line), but the probability of this would be so remote as to be nearly impossible. At best, you might have Kerensky (one or the other) with a few legacies in the Clan Worlds, 25 of each among the Crusaders and unusual numbers up to 25 each among the exiles.
Many years down the line, three descendants of Andery Kerensky
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What do you mean by "leading up to the Jihad"? There was a SCol Marc Kerensky in the Nova Cats at the battle of Luthien in 3052.
AH HA, thank you sir, that might be the one I was thinking of.
I was pretty sure I had seen a commander of some Non-Wolf unit in some book that was a Kerensky.
By "Leading up to" I mean recent, as in could still be alive & in said clan 15-20 years later.
As opposed to an older historical reference.
Basically, since 3050 invasion is what I meant.
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Unless TPTB have specifically reversed their previous decision, the Coyotes do have it, use it and are able to create a Kerensky Bloodline whenever the mood strikes them.
I've always heard it was Paternal only.
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Who (and where) are the Heads of House for the two Kerensky Bloodlines (Nicholas and Andery)?
In the case of the Wolves & Exiles I'd say there are 2 house leaders.
With the exception of Kell, both Wolf Clans 'share' the Bloodnames in the sense they have the same Bloodnames.
They each maintain their own Bloodhouses for them though, with 25 each..
"Both factions have complete copies of the Wolf Clan's genetic legacies and have pursued their own eugenics programs. Both have also held their own Trials for Bloodheritages, resulting in the existence of two holders of each - one Crusader, the other Warden. Unofficially, the Wardens have shown a willingness to arrange Trials only for the heritages they took into exile."
I always read that to mean the the Exiles only have "double" names for the actual bloodnamed warriors that left with them.
So they would never have had slots for the 3 Kerensky's leading the Crusaders right now for instance.
But, they would fill Natasha's old slot or Darrel who was with the 13th Guards.
As for the Crusaders, I'm not sure they have to wait for an Exile to die off 1st.
Can't they replace that heritage since the current holder was abjured & is "No longer clan" ?
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From Historical: Operation Klondike.
Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the
Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love
between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother
and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only
eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.
Also, after the Wolves in exiles left, Vlad fought a Trial of Bloodright for Phelan's 'old' bloodname. Not because Phelan became Phelan Kell, but because as he was abjured, Phelan no longer counted and thus that particular Ward name was now available. Abjured means as far as Clan society is concerned, you are no longer Clan and no longer have that bloodname. It reverts back to the status it held before you won it in a Trial of Bloodright, to go to someone else.
So as far as Clan society is concerned, Pre-Wars of Reaving, the Crusader Wolves are the only Bloodnamed Wolves. Clan Wolf-in-Exile is acting in spite of the Abjurement by retaining their bloodnames and continuing their own copy of the Clan Wolf Eugenics Program.
That continues post-Wars of Reaving, except now the Crusader Wolves are recognized, but only by the Council of Six in the Inner Sphere.
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does it matter? The Inner Sphere has it's Wolves (Two Flavors. Three flavors, if you count both the CrCW, WCWiE and i guess WD) and the home clans have none.
...besides, can you imagine the annual Ky-Con in Las Vegas? the worst cast(e) scenario you all have created with this 'What IF &^%* is 150 folks, last name Kerensky. Holy &^%*, that's like 150 Smiths or Jones (at the dropport, a 150 limo dudes holding up 'Kerensky' signs...)
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This doesn't seem right- I remember a "Jennifer Kerensky" that took some flak for her 'In Character' origin of the name on these boards- using the first generation clause.
Is that what you're referring to?
Yes. I was the FGC Coyote Khan and I disallowed the very thought as it violated the belief of patrilineal use only. I was overruled by TPTB and that was tradition and not a rule the Coyotes followed. First or last generation was irrelevant at the end of it all and the FGC Wolves went ballistic...
I had to suck the judgement up and prepare the bids for a Clan on Clan Wide Refusal... I was pretty steamed at the time as it really eight balled our ability to dispose of this as an internal matter.
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From Historical: Operation Klondike.
Generally a legacy can be used
as a genefather or genemother, but an agreement between clans can limit this. The best known example of such an agreement is between the
Wolves and the Coyotes regarding the legacies of Dana Kufahl and Andery Kerensky. It was agreed in the early days of the Clans to mark the love
between Andery and Dana by having warriors that shared both heritages. However, the Coyotes always use the Kufahl legacy as the genemother
and the Kerensky as the genefather, while the Wolves do the opposite. This means all Coyotes of the mixed Kufahl-Kerensky bloodline are only
eligible for the Kufahl bloodname, while those of the same combined bloodline in the Wolves are only eligible for the Kerensky name.
I don't deny this passage, as a matter of fact I petitioned for its rewording during the fact check phase of the book. This doesn't say that either Clan is prohibited from swapping their gene parents, it says that they have always done so as stated. Let's kick this up to the bosses as the old board had the info and is no longer accessible that I can tell. I would be very happy to be wrong... deliriuosly so to see that point reversed. Wantec has clearly stated the issue as I held to before the clarification was made and I would love to be able to hold to it again. 8)
Paul
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Yes. I was the FGC Coyote Khan and I disallowed the very thought as it violated the belief of patrilineal use only. I was overruled by TPTB and that was tradition and not a rule the Coyotes followed. First or last generation was irrelevant at the end of it all and the FGC Wolves went ballistic...
I had to suck the judgement up and prepare the bids for a Clan on Clan Wide Refusal... I was pretty steamed at the time as it really eight balled our ability to dispose of this as an internal matter.
Eh, my memory's fuzzy, but it seemed a bit blown out of proportion from what I remember.
As I understand, the Coyote's have the right to Andery's Blood Legacy as long as it's used Paternally. That's the Legacy
Jenn, to her credit, was thinking 'out of the box' by saying her character was from a Sibko of Andery's genetic material itself
Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.
I mean, I don't see the Wolves doing it either. The whole point of the Eugenics is to improve the line right? When it came time to whip up another Kerensky sibko, they used Natasha's genetic material to make Ranna's sibko. They didn't use Nicholas's.
So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.
But, in universe, the Coyotes wouldn't because the Wolves would go ballistic. Just like it actually happened in the FGC.
Sounds about right.
And Andery's material subsequently had bleach poured all over it and then set on fire under Vlad's orders- leaving nothing for the Home Clans to use.
I don't see the problem, honestly.
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Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.
You mean, like a clone of Andery with the Y chromosome removed (Maeve Wolf redoux, so to speak)?
So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.
But, in universe, the Coyotes wouldn't because the Wolves would go ballistic. Just like it actually happened in the FGC.
But the right to compete for a bloodname is established matrilinearlly; even if said character had Andery as a gene father, she'd be unable to compete for the bloodname unless her gene mother carried the Andery's mitochondrial DNA.
And Andery's material subsequently had bleach poured all over it and then set on fire under Vlad's orders- leaving nothing for the Home Clans to use.
He did? You mean the destruction of the Wolf Repository on Strana Mechty, right? not a separate incident stemming from this Jenniffer situation?
Note that even with the repository destroyed along with every copy contained therein, any warriors of the bloodhouse left behind still have their DNA intact from which a new generation of warriors can (potentially) be bred who are elegible for that bloodname.
Which reminds me; in Wars of Reaving, there are several bloodnames mentioned as being usable as genefather only; in every case, it is clear that the matrilinear control of the House rests in another clan, with one exception: Snow Raven's Shu (marked as a Limited bloodname with 5 or less legacies). Shu is a weird case because it is a truly exclusive bloodname and has been under raven control since Bradley Shu back in Klondike. Does anybody have any idea why it is so marked (WoR pp. 195)? or how you can have a blood house that can't use its DNA to create warriors elegible for its own bloodname? ???
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WoR page 178.
It was not until 3079 that conclusive evidence came to light that the Society had corrupted not just the Crow legacy, but also the Shu bloodline. While new samples were taken from the living Bloodnamed warriors of both lines, there were too few to ensure their genetic diversity and were restricted to use as only a genefather.
I suspect it is a temporary measure for reasons like the above, with the potential to improve once some more unblooded Shu warriors earn their bloodname. Though honestly, I don't see why that would prevent them from producing a few sibkos (as gene-mother) from the legacies they do have. Otherwise it creates a weird situation. When those Bloodnames come up for Trial of Bloodright in the future, if Shu has been 'genefather only' for a couple or more generations of warriors, the pool of warriors eligible will be very small (mostly those born before this decision was made). That means lesser warriors could have a shot at a bloodname because competition is scarce.
I figure the decision was made by the scientists, not the warriors, who are more concerned about genetic diversity. Whereas a warriors are more likely to be concerned with seeing their Bloodname House grow like a weed.
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WoR page 178.
It was not until 3079 that conclusive evidence came to light that the Society had corrupted not just the Crow legacy, but also the Shu bloodline. While new samples were taken from the living Bloodnamed warriors of both lines, there were too few to ensure their genetic diversity and were restricted to use as only a genefather.
That.... makes no sense... ???
I suspect it is a temporary measure for reasons like the above, with the potential to improve once some more unblooded Shu warriors earn their bloodname. Though honestly, I don't see why that would prevent them from producing a few sibkos (as gene-mother) from the legacies they do have. Otherwise it creates a weird situation. When those Bloodnames come up for Trial of Bloodright in the future, if Shu has been 'genefather only' for a couple or more generations of warriors, the pool of warriors eligible will be very small (mostly those born before this decision was made). That means lesser warriors could have a shot at a bloodname because competition is scarce.
I figure the decision was made by the scientists, not the warriors, who are more concerned about genetic diversity. Whereas a warriors are more likely to be concerned with seeing their Bloodname House grow like a weed.
Considering that it is already "limited" to 5 or less legacies and that a warrior "generation" is pretty darn short, it might as well be the kiss of death of the bloodline.
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I'm guessing that its an EXTREMELY temporary measure. As in, it goes back to full status in 5-10 years tops, after a few more unblooded warriors of that line become bloodnamed, and more genetic legacies in storage have had time to be sorted through (to find any that are usable). A generational gap sure, but not necessarily the kiss of death.
I think it will just mean that the Shu warriors still living, will have ample opportunities to win a bloodname. If there are only 5 bloodheritages in use, only 5 bloodnamed at any given time, then those other Shu warriors who otherwise might not get the opportunity, will be able to earn a bloodname as those turn over due to warrior death. So the Bloodname House continues to exist, though some might call into question the quality of those warriors (as long as they can hold their own in a Circle of Equals against such slander, they can get through it ok).
If there are already Shu cadets among the living sibkos, among different age groups, and the gene-father status really is limited to 5-10 years, I don't think its the kiss of death. Its far from ideal, but they just might survive it unless some great source of attrition kills off the current and up-and-coming Shu warriors in great numbers.
Honestly in this situation, if they were supposed to be a full Bloodname House with a bloodcount of 25, it would be a far greater crisis. That's a bigger Bloodname House that needs more warriors. More Bloodnames to fill means you need more eligible contenders, not just winners, but competitors who will lose, otherwise its no competition and a victory in a Trial of Bloodright becomes meaningless, damaging the Bloodname's reputation with every poorly won Trial of Bloodright.
Other Bloodname Houses have seen far worse in this era and still survive. It isn't until sometime in the mid to late 3080s that the HW Clans start reusing some Bloodlines, like Carrol, Faraday and Kreese, after they've been certified as clean of tampering by the scientists. I don't imagine there are many warriors of those lines alive, many no doubt died with Clan Fire Mandrill. There could easily be a generational gap of such magnitude that for a while, those Bloodname Houses all but cease to exist, with Trials of Bloodright suspended, until the new generation of warriors is fully matured.
We saw something similar happen with the Clan Mongoose legacies that Clan Cloud Cobra Trialed for after the Smoke Jaguars absorbed them. Those Mongoose warriors were gone, dead or consigned to be Smoke Jaguar cannon fodder (source: Era Report: Golden Century) while a new generation was born in Clan Cloud Cobra's sibkos. I'm sure in the interim, those Bloodname Houses were empty.
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Until they are dead, even if they are in solahma units, digging ditches or destined for the front lines, they still are part of their bloodhouse.
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So, the authors said, in theory, the Coyotes could use Andery's material paternally
Yes, as the Coyotes always have.
and the warriors from the sibko could, in theory, compete for the Kerensky Bloodname.
No. The Coyotes can switch the geneparents and create Kerensky sibkos. There is nothing that stops them from doing so. What I took as a rule was clarified as a tradition that is not binding. So the Coyotes are able to do this just as the Wolves can create Kufahl sibkos. Now that is when the headaches became migraines... :-[
Now looking at the Reaving, I would dare say all bets are off.
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I imagine dealing with all this is part of the reason WHY the Clans haven't appeared to go gonzo on the Inner Sphere yet. They're not just rebuilding 'Mechs, they're rebuilding their entire Warrior population base. I now wonder what nightmares we're going to see when they come back...
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As I understand, the Coyote's have the right to Andery's Blood Legacy as long as it's used Paternally. That's the Legacy
Jenn, to her credit, was thinking 'out of the box' by saying her character was from a Sibko of Andery's genetic material itself
Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.
I mean, I don't see the Wolves doing it either. The whole point of the Eugenics is to improve the line right? When it came time to whip up another Kerensky sibko, they used Natasha's genetic material to make Ranna's sibko. They didn't use Nicholas's.
Neg.
The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).
They don't have access to every warrior that has since held one of Andery's 25 descendent heritages.
Clans do this all the time (See Ghost Bears warrior made from Nicholas's DNA just recently IIRC).
Part of the Eugenics program is tweeking the DNA if needed but the other part is seeing how it combines w/ other warriors.
Maybe a Nicky Kerensky + Franklin Osis combo didn't work 2 centuries ago, but today a Nicky K + Lincoln Osis combo turns out a super sibko of warriors.
Lincoln might be from Franklin sure, but he's had 200 years of mixed breeding & evolution to change & maybe that new combo just rocks.
Many bloodnamed warriors don't even get choosen for new Sibkos right away, IIRC, it might be 3 decades after his/her death that the scientists decide to combine results. Or, they might make 1 sibko right away & wait to see how that sibko is doing by age 10-15 before they decide the results look good enough to try another combo later. I think I even recall a line that a Warrior won't be used more often than every 5 years specifically because they want to see those results. Maybe he was "lucky" after all and wiped out an entire cluster (etc etc) by himself but none of his sibkids show any skill.
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No. The Coyotes can switch the geneparents and create Kerensky sibkos. There is nothing that stops them from doing so. What I took as a rule was clarified as a tradition that is not binding. So the Coyotes are able to do this just as the Wolves can create Kufahl sibkos. Now that is when the headaches became migraines... :-[
Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.
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Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.
Which it WAS....
Inner Sphere Clans don't count anymore as far as the HW Clans are concerned, that means all deals/traditions/agreements made with them (Wolves) are history. Its up to the HW Clans to establish the new order of things.
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Which it WAS....
Inner Sphere Clans don't count anymore as far as the HW Clans are concerned, that means all deals/traditions/agreements made with them (Wolves) are history. Its up to the HW Clans to establish the new order of things.
Uhm, wasn't even discussing that there, but instead referring to Coyotes usage of said name.
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Then I'm just confused. It happens.
[cheers]
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Neg.
The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).
They don't have access to every warrior that has since held one of Andery's 25 descendent heritages.
Clans do this all the time (See Ghost Bears warrior made from Nicholas's DNA just recently IIRC).
Not quite, to the part in bold. From FM:Warden Clans
Galaxy Commander Aleksandr was bred as a MechWarrior in a rare exchange of genetic materials with Clan Wolf. With paternal genetic material derived from Nicholas Kerensky...
Note that it says "rare". So while these things can happen, it does not happen very often. Also, Nicholas's genes were used as the genefather, so no Kerensky bloodname potential for him. As of FM:WC he was a Galaxy Commander without a Bloodname. By the time of FM:Updates he had gained his Jorgensson Bloodname and still was Sigma Galaxy Commander. I didn't see any further mention of him.
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A question that might arise is just how many warriors with either Kerensky's bloodline survived the "cleansing of the Inner Sphere taint" of the Wars of Reaving.
If the reaving was anywhere near reasonably complete, the Coyotes might be able to create a new sibko using Andery's DNA as genemother and, by extension (after the de facto abjuration of the "tainted" IS clans), establish a "new" (Andery) Kerensky Blood House in clan space.
Of course, there might be some issues among the other clans, but since the Wolves can't do a Trial of Refusal, the point would be moot.
The other issue would be that any sibko created would take over 16 years before any of them would be ready to compete for a bloodname.
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Not quite, to the part in bold. From FM:Warden ClansNote that it says "rare". So while these things can happen, it does not happen very often. Also, Nicholas's genes were used as the genefather, so no Kerensky bloodname potential for him. As of FM:WC he was a Galaxy Commander without a Bloodname. By the time of FM:Updates he had gained his Jorgensson Bloodname and still was Sigma Galaxy Commander. I didn't see any further mention of him.
Okay, I think we are reading "Rare" differently.
I see it as the exchange w/ the Wolves was rare.
Not that a sibko using Nikky's DNA was rare.
My point above in using "osis" wasn't to imply a "trade" or the "Bear" example for that matter, I was just using those names.
The same example could relate to NK + Victoria Ward v/s Cyrilla Vard a century later.
Point being they can use "old DNA" in combos any time they want to.
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Okay, I think we are reading "Rare" differently.
I see it as the exchange w/ the Wolves was rare.
Not that a sibko using Nikky's DNA was rare.
My point above in using "osis" wasn't to imply a "trade" or the "Bear" example for that matter, I was just using those names.
The same example could relate to NK + Victoria Ward v/s Cyrilla Vard a century later.
Point being they can use "old DNA" in combos any time they want to.
I think you're reading my response wrong :) I meant as you do, that the exchange between the two Clans was rare. Within a Clan, I expect that productive genes that have a proven track record of producing good warriors are used often. Although my guess is that the scientists and bloodname house leaders had bargained out some kind of schedule priority and which genes could be used with which bloodnames.
A question that might arise is just how many warriors with either Kerensky's bloodline survived the "cleansing of the Inner Sphere taint" of the Wars of Reaving.
If the reaving was anywhere near reasonably complete, the Coyotes might be able to create a new sibko using Andery's DNA as genemother and, by extension (after the de facto abjuration of the "tainted" IS clans), establish a "new" (Andery) Kerensky Blood House in clan space.
Of course, there might be some issues among the other clans, but since the Wolves can't do a Trial of Refusal, the point would be moot.
The other issue would be that any sibko created would take over 16 years before any of them would be ready to compete for a bloodname.
They could, if they had Andery's genes on file in their own backup repositories, which the Wolf force would have cleansed before leaving the homeworlds. Also, with the big deal that was made about the Coyotes having Jennifer Winson's genes, an even bigger one would have been made about Andery's.
What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.
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What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.
This is a very valid point worth considering.....just because a genetic legacy was used, doesn't necessarily mean you have a copy of it in your possession. The Bloodname House Leaders arrange a sibko pairing, the genetic legacies are used, embryos are created, the genetic legacies go back in storage in their respective Clans. Even if you have a deal where this happens with some degree of regularity.
If you want to have the genetic legacy to keep, you fight for it.
I don't know if that's how it works or not, just a theory, but a plausible one. Access/trade/arrangement may not include "possession". That would explain why what the Wolves did instantly meant that as far as the HW Clans were aware, the Kerensky legacies were gone. I haven't read anything in the WoR book that said Clan Wolf hit a Clan Coyote facility to destroy THEIR copy of any Kerensky legacy. Maybe they just didn't (and don't) have one.
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The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).
If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.
Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.
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If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.
Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.
Nope, that was only permitted for the very first generation of trueborns born back at the inception of the Clans. Every generation after that first one has been restricted to the genemother's bloodname.
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If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.
Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.
Nope, that was only permitted for the very first generation of trueborns born back at the inception of the Clans. Every generation after that first one has been restricted to the genemother's bloodname.
What he said ^^^
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What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the AK/DK sibkos were mixed at the Strana Mechty master facility so that no samples ever had to travel anywhere.
But that's just a guess.
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If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the AK/DK sibkos were mixed at the Strana Mechty master facility so that no samples ever had to travel anywhere.
But that's just a guess.
Well, I was considering the possibility that the Coyotes & Wolves may not have had their iron wombs/sibkos on Strana Mechty. You hear of other Clans with their main training grounds in other places and in that case it's much easier to have the iron wombs there, or at least on the same planet, no need to transport them elsewhere after decanting.
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Well, I was considering the possibility that the Coyotes & Wolves may not have had their iron wombs/sibkos on Strana Mechty. You hear of other Clans with their main training grounds in other places and in that case it's much easier to have the iron wombs there, or at least on the same planet, no need to transport them elsewhere after decanting.
Gotcha.
FWIW, each clan has 1 (or more) Military Training Facilities this is true, but Per WoK (IIRC) any sizable enclave has a copy of their entire Eugenics program & sibko birthing facility.
After all, you can ship kids off to Military School but babies need to be born all over your territory.
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Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.
Exclusive as controlling the Blood House of Kerensky by majority? Yes.
Exclusive as no non Wolf Kerensky Bloodnamed exist? No.
It took years to clarify much of this, so as time passed things changed. I believe the exclusivity of the Kerensky Bloodname is one of them.
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They could, if they had Andery's genes on file in their own backup repositories, which the Wolf force would have cleansed before leaving the homeworlds. Also, with the big deal that was made about the Coyotes having Jennifer Winson's genes, an even bigger one would have been made about Andery's.
I'm not as convinced as you are on this point. Andery was always a background entity with no real info until the last few years. As far as that goes, for a very long time we were unsure if he even had a Blood Legacy, much less how it tied in to the grand scheme of the Clans.
Since the Coyotes were only using the DNA in a paternal lineage, it may have been discounted by the Wolves as being undesirable. Jennifer Winson on the other hand may have other ties that each Clan covets more than Anderys for whatever reason. I know why I think that would be but cannot prove it.
Paul
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I don't think the Coyotes can legally claim Kerensky bloodrights, under Clan law. But a lot of funny buisness has gone on during the Wars of Reaving. I wouldn't be just terribly surprised if some existing warriors of the Kufahl bloodhouse petitioned to be allowed to claim the Kerensky name as "first generation descendants of Andery Kerensky" or something like that. I don't think the Coyotes still have a copy, nor do I think hey can produce more such sibkos, but it wouldn't surprise me if political maneuvering led to a restart of the Kerensky bloodhouse through such warriors, even if it violates Clan Law. After all, in the Clans might makes right. A Trial of Refusal makes it a valid interpretation of Clan Law.
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So here's an out-there thought.
We know that both the Wolves and the WiE (as of the FMs) both had genetic legacies for the Kerensky/Winson bloodlines, as mentioned earlier in the thread. It's safe to assume that this is known in-universe by intelligence organizations and the like- it IS in a Field Manual, after all, which is an in-universe publication. So that means Wolf Clan AND Wolf Clan 2 (Wolf Harder) would have copies of the genetic material, and that any slightly competent intelligence organization- even the Watch- know this.
As we saw in the opening fiction in WoR, the Wolves blew up their repository (and it was mentioned that the Coyote one was blown up too), and so the Home Clans believe the legacies were destroyed forever. And in the Homeworlds, this is true- they don't know of the sneaking-out of the material from the Wolf repository on Strana Mechty, so they're assuming it's totally lost in the rubble and chaos of the destruction of the repository.
But... you know where I'm going with this. If the Exiles have copies, wouldn't the Home Clans be aware of that? And despite the taint of the Inner Sphere, wouldn't that be worth a covert mission (hamfisted as their Watch operations are) to try to snatch it? I'm not talking a military raid or anything, but spies and such at least making an attempt? Risk aside, it IS the Founder's bloodline at stake.
Granted it's one in the morning here and I'm sure I'm missing some vital detail or other.
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Well, it'd be a certain suicide mission even if they're successful. They get back to clan space, hand over the genes, and get executed for being tainted by their exposure to the IS. Which means, as has been discussed elsewhere, even their lines are considered corrupt, and reaved. So they can't be placated by thoughts of getting their genes mixed with the Kerenskys as a reward, probably not going to get a passage in the Remembrance, etc. So who's going to take that mission?
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Maybe Watch operatives would be the answer; warriors who are ready to sacrifice their personal honor (and lives) in order to aid their Clan. Of course you could probably get a group of non-bloodnamed solahma (there's most likely some who are already in the Watch actually) who have no future chance of glory to do it by convincing them with pretty easily...
"hey sure if you return alive you'll be executed for being tainted but look at yourself. You have no chance of having your genes added to future sibkos and with your position now you'll probably just be used as cannon fodder against bandits. Why not use this as one last chance to gain glory for yourself and your clan?"
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I don't think the Coyotes can legally claim Kerensky bloodrights, under Clan law. But a lot of funny buisness has gone on during the Wars of Reaving. I wouldn't be just terribly surprised if some existing warriors of the Kufahl bloodhouse petitioned to be allowed to claim the Kerensky name as "first generation descendants of Andery Kerensky" or something like that. I don't think the Coyotes still have a copy, nor do I think hey can produce more such sibkos, but it wouldn't surprise me if political maneuvering led to a restart of the Kerensky bloodhouse through such warriors, even if it violates Clan Law. After all, in the Clans might makes right. A Trial of Refusal makes it a valid interpretation of Clan Law.
The problem with your argument is the manner in which clan law decides matters; No other clan could use matrilineal Kerensky DNA because the Wolves defended their claim to those legacies. Once the Wolves are abjured, as far as the homeworld clans are concerned, they have no standing to conduct a Trial of Refusal against another clan's use/claim on those legacies OR defend a Trial of Possession for those genes.
In theory, IF such DNA were available, all the homeworld "clans in good standing" could compete amongst themselves to have possession/control of said DNA.
Say the Coyotes announce that they will use Andery's DNA from storage to re-establish the bloodhouse in the homeworlds; the other clans are well within their rights to request Trials of Possession for access to that DNA, which the Coyotes would have to defend.
Now suppose that the Adders have in their possession the DNA of a matrilinearly-descended warrior of Andery’s bloodhouse they captured as abthaka; they have, in theory, the control of the physical DNA of Andery’s line. Since the Coyotes have “priority control” (basically, they have the first generation genes; much “purer” than those of the Adder’s warrior) of the genes, they can challenge for a ToP or ToR to either prevent the Adders from using the genes at all, force them to use them only patrilinearly or gain a copy of the warrior’s DNA.
Any clan that has a captured warrior of a bloodhouse from one of the abjured clans has essentially free reign and control of that legacy, possibly turning a once-exclusive bloodname into a shared bloodname.
That being said, assuming that the homeworld clans do have access to matrilinear Kerensky DNA, the question would be if they would want to use it, given its “inner sphere taint”.
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That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA. When they were making Kufahl/Kerensky sibkos, they were borrowing samples from the Wolves. All they have are a few (well, theoretically at least one) warriors with Kerensky patrilineal DNA. I'm saying that those warriors, as the last in the homeworlds with any Kerensky DNA could essentially ignore that it's just patrilineal, and claim the Kerensky bloodname anyway, usin the fact that first-generation Bloodnamed were allowed to pick either parent's name as "precedent" for their claim. It's less a continuation, and more a "refounding" of the House, but they're conveniently ignoring that.
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That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA. When they were making Kufahl/Kerensky sibkos, they were borrowing samples from the Wolves.
Thing is that we don't know for a canon fact just how the DNA was handled during and after the "borrowing" for each relevant sibko; the Coyotes may have a canister in their freezer labeled "Property of Clan Wolf, do not use without authorization or Trial of Possession" with convenient single-use packets inside.
All they have are a few (well, theoretically at least one) warriors with Kerensky patrilineal DNA. I'm saying that those warriors, as the last in the homeworlds with any Kerensky DNA could essentially ignore that it's just patrilineal, and claim the Kerensky bloodname anyway, usin the fact that first-generation Bloodnamed were allowed to pick either parent's name as "precedent" for their claim. It's less a continuation, and more a "refounding" of the House, but they're conveniently ignoring that.
Basically, they'd be founding the Kufahl-Kerensky Blood House.
I don't know; there are ways of getting matrilinear DNA in other ways; from abthaka warriors, solahma warriors forced into retirement, test-down trueborns captured as isorla (it's the Coyotes; they can give them a second/third Trial of Position to be infantry or vehicle crew).
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Thing is that we don't know for a canon fact just how the DNA was handled during and after the "borrowing" for each relevant sibko; the Coyotes may have a canister in their freezer labeled "Property of Clan Wolf, do not use without authorization or Trial of Possession" with convenient single-use packets inside.
That's true, but I just can't imagine the Wolves leaving it there and not making its destruction part of the deal that got the 'Yotes the Winson name. Plus, the Winson heritage is described in WoRS as "the last of the Founder's legacies", which seems unlikely if there was an unopened bottle of vintage Kerensky in the freezer.
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That's true, but I just can't imagine the Wolves leaving it there and not making its destruction part of the deal that got the 'Yotes the Winson name. Plus, the Winson heritage is described in WoRS as "the last of the Founder's legacies", which seems unlikely if there was an unopened bottle of vintage Kerensky in the freezer.
Remember the whole mess with the Society, the Reaving Wars and the general chaos of the era; it's not inconceivable that such a canister (even if "legal") got lost in the shuffle and later found.
I still think that it is more likely that the DNA can be obtained from captured trueborns; you don't need to have a bloodname (or even be a warrior) to be of a bloodhouse.
Heck; we have all forgotten that the homeworld clans do have access to Kerensky DNA; Alexander Kerensky's; his body was preserved and kept on McKenna's Pride.
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I would rather see somewhat of a "Payback", when the Homeclans return to the IS.
Like a similar "Commando" action as the Wolves did on Strana Mechty >:D
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That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA.
I cannot say for sure but we probably do as nothing has been stated to the contrary that we do not. Maybe its a 'rainy day' legacy? ;)
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That speech and the wolf actions during Reaving were my favourite from the wolves since Tukayyid
Quite True. Can't wait to see if the home clans even find out the truth and their reaction to it.