Hypothetical: What if the Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats took Terra?

[Trailblazer]

What do you think the reaction of the other Clans would be if the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats were brought in during the Jihad, managed to conquer Terra away from the Word of Blake, and then declared themselves ilClan?

[martian]

What do you think the reaction of the other Clans would be if the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats were brought in during the Jihad, managed to conquer Terra away from the Word of Blake, and then declared themselves ilClan?

The whole idea is very very optimistic one. Exiles had three Galaxies, one of them second-line. Nova Cats had six or seven Galaxies. That's not much. With inevitable heavy losses, they would be challenged to Trial by other Clans. In such weakened state, they would probably lose. For more info, check ilKhan Garret Sainze during Wars of Reaving. Yeah, it wouldn't be identical situation, the reasons would be different, but you get the general idea. Among Clans, it's not that important what you capture, but if you can hold it and defend your claim. Nonsense.

Clan Wolf-in-Exile and Clan Nova Cat are both Abjured clans. Even if they reached Terra somehow, and even defeated Word of Blake there, it has no meaning for Inner Sphere Clans from the Council of Six. For those six Clans, the goal of becoming IlClan would stayed exactly the same as before. From their point-of-view, Abjured clans are no longer Clans and therefore can't claim being IlClan.

[TigerShark]

The six Inner Sphere Clans don't even recognize the Abjured as "Clans." I don't think they'd regard any claim to ilClan from the Exiled Wolves or Nova Cats with any weight, whatsoever.

[Sid]

What do you think the reaction of the other Clans would be if the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats were brought in during the Jihad, managed to conquer Terra away from the Word of Blake, and then declared themselves ilClan?

Well, I would imagine both would put the other Clan in 'hot water'- especially if it was the Exiles.  Both Clans are still viewed with suspicion and distrust by their...erm..hosts.

If one of the two was to suddenly take Terra (from WoB, RotS, Wolverines, Aliens whatever) and made a claim to ilClan...leader of the Clans.

Well, Warden intention or not, I would think many people who were suspicious would be proven 'correct' by the sudden turn.

And if one of the pet Clans can go rabid...so can the other.

That's how the Inner Sphere would react, I'd imagine.

As for the rest of the Clans?

The Council of Six wouldn't acknowledge it.  As they said in 'Wars of Reaving' when the Sharks brought them up-  they're 'not Clan'. 

And the Homeworlds? Much the same I'd imagine.

In other words, the Nova Cats and the Exiles might acknowledge the other's ilClanship, but they'd be the only ones...and they would lose friends and make enemies for nothing.

[Hellraiser]

Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a bit of a Tangent, but since we are talking about "Abjured" clans anyway.....

WiE (Portion of Wolf Clan)  -  Abjured 3057  (Initiated by Jade Falcons)
Nova Cats  -  Abjured 3060  (Initiated by Smoke Jaguars?)
Clan Wolf  -  Abjured 3070+  (Initiated by Steel Vipers?)

So, why again is my beloved Clan Wolf still a member of the "Council of Six" ?

For that matter,  I never did finish reading Wars of Reaving  (BAD ME!!)

Were any of the other IS Clans Abjured ?   (All of them?)

I really need to get back to reading that book & finish it already.

[Dragon Cat]

I think it would have been a funny as hell not so much because the other Clans wouldn't recognized them but the Clan populations and the Clans themselves would be looking at each other going

How?

What were we doing?

Em... maybe these guys have a point...

I just think it would be one of the funniest things going

[Maelwys]

The Wolves are still part of the Council of Six because the IS Clans basically decided to ignore anything the Homeworld Clans did.

The WiE and Nova Cats are still abjured because the IS Clans helped do it, so obviously that's "correct," but since the abjuring of the Wolves was done by someone else, its not.

Its a pretty little bit of hypocrisy :)

[Trailblazer]

I didn't actually realize the Wolf Exiles had been abjured.  Didn't they take Jaguar bondsmen during Operation Bulldog?  I'm surprised they were able to pull that off, if they didn't have the status of a real Clan.

[cold1]

The following clans are abjured:
WiE
Nova Cats
Wolf
Falcon
Shark
Raven
Horse (minus Zeta now Lions)
Scorpion
(not sure on the official status of the Bears but they're IS only)

If any of them take Terra I will put money on that being the Catalyst for the homeworlders invading.

If either group the 6 don't recognize takes Terra and claims to be Ilclan that would probably be bad as well.

It's not so much taking Terra that will get blood boiling but declaring ilclanship.

[Alan Grant]

Clan treatment of Abjured Clans is very inconsistent, especially pre-Wars of Reaving. Some Clans do business with them, trade with them, aid them, treat them like honorable foes. Others see them purely as bandits to be squashed or ignored. Sometimes a Clan Council or Khan decides policy, sometimes it's the Star Colonel dealing with them face-to-face.

Don't forget, on a number of occasions, defeated Clanners have offered themselves as bondsmen to Inner Sphere opponents. They treat abjured Clans much the same way.

[cold1]

The Sharks trade with everyone though.  The DA Wolves working with the WiE is well strange.

The Falcons and Bears do not take that stuff lightly and the homeclans would flip.  Again its not taking Terra but claiming to be ilclan.

[Trailblazer]

Don't forget, on a number of occasions, defeated Clanners have offered themselves as bondsmen to Inner Sphere opponents. They treat abjured Clans much the same way.

Good point.  The Dragoons took a bunch of them on Luthien.

[Jellico]

What do you think the reaction of the other Clans would be if the Wolves-in-Exile or the Nova Cats were brought in during the Jihad, managed to conquer Terra away from the Word of Blake, and then declared themselves ilClan?

Well, I think the key point there is "were brought in". It's Stone's victory not the Clans'.

LoT makes it clear that the Clans were pretty accepting of this fact and were annoyed that no one believed them. Sure, warriors might make an issues of it, but the commanding officers had taken the issue of IlKhan off the table.

So, the appropriate response would be to ask Stone to tell his Clans to pull their heads in before they get chopped off. Stone would probably support the chopping of CNC or CWiE were that stupid.

[Sid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a bit of a Tangent, but since we are talking about "Abjured" clans anyway.....

WiE (Portion of Wolf Clan)  -  Abjured 3057  (Initiated by Jade Falcons)
Nova Cats  -  Abjured 3060  (Initiated by Smoke Jaguars?)
Clan Wolf  -  Abjured 3070+  (Initiated by Steel Vipers?)

So, why again is my beloved Clan Wolf still a member of the "Council of Six" ?

For that matter,  I never did finish reading Wars of Reaving  (BAD ME!!)

Were any of the other IS Clans Abjured ?   (All of them?)

I really need to get back to reading that book & finish it already.

Essentially, yes, the Council of Six are Abjured-  the Home Clans didn't bother to include them in the proceedings, as- in the case of Clan Wolf- they not have had the necessary votes otherwise.

Wolf was one of the earliest, if not the first, as I recall, and specifically done behind both the Bears and the Falcons' backs, and initially kept secret from them.

So you can imagine why the Council of Six don't consider it a legal vote.

[TigerShark]

Actually, that's all correct but with a caveat. There was a specific abjuration made with the Wolves, while the others were made as an afterthought of the conflict. This was done to keep former decisions in line with current policy. They literally sat at a table and said, "by the way, these guys are considered abjured. Agreed?" It was that simple after the Wars of Reaving were completed.

- The Snow Ravens had not been specifically censured or abjured. They simply abandoned their enclave after a series of defeats. - The Jade Falcons were simply wiped off the map by the Vipers.
- The Horses were deemed corrupt (all those who had set foot in the Inner Sphere) and those left behind became the Stone Lions.
- Ghost Bear left of its own accord when the trouble started.
- Diamond Shark had been prosecuted by several Clans for trading with the Spheroids. I don't recall the specifics of their departure. I don't believe they were abjured until late in the campaign, however; they just lost their major enclaves and survived through prudent planning.

[Nerroth]

The Ravens, Bears, Sharks and Falcons were not "officially" Abjured until the Grand Council meeting aboard the McKenna's Pride in February 3075; that same session eventially led, among many other things, to the Abjuration of the Horses within the Inner Sphere, and to the Trial of Refusal that would result in the formation of Clan Stone Lion.

(And those were just two significant decisions among several made in that particular Council session; quite a busy one, all told, even if it was likely somewhat overshadowed by the one held on the 29th of July that same year...)

[Neufeld]

- Diamond Shark had been prosecuted by several Clans for trading with the Spheroids. I don't recall the specifics of their departure. I don't believe they were abjured until late in the campaign, however; they just lost their major enclaves and survived through prudent planning.

The Sharks got some special attention from the Coyotes and the Society for having merchants more influential than scientists.

[Archangel]

WHAT?!?!  :o

You didn't know that this has been Khan Ulric Kerensky's plan from the beginning?  And that both Phelan and Vlad have been cooperating.  Have Phelan's Wolves pretend to break faith with the Clans, get in good with the Inner Sphere, sneak in and seize Terra, declare themselves as part of Clan Wolf again and voila Clan Wolf is the ilClan.   ;D

[Kojak]

Clan treatment of Abjured other Clans is very inconsistent especially pre-Wars of Reaving. Some Clans do business with them, trade with them, aid them, treat them like honorable foes. Others see them purely as bandits to be squashed or ignored. Sometimes a Clan Council or Khan decides policy, sometimes it's the Star Colonel dealing with them face-to-face.

Fixed that for you. You're welcome.  O:-)

[Fireangel]

Regardless of the actual status of the abjured clan that takes Terra, the Homeworld clans (and quite possibly the Falcons, but that's just their natural reaction) are going to throw an epic-grade hissy-fit. Whether they actually try do do something about it or not is a matter of conjecture, but I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to be having a surplus of "panties up in a bunch" to sell.