Zellbriggen and indirect interference

[Akalabeth]

In our group we play with miniatures and have the added caveat that units block line of sight to one another.

So in the context of zellbriggen, if two mechs are dueling and a third mech belonging to one side or the other gets in the way and blocks the line of fire how would the clans react? One can even go to the extreme, and say one mech is at a disadvantage (perhaps it has shut down) and a friendly mech just "happens" to get in the way.

If the mech from the opposing team shot at the interfering machine would it be dezgra? Or by interfering would the third mech be opening itself up to combat and essentially, joining the duel (assume the third mech's already in a duel with a fourth mech).

Obviously for most boardgame battles this wont be an issue, but I don't know if such a scenario has ever come up in the novels or is address within the sourcebook or rules.

[markhall]

MY take is that this will come down to a "He said/She said" With both parties trying to claim the "We are Correct" Ground.

The Unit shooting can always state he was attempting to hit his Valid target when the blocking unit ran into his shots.

Where as the Defending units will make statements about not being Warrior enough to keep your target in his sights. No matter what other chaos happens on the field.

But as is the clan way both sides will be right until a trail of Grievance leaves one of them spitting teeth on the floor.



My own take.
If the other mech is involved in its own fight and just moving for better shots or cover. Then fine.

If the mech from the opposing team shot at the interfering machine would it be dezgra?

There is nothing dezgra about taking on more challengers.  Especially when you already appear to have the upper hand.

The 3rd unit would be Dezgra if it fired on you while you where finishing off the duel.  If a mech is foolish enough to put itself between you and your target. Then it's fair game the way I play. So long as no one else is currently Duelling against it. If they are then best leave him to them.

[A. Lurker]

We don't necessarily need an "units block LOS" rule for something like this to come up. Even in standard games, a third party could "accidentally" interfere with a duel in a number of ways -- like, say, by just happening to move so that its ECM bubble keeps covering its dueling buddy...

If that happened to me as a Clan player, then unless playing "in character" called for something else I'd probably just make a quick judgment call based on whether the interloper was in a duel of his or her own and how confident I felt that I could take them on as well as my original target. As markhall pointed out, there's nothing dishonorable about taking on more challengers at any time as long as they're still free.

[Akalabeth]

Well, the main thing was that the guy in the middle of things was already involved in another duel (though was thusfar undamaged). So four mechs were involved in two separate duels, and one of those four got between the other two while on the way to a fourth.

Thing is with zellbriggen I can see potential for abuse, if one mech involved in a duel for example is really on the ropes and shutdowns or just loses initiative (or is overheated) then a third mech might "happen" to get in the way, though among the clans shielding a friendly mech seems very unclan like and probably wouldn't happen (at least among the trueborns). 

[Sid]

Well, the main thing was that the guy in the middle of things was already involved in another duel (though was thusfar undamaged). So four mechs were involved in two separate duels, and one of those four got between the other two while on the way to a fourth.

Rulewise, I'd just use the dezgra point system.  Under the system (First published in First Strike! as I recall) a unit that intentionally moves out of line of sight earns a dezgra 'point'.  There are other ways of earning points, such as moving out of range for all its weapons.  A unit can earn 1 dezgra point per turn from what I remember, and if it hits 3 points, his opponent can declare him dezgra and Zellbrigen is dropped against him.

If you got a turn without earning any dezgra points, you can lose a point.

It was originally created to prevent a spider challengine a Direwolf and kiting it around the map while other units beat on it- with the Dire Wolf being unable to fight back due to adhering to 'Level 1' Zellbrigen.

In this case, I would say if a unit has already moved- and then an opponent's mech moves so as to block its LOS, it earns a dezgra point.  If the opponent moves in such a way as to hide behind another unit (either faction) and breaks LOS, it earns a dezgra per the original rule.

[TigerShark]

It's a very subjective matter. How each commander would react comes down to each game and the person role playing. There isn't any one answer, frankly.

The biggest factor would be the nature of the Clan's zellbrigen. If they're Opportunistic, this may be the trigger necessary to spark a Melee. If Liberal, the unit itself may be declared dezgra.

[monty]

It's a very subjective matter. How each commander would react comes down to each game and the person role playing. There isn't any one answer, frankly.

The biggest factor would be the nature of the Clan's zellbrigen. If they're Opportunistic, this may be the trigger necessary to spark a Melee. If Liberal, the unit itself may be declared dezgra.

+1

Zellbriggen is a set of guidelines for honourable combat & its about playing as if you were an honourable clan warrior. The dezgra point are fine as a guide but a lot of it is down to circumstance. Are you opportunistic/liberal? Does it suit you to declare a melee?Have you encountered questionable behavior from this opponent before? What are relations like between your factions? How important is the trial?  Participants in a Wolf/Goliath Scorpion trial for control of a farming village will probably be much more inclined to give one another the benefit of the doubt than a Jade Falcon/Steel Viper trial for a major city.

At the end of the day zellbriggen is about role-playing rather than following a set of game rule IMHO.

[Porkins]

The biggest factor would be the nature of the Clan's zellbrigen. If they're Opportunistic, this may be the trigger necessary to spark a Melee. If Liberal, the unit itself may be declared dezgra.

I totally agree with this. 

[Akalabeth]

Well the battle itself was an inter-kindraa trial between some of the Fire Mandrill factions (specifically Kline&Payne), basically a trial for battle rights in the same way they fought one another prior to the invasion trials. So yeah suppose the best thing to do is just to roleplay it.