Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname

[Hellraiser]

As I understand, the Coyote's have the right to Andery's Blood Legacy as long as it's used Paternally.  That's the Legacy

Jenn, to her credit, was thinking 'out of the box' by saying her character was from a Sibko of Andery's genetic material itself

Which the Coyotes would never have (nor have) used Andery's genetic material itself.

I mean, I don't see the Wolves doing it either.  The whole point of the Eugenics is to improve the line right?  When it came time to whip up another Kerensky sibko, they used Natasha's genetic material to make Ranna's sibko.  They didn't use Nicholas's.

Neg.

The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).

They don't have access to every warrior that has since held one of Andery's 25 descendent heritages.

Clans do this all the time (See Ghost Bears warrior made from Nicholas's DNA just recently IIRC).


Part of the Eugenics program is tweeking the DNA if needed but the other part is seeing how it combines w/ other warriors.

Maybe a Nicky Kerensky + Franklin Osis combo didn't work 2 centuries ago, but today a Nicky K + Lincoln Osis combo turns out a super sibko of warriors.
Lincoln might be from Franklin sure, but he's had 200 years of mixed breeding & evolution to change & maybe that new combo just rocks.


Many bloodnamed warriors don't even get choosen for new Sibkos right away, IIRC, it might be 3 decades after his/her death that the scientists decide to combine results.  Or, they might make 1 sibko right away & wait to see how that sibko is doing by age 10-15 before they decide the results look good enough to try another combo later.   I think I even recall a line that a Warrior won't be used more often than every 5 years specifically because they want to see those results.  Maybe he was "lucky" after all and wiped out an entire cluster (etc etc) by himself but none of his sibkids show any skill.

[Hellraiser]

No.  The Coyotes can switch the geneparents and create Kerensky sibkos.  There is nothing that stops them from doing so.  What I took as a rule was clarified as a tradition that is not binding.  So the Coyotes are able to do this just as the Wolves can create Kufahl sibkos.  Now that is when the headaches became migraines...  :-[

Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.

[Alan Grant]

Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.

Which it WAS....

Inner Sphere Clans don't count anymore as far as the HW Clans are concerned, that means all deals/traditions/agreements made with them (Wolves) are history. Its up to the HW Clans to establish the new order of things.

[Hellraiser]

Which it WAS....

Inner Sphere Clans don't count anymore as far as the HW Clans are concerned, that means all deals/traditions/agreements made with them (Wolves) are history. Its up to the HW Clans to establish the new order of things.

Uhm, wasn't even discussing that there, but instead referring to Coyotes usage of said name.

[Alan Grant]

Then I'm just confused. It happens.

 [cheers]

[wantec]

Neg.

The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).

They don't have access to every warrior that has since held one of Andery's 25 descendent heritages.

Clans do this all the time (See Ghost Bears warrior made from Nicholas's DNA just recently IIRC).

Not quite, to the part in bold. From FM:Warden Clans

Galaxy Commander Aleksandr was bred as a MechWarrior in a rare exchange of genetic materials with Clan Wolf. With paternal genetic material derived from Nicholas Kerensky...

Note that it says "rare". So while these things can happen, it does not happen very often. Also, Nicholas's genes were used as the genefather, so no Kerensky bloodname potential for him. As of FM:WC he was a Galaxy Commander without a Bloodname. By the time of FM:Updates he had gained his Jorgensson Bloodname and still was Sigma Galaxy Commander. I didn't see any further mention of him.

[Fireangel]

A question that might arise is just how many warriors with either Kerensky's bloodline survived the "cleansing of the Inner Sphere taint" of the Wars of Reaving.

If the reaving was anywhere near reasonably complete, the Coyotes might be able to create a new sibko using Andery's DNA as genemother and, by extension (after the de facto abjuration of the "tainted" IS clans), establish a "new" (Andery) Kerensky Blood House in clan space.

Of course, there might be some issues among the other clans, but since the Wolves can't do a Trial of Refusal, the point would be moot.

The other issue would be that any sibko created would take over 16 years before any of them would be ready to compete for a bloodname.

[Hellraiser]

Not quite, to the part in bold. From FM:Warden ClansNote that it says "rare". So while these things can happen, it does not happen very often. Also, Nicholas's genes were used as the genefather, so no Kerensky bloodname potential for him. As of FM:WC he was a Galaxy Commander without a Bloodname. By the time of FM:Updates he had gained his Jorgensson Bloodname and still was Sigma Galaxy Commander. I didn't see any further mention of him.

Okay, I think we are reading "Rare" differently.

I see it as the exchange w/ the Wolves was rare.

Not that a sibko using Nikky's DNA was rare.


My point above in using "osis" wasn't to imply a "trade" or the "Bear" example for that matter,  I was just using those names.

The same example could relate to NK + Victoria Ward v/s Cyrilla Vard a century later.

Point being they can use "old DNA" in combos any time they want to.

[wantec]

Okay, I think we are reading "Rare" differently.

I see it as the exchange w/ the Wolves was rare.

Not that a sibko using Nikky's DNA was rare.


My point above in using "osis" wasn't to imply a "trade" or the "Bear" example for that matter,  I was just using those names.

The same example could relate to NK + Victoria Ward v/s Cyrilla Vard a century later.

Point being they can use "old DNA" in combos any time they want to.

I think you're reading my response wrong :) I meant as you do, that the exchange between the two Clans was rare. Within a Clan, I expect that productive genes that have a proven track record of producing good warriors are used often. Although my guess is that the scientists and bloodname house leaders had bargained out some kind of schedule priority and which genes could be used with which bloodnames.

A question that might arise is just how many warriors with either Kerensky's bloodline survived the "cleansing of the Inner Sphere taint" of the Wars of Reaving.

If the reaving was anywhere near reasonably complete, the Coyotes might be able to create a new sibko using Andery's DNA as genemother and, by extension (after the de facto abjuration of the "tainted" IS clans), establish a "new" (Andery) Kerensky Blood House in clan space.

Of course, there might be some issues among the other clans, but since the Wolves can't do a Trial of Refusal, the point would be moot.

The other issue would be that any sibko created would take over 16 years before any of them would be ready to compete for a bloodname.

They could, if they had Andery's genes on file in their own backup repositories, which the Wolf force would have cleansed before leaving the homeworlds. Also, with the big deal that was made about the Coyotes having Jennifer Winson's genes, an even bigger one would have been made about Andery's.

What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.

[Alan Grant]

What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.

This is a very valid point worth considering.....just because a genetic legacy was used, doesn't necessarily mean you have a copy of it in your possession. The Bloodname House Leaders arrange a sibko pairing, the genetic legacies are used, embryos are created, the genetic legacies go back in storage in their respective Clans. Even if you have a deal where this happens with some degree of regularity.

If you want to have the genetic legacy to keep, you fight for it.

I don't know if that's how it works or not, just a theory, but a plausible one. Access/trade/arrangement may not include "possession". That would explain why what the Wolves did instantly meant that as far as the HW Clans were aware, the Kerensky legacies were gone. I haven't read anything in the WoR book that said Clan Wolf hit a Clan Coyote facility to destroy THEIR copy of any Kerensky legacy. Maybe they just didn't (and don't) have one.

[Sid]

The Yotes can use Andery's sample any time they want (Paternaly).

If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.

Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.

[wantec]

If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.

Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.

Nope, that was only permitted for the very first generation of trueborns born back at the inception of the Clans. Every generation after that first one has been restricted to the genemother's bloodname.

[Hellraiser]

If that was true, then the Kerensky Bloodname isn't Exclusive.

Any sibko from Andery can make a claim for his Bloodname, regardless if he's used Paternally or Maternally.

Nope, that was only permitted for the very first generation of trueborns born back at the inception of the Clans. Every generation after that first one has been restricted to the genemother's bloodname.

What he said ^^^

[Hellraiser]

What likely happened whenever one of these Dana Kufahl/Andery Kerensky sibkos was being created, scientists from each clan would meet together and closely watch what the other ones were doing with the genetic samples, and then take the sample back home with them to the genetic repository when they were done. I don't think the Wolves gave a copy to the Coyotes for the Coyotes to have, likewise with Coyotes and Dana Kufahl's genes.

If I had to hazard a guess,  I'd say the AK/DK sibkos were mixed at the Strana Mechty master facility so that no samples ever had to travel anywhere.

But that's just a guess.

[wantec]

If I had to hazard a guess,  I'd say the AK/DK sibkos were mixed at the Strana Mechty master facility so that no samples ever had to travel anywhere.

But that's just a guess.

Well, I was considering the possibility that the Coyotes & Wolves may not have had their iron wombs/sibkos on Strana Mechty. You hear of other Clans with their main training grounds in other places and in that case it's much easier to have the iron wombs there, or at least on the same planet, no need to transport them elsewhere after decanting.

[Hellraiser]

Well, I was considering the possibility that the Coyotes & Wolves may not have had their iron wombs/sibkos on Strana Mechty. You hear of other Clans with their main training grounds in other places and in that case it's much easier to have the iron wombs there, or at least on the same planet, no need to transport them elsewhere after decanting. 

Gotcha.

FWIW, each clan has 1 (or more) Military Training Facilities this is true, but Per WoK (IIRC) any sizable enclave has a copy of their entire Eugenics program & sibko birthing facility.

After all, you can ship kids off to Military School but babies need to be born all over your territory.

[Blackhorse 6]

Ah, but, if that was the case then Kerensky wouldn't be an exclusive bloodname, which it is.

Exclusive as controlling the Blood House of Kerensky by majority? Yes.

Exclusive as no non Wolf Kerensky Bloodnamed exist? No.

It took years to clarify much of this, so as time passed things changed.  I believe the exclusivity of the Kerensky Bloodname is one of them.

[Blackhorse 6]

They could, if they had Andery's genes on file in their own backup repositories, which the Wolf force would have cleansed before leaving the homeworlds. Also, with the big deal that was made about the Coyotes having Jennifer Winson's genes, an even bigger one would have been made about Andery's.

I'm not as convinced as you are on this point.  Andery was always a background entity with no real info until the last few years.  As far as that goes, for a very long time we were unsure if he even had a Blood Legacy, much less how it tied in to the grand scheme of the Clans.

Since the Coyotes were only using the DNA in a paternal lineage, it may have been discounted by the Wolves as being undesirable.  Jennifer Winson on the other hand may have other ties that each Clan covets more than Anderys for whatever reason.  I know why I think that would be but cannot prove it.

Paul

[Arkansas Warrior]

I don't think the Coyotes can legally claim Kerensky bloodrights, under Clan law.  But a lot of funny buisness has gone on during the Wars of Reaving.  I wouldn't be just terribly surprised if some existing warriors of the Kufahl bloodhouse petitioned to be allowed to claim the Kerensky name as "first generation descendants of Andery Kerensky" or something like that.  I don't think the Coyotes still have a copy, nor do I think hey can produce more such sibkos, but it wouldn't surprise me if political maneuvering led to a restart of the Kerensky bloodhouse through such warriors, even if it violates Clan Law.  After all, in the Clans might makes right.  A Trial of Refusal makes it a valid interpretation of Clan Law.

[JadeHellbringer]

So here's an out-there thought.

We know that both the Wolves and the WiE (as of the FMs) both had genetic legacies for the Kerensky/Winson bloodlines, as mentioned earlier in the thread. It's safe to assume that this is known in-universe by intelligence organizations and the like- it IS in a Field Manual, after all, which is an in-universe publication. So that means Wolf Clan AND Wolf Clan 2 (Wolf Harder) would have copies of the genetic material, and that any slightly competent intelligence organization- even the Watch- know this.

As we saw in the opening fiction in WoR, the Wolves blew up their repository (and it was mentioned that the Coyote one was blown up too), and so the Home Clans believe the legacies were destroyed forever. And in the Homeworlds, this is true- they don't know of the sneaking-out of the material from the Wolf repository on Strana Mechty, so they're assuming it's totally lost in the rubble and chaos of the destruction of the repository.

But... you know where I'm going with this. If the Exiles have copies, wouldn't the Home Clans be aware of that? And despite the taint of the Inner Sphere, wouldn't that be worth a covert mission (hamfisted as their Watch operations are) to try to snatch it? I'm not talking a military raid or anything, but spies and such at least making an attempt? Risk aside, it IS the Founder's bloodline at stake.

Granted it's one in the morning here and I'm sure I'm missing some vital detail or other.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Well, it'd be a certain suicide mission even if they're successful.  They get back to clan space, hand over the genes, and get executed for being tainted by their exposure to the IS.  Which means, as has been discussed elsewhere, even their lines are considered corrupt, and reaved.  So they can't be placated by thoughts of getting their genes mixed with the Kerenskys as a reward, probably not going to get a passage in the Remembrance, etc.  So who's going to take that mission?

[desaints]

Maybe Watch operatives would be the answer; warriors who are ready to sacrifice their personal honor (and lives) in order to aid their Clan. Of course you could probably get a group of non-bloodnamed solahma (there's most likely some who are already in the Watch actually) who have no future chance of glory to do it by convincing them with pretty easily...         

"hey sure if you return alive you'll be executed for being tainted but look at yourself. You have no chance of having your genes added to future sibkos and with your position now you'll probably just be used as cannon fodder against bandits. Why not use this as one last chance to gain glory for yourself and your clan?"

[Fireangel]

I don't think the Coyotes can legally claim Kerensky bloodrights, under Clan law.  But a lot of funny buisness has gone on during the Wars of Reaving.  I wouldn't be just terribly surprised if some existing warriors of the Kufahl bloodhouse petitioned to be allowed to claim the Kerensky name as "first generation descendants of Andery Kerensky" or something like that.  I don't think the Coyotes still have a copy, nor do I think hey can produce more such sibkos, but it wouldn't surprise me if political maneuvering led to a restart of the Kerensky bloodhouse through such warriors, even if it violates Clan Law.  After all, in the Clans might makes right.  A Trial of Refusal makes it a valid interpretation of Clan Law.

The problem with your argument is the manner in which clan law decides matters; No other clan could use matrilineal Kerensky DNA because the Wolves defended their claim to those legacies. Once the Wolves are abjured, as far as the homeworld clans are concerned, they have no standing to conduct a Trial of Refusal against another clan's use/claim on those legacies OR defend a Trial of Possession for those genes.

In theory, IF such DNA were available, all the homeworld "clans in good standing" could compete amongst themselves to have possession/control of said DNA.

Say the Coyotes announce that they will use Andery's DNA from storage to re-establish the bloodhouse in the homeworlds; the other clans are well within their rights to request Trials of Possession for access to that DNA, which the Coyotes would have to defend.

Now suppose that the Adders have in their possession the DNA of a matrilinearly-descended warrior of Andery’s bloodhouse they captured as abthaka; they have, in theory, the control of the physical DNA of Andery’s line. Since the Coyotes have “priority control” (basically, they have the first generation genes; much “purer” than those of the Adder’s warrior) of the genes, they can challenge for a ToP or ToR to either prevent the Adders from using the genes at all, force them to use them only patrilinearly or gain a copy of the warrior’s DNA.

Any clan that has a captured warrior of a bloodhouse from one of the abjured clans has essentially free reign and control of that legacy, possibly turning a once-exclusive bloodname into a shared bloodname.


That being said, assuming that the homeworld clans do have access to matrilinear Kerensky DNA, the question would be if they would want to use it, given its “inner sphere taint”.

[Arkansas Warrior]

That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA.  When they were making Kufahl/Kerensky sibkos, they were borrowing samples from the Wolves.  All they have are a few (well, theoretically at least one) warriors with Kerensky patrilineal DNA.  I'm saying that those warriors, as the last in the homeworlds with any Kerensky DNA could essentially ignore that it's just patrilineal, and claim the Kerensky bloodname anyway, usin the fact that first-generation Bloodnamed were allowed to pick either parent's name as "precedent" for their claim.  It's less a continuation, and more a "refounding" of the House, but they're conveniently ignoring that.

[Fireangel]

That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA.  When they were making Kufahl/Kerensky sibkos, they were borrowing samples from the Wolves. 

Thing is that we don't know for a canon fact just how the DNA was handled during and after the "borrowing" for each relevant sibko; the Coyotes may have a canister in their freezer labeled "Property of Clan Wolf, do not use without authorization or Trial of Possession" with convenient single-use packets inside.

All they have are a few (well, theoretically at least one) warriors with Kerensky patrilineal DNA.  I'm saying that those warriors, as the last in the homeworlds with any Kerensky DNA could essentially ignore that it's just patrilineal, and claim the Kerensky bloodname anyway, usin the fact that first-generation Bloodnamed were allowed to pick either parent's name as "precedent" for their claim.  It's less a continuation, and more a "refounding" of the House, but they're conveniently ignoring that.

Basically, they'd be founding the Kufahl-Kerensky Blood House.

I don't know; there are ways of getting matrilinear DNA in other ways; from abthaka warriors, solahma warriors forced into retirement, test-down trueborns captured as isorla (it's the Coyotes; they can give them a second/third Trial of Position to be infantry or vehicle crew).

[Arkansas Warrior]

Thing is that we don't know for a canon fact just how the DNA was handled during and after the "borrowing" for each relevant sibko; the Coyotes may have a canister in their freezer labeled "Property of Clan Wolf, do not use without authorization or Trial of Possession" with convenient single-use packets inside.

That's true, but I just can't imagine the Wolves leaving it there and not making its destruction part of the deal that got the 'Yotes the Winson name.  Plus, the Winson heritage is described in WoRS as "the last of the Founder's legacies", which seems unlikely if there was an unopened bottle of vintage Kerensky in the freezer.

[Fireangel]

That's true, but I just can't imagine the Wolves leaving it there and not making its destruction part of the deal that got the 'Yotes the Winson name.  Plus, the Winson heritage is described in WoRS as "the last of the Founder's legacies", which seems unlikely if there was an unopened bottle of vintage Kerensky in the freezer.

Remember the whole mess with the Society, the Reaving Wars and the general chaos of the era; it's not inconceivable that such a canister (even if "legal") got lost in the shuffle and later found.

I still think that it is more likely that the DNA can be obtained from captured trueborns; you don't need to have a bloodname (or even be a warrior) to be of a bloodhouse.

Heck; we have all forgotten that the homeworld clans do have access to Kerensky DNA; Alexander Kerensky's; his body was preserved and kept on McKenna's Pride.
 

[Gaiiten]

I would rather see somewhat of a "Payback", when the Homeclans return to the IS.

Like a similar "Commando" action as the Wolves did on Strana Mechty  >:D

[Blackhorse 6]

That's the thing: the Coyotes dont have matrilineal DNA. 

I cannot say for sure but we probably do as nothing has been stated to the contrary that we do not.  Maybe its a 'rainy day' legacy?   ;)

[Frank]

That speech and the wolf actions during Reaving were my favourite from the wolves since Tukayyid

Quite True.  Can't wait to see if the home clans even find out the truth and their reaction to it.