Re-Establishing the Kerensky Bloodname

[Alan Grant]

Wars of Reaving, page 80 says.

The master genetic files of Jennifer Winson, Nicholas and Andery Kerensky in the Master Repository were also corrupted and destroyed, effectively removing all traces of the Great Founders’ legacies [save those few non-Wolf warriors still alive –SK] from Clan space.

Emphasis on the part in parenthesis. Assuming there are any warriors of either Kerensky Bloodname House (Blooded or Unblooded) left in Clan space, post-Wars of Reaving, could the Clans reconstruct the Kerensky Bloodname House? They'd be starting with a new "founder" for it, one or more legacies of whoever is left in the modern era. But do you think its possible? Why or why not?

[Vlads Fangs]

No need for that,they are just fine,and away from Kerenskys ungrateful Children. }:)

[cold1]

I think they will more likely find a new demi-god... Stanislov N'buta seems to be a really nice fit based on the Supplemental.

[Sid]

No need for that,they are just fine,and away from Kerenskys ungrateful Children. }:)

The Home Clans don't know that though- and may try to 'recreate it'.

Vlad's speech to the Council of Six, however, seems pretty confident the Home Clans no longer have access to it. 

[Dragon Cat]

The Home Clans don't know that though- and may try to 'recreate it'.

Vlad's speech to the Council of Six, however, seems pretty confident the Home Clans no longer have access to it.

That speech and the wolf actions during Reaving were my favourite from the wolves since Tukayyid

[Natasha Kerensky]

... Wars of Reaving, could the Clans reconstruct the Kerensky Bloodname House? They'd be starting with a new "founder" for it, one or more legacies of whoever is left in the modern era. But do you think its possible? Why or why not?

The Coyotes have Jennifer Winson's legacy; the Wolves gifted it to them before leaving Clanspace.

As for the Kerenskys, could someone eligible for a Kerensky bloodname have earned the right to create a new bloodname house in an ilKhan's eyes through some heroic act(s) or stunning victory(ies) during or after the Reavings?  That's possible, per the precedent set by Phelan Kell/Ward. 

But it's not written up as such in WoR, and absent such a feat, I doubt the remaining Homeworld Clans would create a new Kerensky House.  Without a Kerenksy whose achievements approach those of Nick/Andery, it's hard to justify dishonoring the Founders with a third Kerensky House based on political considerations alone.  There would probably be disdain amongst the Clans for doing that in any era.  But post-Reavings, the Homeworld Clans are extremely conservative and closed off culturally.  They'd likely see such a politicized proposal as sign of Spheroid taint and call for a Trial of Annihilation (er, Reaving) against the proposer.

Of course, you could always make up such a (likely unblooded to start) Kerensky character -- maybe a mechwarrior knocked unconscious and taken as isorla during the Wolves' epic defense of their genetic reposity on Strana Mechty.  That individual could then go on to do great, Aidan Pryde-like things during the Reavings and impress Brett Andrews (less ideally because the decision would be overturned) or one of the Star Adder ilKhans (more ideally because the decision would endure), convincing them to create a new Kerensky House.

But again, absent such a remarkable individual (a ristar who has to shine as bright, if not brighter, than Natasha or Ulric Kerensky), I personally don't see the Clans doing this in any era, and especially post-Reavings.

My 2 C-bills... FWIW...

[Alan Grant]

Yes, the Home Clans don't have the Founder's legacy, that's correct and in line with what Vlad said and everything else.

But don't you kinda feel like that would leave any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space in an unusual and potentially advantageous situation? First off, if any are left that are bloodnamed, or earn one, they can reconstitute a Bloodname House right there. It might only consist of (I'm literally making these up) Star Adder Star Captain James Kerensky, and Clan Coyote Star Commander Doug Kerensky (who earned their bloodnames in the 3060s), and three unblooded Kerensky warriors who became bondsmen/adopted warriors prior to the Wars of Reaving, but that small group of warriors could do it. It isn't even the creation of a new Bloodname House, its the reconstitution of an existing one.

If, as we've repeatedly been told, having a Bloodname guarantees a place in your Clan's breeding program, then they'd use those. With Clan Wolf gone, what is to stop Clan Star Adder, from creating a sibko with James Kerensky as genemother, and some Truscott as gene-father, and going from there. (after some perfunctory Trial of Possession for their genetic legacies, a formality, a token fight).

By all indications, the BT authors and writers are not doing this with the Home Clans, but I really don't see why they couldn't if those warriors exist. I feel like any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space, who survived the Reaving (maybe they never set foot in the Inner Sphere, being born/raised/serving in the Homeworlds) and are part of the Home Clans and not abjured, would be in a very strong position going forward. They'd be in a position to have a career boost, and their genetic legacy would be greatly desired by all.

[Archangel]

As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).

[Southern Coyote]

The biggest thing stopping the HW Clans from re-establishing the Kerensky Bloodhouse is tradition, or more accurately, the lack thereof.  The Clans that are left are like Clan concentrate.  They are more Clan than the I.S. Clans (in their eyes, atleast).  We have no knowledge of a situation where a blood house was lost, disbanded, destroyed, etc., and then was re-established using surviving members.  Also, on the list of things to do for the HW Clans, re-establishing the Kerensky Blood House most likely isn't very high up there. 

[Alan Grant]

As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).

Of an abjured Clan, sure. But Abjured means they don't count, in the eyes of the Homeworld Clans, that means they aren't Clan at all anymore. Not too similar from how Clan Wolf-in-Exile and Clan Nova Cat were/are treated. From the Homeworld perspective. Point in fact, Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintained and used virtually identical copies of their Eugenics Program. The Wolves in Exile no longer needed to adhere to the rules, and the Wolves saw theirs as the valid one.

@Southern Coyote

I agree that there might be problems with tradition and protocol, but I disagree with the statement on priority. We know for example, that their possession of the Winson name has greatly benefited the Coyotes, and the other Clans have fought hard to gain even limited access. Not to mention the ravenous self-destruction fight that resulted during the Wars of Reaving when the IlKhan said "whoever wins gets the Kerensky bloodname". My point being, I feel like it would be a priority, a big priority. And in the Post-Wars of Reaving era, genetic "harvesting" missions, to acquire untained, un-messed with legacies is greater than ever. Demand for good trueborn legacies has shot through the roof.

Really that is the only reason I can think of why the Homeworld Clans wouldn't pursue this, if they had the appropriate Kerensky warriors. The scientists have messed with the DNA of those living Kerensky warriors, and its no good, there's a virus or a potential for one in there, even if it wasn't activated by the Society. They can't risk perpetuating a vulnerability like that.

[Sid]

But it's not written up as such in WoR, and absent such a feat, I doubt the remaining Homeworld Clans would create a new Kerensky House.  Without a Kerenksy whose achievements approach those of Nick/Andery, it's hard to justify dishonoring the Founders with a third Kerensky House based on political considerations alone.

It's not just that either.  The only Clan that had the name legitimately was, of course, Wolf.  While the Coyotes may have been able to use Andery's paternally, I'd suspect that if they had any Andery legacies available to use, they'd be in the Kerensky Blood Chapel.

Which is no longer around.

Vlad notes that the Wolf backups have also been destroyed.  I doubt the Coyotes are allowed to possess a backup of Andery's, otherwise Vlad would have (probably) taken those out too.

Any remaining warriors with Kerensky's Bloodline would be paternal, which, as you pointed out, would require an entire new Bloodhouse to be founded...and even then it wouldn't be a 'Kerensky' Bloodhouse.  The Coyote warrior would have no access to claiming the Kerensky Bloodname.

That leaves any remaining Wolf warriors- all the 'still Wolf' warriors were killed in the defense of the Blood Chapel remember, but are now subsequently facing a Trial of Annihilation

So...yeah.  I think Vlad was quite thorough in his guarding of the Kerensky Blood Legacies.

[Alan Grant]

I feel like I'm not making my point. So let me offer a scenario.

Clan Wolf births John, a Kerensky sibko brat born of Ana Kerensky and some other trueborn. John becomes a mechwarrior. At age 25 he earns the Kerensky bloodname in 3060, he serves entirely in the Homeworlds, never seeing the Inner Sphere due to his assignments to the Wolf Clusters defending the Clan's Homeworld Enclaves. In 3063, he's involved in a Trial of Possession against Clan Star Adder and loses. He becomes a bondsman to that Clan. Within a year he is released from his bondcord and becomes a warrior again. He fights for Clan Star Adder now, but of course is still a member of the prestigious Kerensky Bloodname House.

Then the Wars of Reaving happen. Star Captain John Kerensky (Of Clan Star Adder) survives all of this fighting for his new Clan. Having never seen the Inner Sphere, he isn't Reaved. Not being a member of Clan Wolf anymore, he doesn't face abjurement or Annihilation.

What becomes of him now? All of Clan Wolf's Kerensky warriors are gone, but he's still around, can he put out a call to all remaining Kerensky warriors in the Clan Homeworlds to hold a meeting, and elect him the new Bloodname House Leader? Can the Star Adders find a way to justify using his genetic legacy to create sibkos? (which can be acquired with some blood and tissue samples)

[Natasha Kerensky]

But don't you kinda feel like that would leave any Kerensky warriors left in Clan space in an unusual and potentially advantageous situation? First off, if any are left that are bloodnamed, or earn one, they can reconstitute a Bloodname House right there. It might only consist of (I'm literally making these up) Star Adder Star Captain James Kerensky, and Clan Coyote Star Commander Doug Kerensky (who earned their bloodnames in the 3060s), and three unblooded Kerensky warriors who became bondsmen/adopted warriors prior to the Wars of Reaving, but that small group of warriors could do it. It isn't even the creation of a new Bloodname House, its the reconstitution of an existing one.

This is different than what I was assuming.  I was assuming that a new, third Kerensky Bloodhouse would be created in the Homeworlds, with James (or Doug or whoever) Kerensky as its founder.  You're assuming that the remaining Homeworld Clans recreate Nick or Andy's (or both's) Bloodhouses using James, Doug, etc. genetic material.

I think there are a couple issues with your scenario:

1) Can a Bloodhouse be legally reconstituted without the legacy of its founder?

2) Even if yes to (1) above, would the Homeworld Clans disregard the actual legacies of the Kerensky brothers?

The Homeworld Clans have abjured the Wolves and the other Clans in the Inner Sphere.  But they have not abjured the legacies of the Kerenskys.  I don't think the Homeworld Clans are going to disregard the actual legacies of the Kerenskys and establish new ones in their place just because some tainted Wolves have (temporarily) made off with those legacies.

My 2 C-bills is that the only way a Kerensky Bloodhouse will reappear among the Homeworld Clans post-Reavings is if some exceptional Kerensky warrior earns the right to establish a new Bloodhouse or if the Homeworld Clans steal Nick and/or Andy's legacy from the Wolves in the Inner Sphere.

With Clan Wolf gone, what is to stop Clan Star Adder, from creating a sibko with James Kerensky as genemother, and some Truscott as gene-father, and going from there. (after some perfunctory Trial of Possession for their genetic legacies, a formality, a token fight).

This is yet a third possibility -- that a bloodnamed Kerensky left behind and taken isorla in the Homeworlds has his giftake incorporated into a Homeworld Clans' genetic program.  Unless a new or old Kerensky bloodhouse is established/reestabled in the Homeworlds, I think this person could only be the genefather.  But I don't think anything otherwise prevents a bloodnamed Kerensky in the Homeworlds becoming a (probably highly desirable even if he can't carry on his name) part of the Homeworld genepool.

A fourth possibility is that of a Kerensky left behind and taken isorla in the Homeworlds before he has earned his bloodname.  I don't think they could join the Homeworld genepool unless a new or old Kerensky bloodhouse is established/reestabled in the Homeworlds.  Unless there is a Kerensky bloodhouse in the Homeworlds, they won't be able to win their bloodname, and, thus, their giftake won't be used in the Homeworlds' genetic programs.

Again, my 2 c-bills, FWIW.

[Alan Grant]

You are correct in that I think we differ on one key point, the question of whether or not you must have the genetic legacy of a Bloodname's founder, to continue to perpetuate that Bloodname.
 
Personally, I think the answer is no. I have never seen anything anywhere that says you must have that. Otherwise, that would wreck havoc on Clan society (even pre-Wars of Reaving).

Imagine a highly successful, numerous bloodname house with many warrior members, bloodnamed and not, and then that Founder's legacy is accidentally lost somehow, a fire, a mishap. Does the bloodname house cease to exist? I doubt it. It hinges so much, so many lives and legacies and such a huge part of the Clan Eugenics Program on a relatively small number (less than 800) legacies that are hundreds of years old.

That would mean, for example, that when Clan Wolf acquired many of the Widowmaker Bloodlines, they couldn't reconstitute those names unless they gained the founder. Same thing with what the Cloud Cobras did, in grabbing Mongoose lines from the Smoke Jaguars. No Founder, No Bloodname House.

But maybe I'm being smarter than the Clans on this, maybe that's exactly what their rulebook says.

[Sid]

Then the Wars of Reaving happen. Star Captain John Kerensky (Of Clan Star Adder) survives all of this fighting for his new Clan. Having never seen the Inner Sphere, he isn't Reaved. Not being a member of Clan Wolf anymore, he doesn't face abjurement or Annihilation.

First of all, leaving a 25 year old Bloodnamed Kerensky in the Home Worlds doesn't feel right.  Even if he got the Bloodname at 35, it's far too prestigious to just leave in the Home Worlds.  He'd get a frontline assignment up front.  The Kerensky Bloodhouse would ensure it if nothing else.

Even if he was, or, let's say, captured during the...I don't know, Harvest Trials and he either hasn't seen the Inner Sphere or passes any Cleansing Trials...

We're still back to the main problem:

A Trial of Annihilation is the worst punishment that can be inflicted upon a Clan.  Quite literally, they are written out of the books as never existing.  All Trueborns are executed.  All warrriors' descendants are executed.  Hell, every single civilian is sterilized to ensure that no descendants from that Clan exist.  Ever

John Kerensky would be put down like a dog (not a Wolf!).  He'd be shot in the streets.  Exterminated.  Star Adder or not.

Look at the Wolverine genes that wound up in Ghost Bear:  Entire sibkos were *ordered* to commit *suicide* because they had some wolverine DNA in them.

Even if they wanted to spare John Kerensky because of his Bloodname, he still has Wolf legacies in him.  It's not as if he's 100% Kerensky DNA.  There will be Ward in there (Oh, I bet they especially hate Ward legacies now  O:-)).  There will be probably be Radick in there.  There's a good chance he'll have Widowmaker in there too.

So...that Trial of Annihilation pretty much makes that a no go...so what happens if they overturn the Annihilation?  Clan Wolf hasn't yet been destroyed right?  It acts as a Trial of Refusal- and Wolf 'survived' so its innocent of destroying the Founder's Legacies.

We still come back to the issue of John Kerensky, some subpar warrior who wasn't good enough to go to the Inner Sphere and clearly inferior to the God-like Founders being used to recreate it.  It's a spit in the face just like Nat said above.

Don't get me wrong- in your game, run it however you see fit.  As long as you have fun- but there are a lot of hurdles to jump, and as such, I see this as about as likely as the Home Clans adopting Amaris as their new Founder.

[Natasha Kerensky]

What becomes of him now? All of Clan Wolf's Kerensky warriors are gone, but he's still around, can he put out a call to all remaining Kerensky warriors in the Clan Homeworlds to hold a meeting, and elect him the new Bloodname House Leader? Can the Star Adders find a way to justify using his genetic legacy to create sibkos? (which can be acquired with some blood and tissue samples)

Based on your scenario (thanks for spelling it out), I think John Kerensky can only be used as a genefather in the Star Adder genetic program.  For John Kerensky's descendents to have a chance to earn his Kerensky bloodname, John would have to be a genemother.  And for John to be a genemother, one of the two Star Adder ilKhans from WoR would have to establish (or re-establish) a Kerensky bloodhouse.  And if one of the Star Adder ilKhans did that, it would require an extraordinary justification -- either that:

1) John Kerensky's actions as reflected in his codex make him such a Clan studmuffin that he deserves his own bloodhouse, right up there with (or just a notch below) Nicholas and Andery.

Or

2) We (the Homeworld Clans) should just give up on Nicholas and Andery Kerenksy's actual legacies.  Yes, Nick and Andy are our most revered founders, and it's taken 300 years to perfect their legacies to date, but let's face facts -- the tainted Wolves got them and we don't.  So let's just give up and start over with John here.  He is good enough.  Aff?

I can see #1 happening.  Nothing like that is written up in WoR or its supplemental, but nothing keeps you from creating such a character and sequence of events for your own campaign. Would make a great piece of fanfic.

I don't see #2 ever happening at any point in Clan history, but especially with the Homeworld Clans post-Reaving.  Any ilKhan crazy enough to make such a proposal would be challenged to trial after trial until he was dead.  Or, if his Clan was crazy enough to back him, they'd be whacked with enough trials until they knew better, were abjured, or were annihilated.

Again, my 2 cents, FWIW.

[Nerroth]

What I'd wonder about is whether or not there would be enough surviving genetic material for the Coyotes to continue the tradition of using Andery as a gene-parent mixed with Dana Kufahl's legacy; or if that loss was part and parcel of the grand sundering between the Wolves (of either stripe) and the Coyotes post-Reaving.

(Potentially, some of the surviving Kufahls by 3085 may have been created with Dana and Andery as their gene-parents; though if the chance for any future sibkos like them has indeed been lost, it would make them the last of their kind, in a perhaps more poignant way compared to other lost legacies of this era.)


Actually, if the Homeworld Clans show up in the Inner Sphere post-3150, that could be an interesting question to ask; would any Dark Age Kufahls have more of a motivation than the others in explicitly going after Andery's legacy; for its status in and of itself, but also in order to allow them to re-establish their founding Khan's unique connection to the younger Kerensky?

[Vlads Fangs]

I do not see the Wolves leaving Clan Space forever as a option.It might take into the AOD and beyond,but the Wolves will take back what was theirs.It will just take time.

[cold1]

I do not see the Wolves leaving Clan Space forever as a option.It might take into the AOD and beyond,but the Wolves will take back what was theirs.It will just take time.

Yeah.  No one has any clue what lies in the Homeworlds after 3150 and that's 60 years for the clans to conquer their neighbors and seriously rebuild.  The Hansa apparently has a lot of good stuff.  Give the clans resources and they get big again.  The Wolves might try to go back but my guess is 60 years after WoRS the home clans are not going to take that lightly and have the ability to seriously mess up an intruder.

As for Big K's legacy just pull WoR and see if any Kerenskys are commanding clusters in the homeworlds.

[wantec]

As of 3085, both the Khan and saKhan of Clan Wolf are members of House Kerensky (Ivan Kerensky and Anatoli Kerensky respectively).

And the Loremaster too (Katya).

[Vlads Fangs]

Ivan Kerensky? ::)

[Trajan Helmer]

What's wrong with Ivan?

[ClarkeMarek]

What's wrong with Ivan?

Let's just say that it sounds very Russian...

(At least that's how I took it.  If I took it out of context, my apologies.)

[Sid]

Let's just say that it sounds very Russian...

(At least that's how I took it.  If I took it out of context, my apologies.)

That was my assumption too.

Although while Vlad ended up keeping Kat sequestered for the most part and a civilian at that, Ivan is alleged to be spending a lot of time with her privately, where she seems to have quite a bit of influence over him...

That's what I recall from Wars of Reaving, anyway- the (not so) subtle hint that it wasn't until Vlad passed on that Kat found someone to use to begin her rise of power within Clan Wolf.

[Hellraiser]

Besides Quinn w/ the Jade Falcons,  is there any known instance of a Kerensky being in another clan leading up to the Jihad ?

(I thought there was but can't quote it right now)

We know that no clan has Maternal breeding rights to any Kerensky, but I'm not sure if any of them were taken as bondsmen before Quinn.

It might be interesting to count up the # of canon Kerensky references from the WCSB & the FM's to see if all 50 are accounted for.

[Kit deSummersville]

It might be interesting to count up the # of canon Kerensky references from the WCSB & the FM's to see if all 50 are accounted for.

I had the fact checkers look for me a while back, there are nothing close to that.

[Hellraiser]

I had the fact checkers look for me a while back, there are nothing close to that.

That doesn't suprise me at all Kit.

I looked up the WCSB a long while ago & noticed the same thing.  For it being the "best" and "Twice the size" of most Houses there are suprisingly few of them around.

[Alan Grant]

The WCSB and the FMs cover different time periods, so that wouldn't yield the result you seek. Plus the FMs really only show Khans/Galaxy Commanders/Cluster Commanders, a fraction of the warriors in each Clan. Not listed would be things like, Clan warriors serving on warships, or in non-combat posts such as military governors, or as advisers, or sibko trainers even. Plus WCSB didn't cover all of Clan Wolf did it? I think it only covered those Galaxies that participated in Operation Revival, five galaxies worth. Everyone and everything else was back in Clan space.

Bondsmen are a fact of life in the Clans. You fight, you lose, if you survive, you get taken as bondsman. Considering how much the Clans fight, in Trials big and small, that means it happens a lot. My best guess, at least 1 in 15 Clan Trueborn warriors wear the bondcord at least once in their lives. I'm focusing on Trueborns because Freeborns may be treated a little differently by some Clans that don't accept freeborn warriors. Also to the bondholder, in some Clans, a bondsman is almost like a living trophy, proof of your strength and success, at least until he becomes a warrior again. It goes hand in hand with the "waste nothing" mentality.

Mechs and ASFs have ejection seats, Elemental armor has features that can help keep a warrior alive until Clan medical science can do its thing. All of these factors mean warriors do survive battles, even the ones they lose. So when you read that in some fight the "entire Cluster X of Clan Y was destroyed", they could have taken dozens of bondsmen from that.

Bondsmen help sustain the Clan way of life. With so much fighting, and relatively speaking, so few warriors, you can recoup some of your losses of a successful campaign through obtaining bondsmen. Like salvage. Frankly it always surprised me that we didn't see as much scatter of bloodnamed individuals in the Clan FMs. More or less, you saw the list of that Clan's "exclusive" bloodnames, and those with few exception those were the names that repeatedly popped up as Galaxy/Cluster commanders in every Clan. I always felt like that was too stratified, it didn't reflect how many good warriors of bloodnames of other Clans must be serving there. And of all things, bondsmen turned warriors with the Kerensky bloodname, would in my mind be someone put on a pedestal, in any Clan. If only so you can point at Clan Wolf and do the Simpsons Ralph laugh.

Coming full circle to the point, no, I don't know of any specific Kerensky in the other Clans, but you have to consider all of the above. Plus the sentence that I pulled from WoR and pasted in the first post on this thread. Which would imply such warriors do exist.

[Hellraiser]

The WCSB and the FMs cover different time periods, so that wouldn't yield the result you seek.
....................
Which would imply such warriors do exist.

I know its not perfect, but I was just trying to see if we could put a name on a canon example, to take a little of the hypothetical out of the equation.

[Hellraiser]

So Assuming Star Commander BILL Kerensky, a mediocre aging testdown sentenced to garrison life back in the Homeworlds w/o chance to ever see the IS is captured by Reaving Survival Clan #3 in 3069 in a minor trial for resources.

Bill shows loyalty to his new clan & tests out again & then survives the Reevings.

So...

1.  Clan #3 has no right to his DNA for breeding.
2.  iLKhan soinso does have the right to grant him a new Bloodname (1) &/or Blood Heritage (2) for his amazing defense of his new clan's genetic repository when under attack by rabid-tainted clansmen a few years later.
3.  Option #1 grants a new Blood Name, which in theory is not Kerensky, we'll call it Billson.
4.  Option #2 would in theory create a 26th Kerensky Heritage which could be passed on to a single descendant of Bill.    (This isn't really the 26th since the others are abjured)  This option is covered in the "Right of Propagation", IIRC, in WoK sourcebook.


Question, could Option 1 create a new bloodname as a "3rd" Kerensky as mentioned previously ?
(I don't even know if that is allowed)
I ask because it is the only way I could see more than 1 Kerensky ever holding that name again.


So basically it would require an act of truly heroic proportions as mentioned by others.
It would also require an iLKhan willing to do some serious rule bending, not sure if that would happen in a post reeving world.  Then again post reeving might be the only place it ever would happen.