Plasma Rifles/Cannons

[Grey]

I can't find the rules, so can someone tell me if these weapons count as energy weapons when mounted on vehicles for heat purposes?

Also, what's a good supplimentary weapon for these things? I don't mean something that can cover range, do standard damage, I mean what works well together with plasma weapons?

[Moonsword]

They're treated as energy weapons for construction purposes, yes.

[Kit deSummersville]

On Combat and Support Vehicles, plasma weapons are treated as energy weapons, and so must incorporate any required heat sinks or power amplifiers needed to operate energy weapons of their size and heat potential.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

Also, what's a good supplimentary weapon for these things? I don't mean something that can cover range, do standard damage, I mean what works well together with plasma weapons?

For the IS Plasma Rifle:

- AC/10s and their kin. Low heat, same solid damage, similar ranges. I like the LB-10X more than the AC/10 and the Ultra-AC/10. It's more flexible and longer-ranged, and like the Plasma Rifle it's good against Vehicles.

- LRMs. Fairly low heat, long range, decent damage and a good spread between crit-seeking and armor shredding ability. MMLs are good too for the same reasons. They complement the Plasma Rifle well.

- SRMs. Critseekers with standard munitions, or another heat weapon with Inferno warheads. This applies to MMLs too.

- Additional Plasma Rifles. Putting all that extra heat on an enemy mech can really mess them up.

- PPCs. Similar reasons to the AC/10; they're hotter, but they are lighter too so you can add double-heatsinks to cope with that for the same weight.

- Medium Lasers. One of the most efficient weapons in the game.



For the Clan Plasma Cannon:

- Since it generates a bit less heat and is much lighter than the IS Plasma Rifle, you can combine Plasma Cannons with pretty much whatever you want. Since they don't damage mechs at all they are more like supplementary weapons on many designs, or carried in bulk on some infantry/vehicle hunter designs.

[VilleVicious]

If you are looking for a vehicle killer I would recommend LB-10Xs. Look at Moltke from TRO3085. Its bit light on the AC ammo, but it should pile in crits on other Vees like it was going out of style.

If you are looking for more MBT like tank with Plasma rifle as the main gun I would look at missiles to taste for your back up weapons, as not to spend extra tonnage on sinks.

On mechs( that enjoy access to DHS) energy weapons would be my choice of secondary weapons, propably from the PPC family, Snubnoses for brawlers and regulars for mid range fighters. A second Plasma rifle also works with a nice synergy.

[Sartris]

I don't see LB-x autocannons or SRMs as vehicle killers per se, but as vehicle brickers.  I had a pair of gauss variant Rommels get immobilized by SRM spam, but still made a significant contribution to the game as I was able to keep the enemy in their line of sight.   I don't find the vehicle crit table nearly as lethal as it used to be.

[JPArbiter]

If you are looking for more MBT like tank with Plasma rifle as the main gun I would look at missiles to taste for your back up weapons, as not to spend extra tonnage on sinks.

THIS. my friend and I made a wicked Manticore by swapping the PPC for a Plasma Rifle, and both Missile weapons with an MML 9, gave us enough weight for 2 or 3 tons of plasma ammunition.

[False Son]

I don't see LB-x autocannons or SRMs as vehicle killers per se, but as vehicle brickers.  I had a pair of gauss variant Rommels get immobilized by SRM spam, but still made a significant contribution to the game as I was able to keep the enemy in their line of sight.   I don't find the vehicle crit table nearly as lethal as it used to be.

I think that's sort of the idea.  When using the Vehicle Effectiveness Rules something like a tracked vehicle has a good chance of surviving the battle, provided it has a fair amount of armor.

To me, one of the fun parts of plasma weapons is the doubling of damage against woods and buildings, the non explosive ammo and anti infantry potential.

[markhall]

THIS. my friend and I made a wicked Manticore by swapping the PPC for a Plasma Rifle, and both Missile weapons with an MML 9, gave us enough weight for 2 or 3 tons of plasma ammunition.

That just seems mean.
Not a nice Tank to get ambushed by at all.

[JPArbiter]

That just seems mean.
Not a nice Tank to get ambushed by at all.

and if you care about field refit rules it is extremely easy to do.  the Manticore (Plasma) has become both of our merc units signatures, I have 8 he has 12.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I don't see LB-x autocannons or SRMs as vehicle killers per se, but as vehicle brickers.  I had a pair of gauss variant Rommels get immobilized by SRM spam, but still made a significant contribution to the game as I was able to keep the enemy in their line of sight.   I don't find the vehicle crit table nearly as lethal as it used to be.

Get into the side arc and SRMs and LB-Xs become even more horrible  - a roll of an 8 on the TW vehicle side hit chart is a TAC!

[Wanderer]

Dual-plasma 'Mechs are fugly things to deal with, even when your opponent has the heat sinks- dealing with 2d6 heat instability really does tend to crimp your opponent's return fire.

And they're one of those "main guns" I like to plug into tanks with fusion engines. They're really nice against softer targets, and a lance or so of plasma-firing tanks will crimp the firepower of anything the plasma just doesn't plain burn into. Plasma Manticores are an A+ use for the things.

[False Son]

Still, they aren't the end all be all weapon.  The range on a plasma rifle is fairly restrictive, and I cannot count the number of times i've rolled a 1 on the additional heat.  The BV is a tad high for something with it's range, but the payoff comes with all the additional effects, like bonus damage to inf and vees.

Sadly, there are a few plasma rifle designs that also have stealth, which is not a great combo IMO.  The idea of stealth is staying at range, and the plasma rifle is sort of a medium ranged weapon.

But, there are some really, really good uses of the weapon too.  I for one am a huge fan of the MC Marshal.

[Marwynn]

Well, one of the advantages Stealth gives you is the ability to survive to close to your 'Mech's effective range. Infighters rejoice and so forth.

Plasma Rifles do go great with missile backup, thinking of them as Large Lasers with more damage helps in that regard. It's a hole puncher with Flamer benefits, so you'd want crit-seeking weapons or a second hole puncher.

[IndyRI]

Still, they aren't the end all be all weapon.  The range on a plasma rifle is fairly restrictive, and I cannot count the number of times i've rolled a 1 on the additional heat.  The BV is a tad high for something with it's range, but the payoff comes with all the additional effects, like bonus damage to inf and vees.

They aren't the end-all be-all, but Plasma Rifles aren't quite medium range. They have enough range that with finesse they can be a standoff weapon against most mechs. Plinkers and LRM boats can keep some range on them, but on any sort of mobile mech the simple factors of only being able to back up at a walk will usually at least let the PR get into range without much trouble. And while the heat they add isn't considerable, it's enough to possibly give your opponent a -1 MP or a +1 TH, which can quickly swing things in their favor, especially against extremely heat-sensitive ASF units.

Sadly, there are a few plasma rifle designs that also have stealth, which is not a great combo IMO.  The idea of stealth is staying at range, and the plasma rifle is sort of a medium ranged weapon.

Some people have argued, like the post above, that Stealth is useful for getting your close range units into optimum range. While this is true, it's of fairly small utility for a system that is so expensive and generates so much heat when in use. I do prefer to stand at range with Stealth units and take full advantage of that modifier. As such, the Plasma Rifle is unfortunately a less than optimal weapon for these stand-off tactics. Poor design choice IMHO.

But, there are some really, really good uses of the weapon too.  I for one am a huge fan of the MC Marshal.

Agreed. That varient seems to fly under the radar since the base model is relatively unknown or uncared for by most players. All the same though, it's an extremely potent mech, especially when used against combined-arms formations.

[False Son]

They aren't the end-all be-all, but Plasma Rifles aren't quite medium range. They have enough range that with finesse they can be a standoff weapon against most mechs. Plinkers and LRM boats can keep some range on them, but on any sort of mobile mech the simple factors of only being able to back up at a walk will usually at least let the PR get into range without much trouble. And while the heat they add isn't considerable, it's enough to possibly give your opponent a -1 MP or a +1 TH, which can quickly swing things in their favor, especially against extremely heat-sensitive ASF units.

I can't speak for everyone.  I just consider the 5/10/15 range bracket to be medium ranged as it falls between the 7/14/21 long range bracket and the 3/6/9 bracket of say, SRMs.  I'm not saying it's bad, but like a number of weapon platforms (LGR springs to mind) the advantages are there, but not always overwhelmingly obvious to everyone.

Some people have argued, like the post above, that Stealth is useful for getting your close range units into optimum range. While this is true, it's of fairly small utility for a system that is so expensive and generates so much heat when in use. I do prefer to stand at range with Stealth units and take full advantage of that modifier. As such, the Plasma Rifle is unfortunately a less than optimal weapon for these stand-off tactics. Poor design choice IMHO.

Well, to be fair, stealth armor does do more than just make for good campers.  Infighting with stealth means that if you play your positioning correctly it's going to be just you and your target, other enemy units are going to suffer to hit penalties.  So in that regard stealth can be fun when you are 3 hexes from your target and everyone else is further away.  Plus, there's that whole no secondary targets thing which helps sometimes.  The BV increases for both a plasma rifle and stealth armor is a bit steep sometimes, so not a natural choice, at least to me when it comes to designing.

Agreed. That varient seems to fly under the radar since the base model is relatively unknown or uncared for by most players. All the same though, it's an extremely potent mech, especially when used against combined-arms formations.

Can't blame anyone for being unfamiliar.  Most versions of the Marshal are just boring.  The MC has a light engine, plasma rifle (3 tons of ammo) MML9 and a light PPC.  That's a pretty signifigant technological jump from it's other variants.  Super sweet mech though, really something the Magistry needed.

[IndyRI]

Well, to be fair, stealth armor does do more than just make for good campers.  Infighting with stealth means that if you play your positioning correctly it's going to be just you and your target, other enemy units are going to suffer to hit penalties.  So in that regard stealth can be fun when you are 3 hexes from your target and everyone else is further away.  Plus, there's that whole no secondary targets thing which helps sometimes.  The BV increases for both a plasma rifle and stealth armor is a bit steep sometimes, so not a natural choice, at least to me when it comes to designing.

Well it's certainly usable for getting into range, but the amount of heat and the cost in crits, BV, and C-Bills all tend to push you away from that use. It's certainly workable and even useful, but as you said, not a natural choice.

[Jackmc]

Dual-plasma 'Mechs are fugly things to deal with, even when your opponent has the heat sinks- dealing with 2d6 heat instability really does tend to crimp your opponent's return fire.

If it does, they are breaking the rules to the detriment of your plasma weapons.  All fire is simultaneous and must be declared before any fire is resolved.

-Jackmc

[Kit deSummersville]

If it does, they are breaking the rules to the detriment of your plasma weapons.  All fire is simultaneous and must be declared before any fire is resolved.

-Jackmc

Well, they also need to weigh the threat of plasma fire, so they may decide to fire less just from the threat alone.

[Moonsword]

Well, they also need to weigh the threat of plasma fire, so they may decide to fire less just from the threat alone.

Bingo.  They've got to deal with the potential impact of the heat spike and decide whether to run the risks.  There are certain designs that can shrug that off (SL-17R Shilones laugh themselves silly about it, for example, running at -5 on a forward alpha after hitting the heat cap, while Hellstars can simply drop an ER PPC out of the firing pattern).  Others can't.

[Jackmc]

Well, they also need to weigh the threat of plasma fire, so they may decide to fire less just from the threat alone.

True, and that tendancy to curtail weapons fire on many designs is one of the benefits of plasma weapons.  That's why it's so important to make sure that the opponent does declare all fire simulatneously, it forces them to make that decision and usually ends up constraining their fire.

-Jackmc

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

Hell, even if they do "cheat" and decide not to fire some guns because they have been tagged with a Plasma weapon, that is still a win in my book, for they are slinging less ordnance down range towards me.

[IndyRI]

Hell, even if they do "cheat" and decide not to fire some guns because they have been tagged with a Plasma weapon, that is still a win in my book, for they are slinging less ordnance down range towards me.

Well it should never happen, but exactly. The beauty of heat isn't in forcing your opponent to lose that extra MP or gain that +1 TH. It's the threat of those penalties that gain you the real benefit. A lot of mechs aren't designed to be able to drop a single small weapon to come back down from a 6 heat spike. As a result, they either have to drop multiple weapons from their firing order, or one big weapon that more than makes up the difference. Either way, you've effectively reduced your opponents effective firepower outright.

[Wanderer]

If it does, they are breaking the rules to the detriment of your plasma weapons.  All fire is simultaneous and must be declared before any fire is resolved.

-Jackmc

That's the point.

You know something with paired plasma rifles is likely coming your way.

Do you risk pushing the heat envelope and getting slapped with potentially enough overheat to cause targeting problems, movement penalties and maybe even a shutdown roll- or do you throttle back and play it safe?

I've had people cut an ER PPC/ER LL out of their normal firing pattern just to avoid cooking their 'Mech, knowing I was going to likely splash it with a bunch of plasma. Sometimes it was a good idea, as I'd hit with both plasmas and throw enough heat to have temporarily crippled them if they hadn't throttled back. Sometimes I'd whiff. The fact remained that I took less return fire simply because my opponent knew what I was capable of doing, even if it didn't happen.

Then there were people who didn't even think about it, push their heat sinks, and the plasma fire shoved them over the edge- and they had to throttle back the next turn to cool down anyway while I took advantage of the slower, less accurate results.

It's a lot like playing with liberal amounts of Inferno-loadable SRM launchers. Does your opponent pick to push things and hope you don't hit, or hold back to deal with the potential effects of a wave of napalm? For that matter, are you just loading normal HE ammo that round instead?

[False Son]

Well yeah, that's the whole point.  10 damage plus some heat.  Even if they can shrug off the heat you still get 10 damage.  In the case of the plasma canon it's the idea that a single 3 ton weapon with twice the reach of an inferno loaded SRM launcher has the potential to inflict 12 heat.  It rarely happens, but the average being 7 is enough to make a clanner worry about a lost MP or negative to-hit modifier.

The only thing that sucks about this whole discussion is my previous encounters with CJF BA.  Not knowing just how little damage plasma based weapon does to Afreets and Fire Ironholds has left me scratching my head.  "Thought I had anti-BA checked off my list with an Epona E... guess not"

[IndyRI]

Well it's definitely a good weapon against combined arms, but the standard for clan BA seems to be heading towards the fire-proof end of the scale. This makes Plasma Cannons great against vehicles, infantry, and ASFs, and quite effective against mechs, but oftentimes modern clan BA points will shake it off.

[False Son]

Well it's definitely a good weapon against combined arms, but the standard for clan BA seems to be heading towards the fire-proof end of the scale. This makes Plasma Cannons great against vehicles, infantry, and ASFs, and quite effective against mechs, but oftentimes modern clan BA points will shake it off.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't fire resistant armor a CJF phenomenon?  At least in the 3070s and 80s

[majesticmoose]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't fire resistant armor a CJF phenomenon?  At least in the 3070s and 80s

Weren't Salamandrs non-CJF

[False Son]

Oh yeah, forgot about those.  Maybe on purpose.

[IndyRI]

It's more a Clan phenomenon than a CJF one, though they are the priamry users. And it's becoming increasingly common to at least develop fire-resistsant varients for standard BA chasis.