Mars Rising: Marian Hegemony IV

[jimdigris]

It couldn't hurt.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Marians don't marry and inherit.

Marians conquer for the glory of Nova Roma.

OOC the Hegemony is artificially constricted to serve as "that annoying little nation to antagonize the neo-FWL or MoC" when the writers need a convenient plot device for those two nations to score wins.

Else why they keep sticking to unnatural status quos? 5 Legions and Cohors Morituri from 3085-3150 when every neighbour has expanded their military. Never take Kendall or expand in the direction of Balthazar III and Son Hoa when those planets are not part of any Successor States.

Instead, just forever make the Dark Age Marians pirates who sack for little short-term gain when a natural progression would've let us add a Legio VII and VIII by 3150.

[Adacas]

Marians don't marry and inherit.

Marians conquer for the glory of Nova Roma.

OOC the Hegemony is artificially constricted to serve as "that annoying little nation to antagonize the neo-FWL or MoC" when the writers need a convenient plot device for those two nations to score wins.

Else why they keep sticking to unnatural status quos? 5 Legions and Cohors Morituri from 3085-3150 when every neighbour has expanded their military. Never take Kendall or expand in the direction of Balthazar III and Son Hoa when those planets are not part of any Successor States.

Instead, just forever make the Dark Age Marians pirates who sack for little short-term gain when a natural progression would've let us add a Legio VII and VIII by 3150.

Do you know what that is called? decision of the writer, a Cesar who in 3145 was fearful and who was entrenched passes in a year to the offensive, make a legio more that refused to do until 3145 (or at least those who said the authors of that time)
But of course they will leave with the theme of Bipolarity or "mental instability" to justify anything, surely in the next they say that they return to the phase of fear and give away the Hegemony in a garage sale

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The neo-FWL being a creator's pet notwithstanding, the writing quality and more importantly, consistency, of AAA-products like this long-awaited book has to improve.

Reading about the Hegemony sounds like some armchair general planned the factions' actions and movements in the rimward-antispinward Inner Sphere according to wishful thinking without actually giving all the factions equal realistic progression.

At least this mess isn't as big as the inconsistency behind the Federated Suns, but that's for another thread.

[jimdigris]

Marians don't marry and inherit.

Marians conquer for the glory of Nova Roma.

OOC the Hegemony is artificially constricted to serve as "that annoying little nation to antagonize the neo-FWL or MoC" when the writers need a convenient plot device for those two nations to score wins.

Else why they keep sticking to unnatural status quos? 5 Legions and Cohors Morituri from 3085-3150 when every neighbour has expanded their military. Never take Kendall or expand in the direction of Balthazar III and Son Hoa when those planets are not part of any Successor States.

Instead, just forever make the Dark Age Marians pirates who sack for little short-term gain when a natural progression would've let us add a Legio VII and VIII by 3150.

Look at it this way: The Marians won't need large numbers of jumpships to keep his troops supplied because the front is so close.  Rommel spent as much time retreating in North Africa as he did advancing because of the limits of his supply chain.

[Adacas]

Where is the estimated or total number of Jumpship of the Hegemony supposed to be? Because I have not seen it anywhere, and if you tell me why I do not have a shipyard, I remind the one who searches for the number of jumpships of the Hegemony, that no peripheral state had a shipyard of JumpShips until not long ago, everyone bought outside to stock up or captured in acts of war

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Look at it this way: The Marians won't need large numbers of jumpships to keep his troops supplied because the front is so close.  Rommel spent as much time retreating in North Africa as he did advancing because of the limits of his supply chain.

Why fight such a pointless war in the first place? Gibraltar is a useless target. The writer merely wanted an excuse for the Hegemony to provoke a major FWL province. Kendall isn't part of a province, but it has critical war factories. The best move for the Marians is to seize Kendall and dig in without provoking a major FWL province, while allied with the Regulans. The FWL will be too preoccupied with the bigger fish and take a longer time to respond. But no. The FWL has to lose something worthless so it has an excuse to mop the floor with a minor state and have its military look good.

This is not Terran global warfare. Interstellar warfare costs a lot in terms of supply lines. It is farther and harder to resupply your troops at Gibraltar compared to Kendall and JumpShips are in short supply, valuable cargo space has to be prioritized for the Marians who are limited in resources. Like Rommel, the Marians will be facing major problems resupplying due to the neo-FWL's aerospace supremacy. However close the front is, there will be no resupplying when the neo-FWL has Sea Fox lapdogs and their superior fleets blockading and interdicting whatever they like. Regulans had Merlin R1s and Picaroons, they were swatted away. Marians have nothing resembling an adequate fleet. Unless they ally with the ilClan, the neo-FWL will conquer the Hegemony because of a contrived excuse.

[jimdigris]

Where is the estimated or total number of Jumpship of the Hegemony supposed to be? Because I have not seen it anywhere, and if you tell me why I do not have a shipyard, I remind the one who searches for the number of jumpships of the Hegemony, that no peripheral state had a shipyard of JumpShips until not long ago, everyone bought outside to stock up or captured in acts of war

The writers were careful not to publish that information after the fans started nitpicking.

[Minemech]

 Wasn't Gibraltar briefly a capital world? There might be more there than we know.

[Deadborder]

The writers obviously hate (my faction) because (my faction) suffered some sort of setback and thus it's an attempt to ruin (my faction).

(my faction) should have done what I think they should do, not what the writers did. I know this because I know (my faction) better then the writers do. (my faction) are My People.

[Saint]

I think it is more that FM: 3145 has the Marains as a
" skilled military with a majority of its officers possessing
significant combat experience. Even the loss of the V Legio to the Lothian League has set
back the Hegemony legions only slightly. In many ways, this makes the Marian Hegemony
Armed Forces one of the most battle-hardened militaries in the Periphery (though certainly
not the largest). " to Shattered Fortress portraying them as getting crushed at almost every turn.

I personally can't wait for the next book to see what happens, but as a player that has lost three factions over the years a part of me worries. ;D
 

[Adacas]

I think it is more that FM: 3145 has the Marains as a
" skilled military with a majority of its officers possessing
significant combat experience. Even the loss of the V Legio to the Lothian League has set
back the Hegemony legions only slightly. In many ways, this makes the Marian Hegemony
Armed Forces one of the most battle-hardened militaries in the Periphery (though certainly
not the largest). " to Shattered Fortress portraying them as getting crushed at almost every turn.

I personally can't wait for the next book to see what happens, but as a player that has lost three factions over the years a part of me worries. ;D

You are not the only one who is worried my friend, but good hope that the economic threats and the economic strangulation of the League make the troops of Tamarindo return where they came although of course a series of raids by Lira, pirates or the Empire of Wolf can help in the same way

[Minemech]

I think it is more that FM: 3145 has the Marains as a
" skilled military with a majority of its officers possessing
significant combat experience. Even the loss of the V Legio to the Lothian League has set
back the Hegemony legions only slightly. In many ways, this makes the Marian Hegemony
Armed Forces one of the most battle-hardened militaries in the Periphery (though certainly
not the largest). " to Shattered Fortress portraying them as getting crushed at almost every turn.

I personally can't wait for the next book to see what happens, but as a player that has lost three factions over the years a part of me worries. ;D

I still mourn my precious Circinus Federation (You will not hear those last three words together often).

 I do not know how to feel about what happened to my favorite Deep Periphery state, in some ways it is more interesting. Thumbs up to TPTB on that choice.  :thumbsup:  :beer:

[truetanker]

Well at least we won't be attending any more Hazings!

TT

[Minemech]

 Free Worlds League formations are full of experienced troops who are used to fighting other powers to win. I will not speak for the Magistracy.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Wasn't Gibraltar briefly a capital world? There might be more there than we know.

From pg.38:

The loss of Gibraltar dealt a severe blow to Tamarind-Abbey's morale. The system was not a true military stronghold, and it possessed neither industrial nor economic significance, but retained sentimental value among the Tamarind-Abbey people.

So a useless target contrived to get the Hegemony into a war with a Successor State province.

It has been established long ago that Periphery states do not waste their precious regular military on wars with long odds. Compare the Hegemony with a Successor State. In FM3145, the Marians preferred to keep their Legions raiding to hone their skills. Now this ::)

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The writers obviously hate (my faction) because (my faction) suffered some sort of setback and thus it's an attempt to ruin (my faction).

(my faction) should have done what I think they should do, not what the writers did. I know this because I know (my faction) better then the writers do. (my faction) are My People.

When you have nothing better to back up your argument than this, it's just sad

[Deadborder]

The writer merely wanted an excuse for the Hegemony to provoke a major FWL province. Kendall isn't part of a province, but it has critical war factories... But no. The FWL has to lose something worthless so it has an excuse to mop the floor with a minor state and have its military look good.

Unless they ally with the ilClan, the neo-FWL will conquer the Hegemony because of a contrived excuse.

OOC the Hegemony is artificially constricted to serve as "that annoying little nation to antagonize the neo-FWL or MoC" when the writers need a convenient plot device for those two nations to score wins.

TL; DR This book continues the quest to portray the neo-FWL as suffering fake disasters against enemies scripted to make idiotic decisions, to make its eventual triumphs more dramatic.

So more or less exactly what I said. No attempt to look at the logic of a situation or consider why. Likewise, there's no acceptance that yes, sometimes a faction does suffer losses and setbacks. Similarly, campaigns can be waged for the wrong reasons or have the wrong targets. This is realistic. This happens. Instead, it comes across as lashing out at the authors because something you don't like happened to your favourite faction.

And then there's the ongoing use of "us" and "we" to refer to the Marain Hegemony. Being a player or fan of that faction does not make you a part of that faction. It does not give you any special insight as to the thinking powering it, or the logic behind its decisions from an in-world perspective. As a player, you have a far greater knowledge then the in-world individuals who make the decisions.

[Kit deSummersville]

It has been established long ago that Periphery states do not waste their precious regular military on wars with long odds.

You must be thinking of another game that didn't have the Taurians, the Canopians, the Circinians and the Rim Worlds Republic.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

So more or less exactly what I said. No attempt to look at the logic of a situation or consider why. Likewise, there's no acceptance that yes, sometimes a faction does suffer losses and setbacks. Similarly, campaigns can be waged for the wrong reasons or have the wrong targets. This is realistic. This happens. Instead, it comes across as lashing out at the authors because something you don't like happened to your favourite faction.

And then there's the ongoing use of "us" and "we" to refer to the Marain Hegemony. Being a player or fan of that faction does not make you a part of that faction. It does not give you any special insight as to the thinking powering it, or the logic behind its decisions from an in-world perspective. As a player, you have a far greater knowledge then the in-world individuals who make the decisions.

I would accept the losses and setbacks if they are realistically portrayed. For example, the Lyrans in the same book. They could hold on to Coventry because they were up against only one overextended Clan.

Then there's your specific highlighting of parts of my posts while dropping the others. I also said they gave us plenty of details on the FWL side of the conflict and their leadership, but it seems the Marians are limited to the III Legio Prefect with nothing from the Caesar.

Being players and seeing more than the characters aside, would experienced military strategists and tacticians really go after Gibraltar over something better? You go on and on about I'm on the outside looking in, but have you actually compared the Marians as portrayed in FM3145 and the Marians in Shattered Fortress? Also, in real world or BT, war factories are preferred targets. The Kuritas made the most of their limited forces by specifically targeting Quentin and Marduk in the pre-3050 period and have been reaping the benefits ever since. The Blakists seized every such world or nuked those they couldn't hold. That's realistic. Going for Gibraltar is not.

You must be thinking of another game that didn't have the Taurians, the Canopians, the Circinians and the Rim Worlds Republic.

I should be more specific then. Post-1st SW Periphery states who are alone don't waste their precious militaries. The Taurians, Canopians, and Circinians all had Successor State allies. The size of the Rim Worlds Republic military speaks for itself.

[Kit deSummersville]

I should be more specific then. Post-1st SW Periphery states who are alone don't waste their precious militaries. The Taurians, Canopians, and Circinians all had Successor State allies. The size of the Rim Worlds Republic military speaks for itself.

The Taurians didn't have anyone to help them when they tussled it up with the Feddies and Hanson's Roughriders. The Canopians had the breakaway Andurians as allies, which I wouldn't count as anything close to the Successor States. The Marians started on some conquest their fans have called for for nigh on a decade and that sort of thing gets responses.

[Minemech]

 The Magistracy was acting as a rational actor, just as the Duchy was, in that war. I can fully justify the invasion of the Capellan Confederation at that time, from their perspective. They had a rare chance at a power grab and they took it. There is no such thing as the "More harmed principle." It is simply something meant to make people sleep better at night.

[Kit deSummersville]

They had a rare chance at a power grab and they took it.

Exactly.

[Baldur Mekorig]

Anyone knows when Saint Nicolas and Lahti join the Hegemony? The 3145 map present them as independant, but the Tamarind counter-attack got them, with a battalion of the Dragonslayers in St Nicolas and a the Headhunters in Lahti.

I presume its between 3148 (the Aquilla fluff have a unknow raiding party going for Landfall from Lahti) and 3150 (when the Tamarinds attack).

[Colt Ward]

IIRC, they were considered nominally independent but a client or cultural dependency of the Hegemony.

[Baldur Mekorig]

IIRC, they were considered nominally independent but a client or cultural dependency of the Hegemony.

I am aware of that, but Shattered Fortress present them like beign part of the Hegemony.

Also, another spicy point to discuss: Are the Camacho´s Caballeros the new merc Mary Sues? Yes? No? Maybe?

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure FM3145 they got punched pretty hard by the Wolves.

Well if your Fontaine and are wanting to stomp a mudhole in the Marian's influence what better way to do it than take worlds they consider in their sphere of influence even if they are not formally Marian . . . and make them rejoin the League.  To justify it the Parliament he would have to claim they were Marian- and really if he says it long enough, it would be taken as fact, especially throwing in the whole 'never look a gift horse in the mouth' thing.

[Deadborder]

I would accept the losses and setbacks if they are realistically portrayed. For example, the Lyrans in the same book. They could hold on to Coventry because they were up against only one overextended Clan.

Then there's your specific highlighting of parts of my posts while dropping the others. I also said they gave us plenty of details on the FWL side of the conflict and their leadership, but it seems the Marians are limited to the III Legio Prefect with nothing from the Caesar.

Being players and seeing more than the characters aside, would experienced military strategists and tacticians really go after Gibraltar over something better? You go on and on about I'm on the outside looking in, but have you actually compared the Marians as portrayed in FM3145 and the Marians in Shattered Fortress? Also, in real world or BT, war factories are preferred targets. The Kuritas made the most of their limited forces by specifically targeting Quentin and Marduk in the pre-3050 period and have been reaping the benefits ever since. The Blakists seized every such world or nuked those they couldn't hold. That's realistic. Going for Gibraltar is not.

Shattetred Fortress gives us plenty of information of information from the FWL's perspective because that's what the in-universe authors had access to. They might not have had the same degree of access to the Marians to figure out their tacical and strategic thinking, their reasoniong and their choice of targets. They might not actually know what was going on inside the Hegemony to the degree that they would like. There's plenty of good reasons why there's a lot of information from one side, and next to none from the others.

I've looked at FM:3145 and see nothing at all in there about the MHAF that precludes the events of Shattered Fortress. If there's an issue there, you're going to have to be a lot more specific.

Yes, the Marians went after Gibraltar and not Kendall. There could be good reasons for that, but as yet, as players, we are not privy to them. They could still be a part of some greater story that's yet to be fully told. The first thing that comes to mind would be to look at what happened the last time the Marians went after Kendall at the end of the Jihad, which resulted in a complete disaster. They could have delibarately avoided the world for just that reason.

We can speculate on the how's and whys of the situation, but exploding into globs of fanboyish rage and claiming that the authors are ruining the Marian Hegemony for the sake of propping up another factions, with similar accusations of favouritisim is not a useful answer, nor is it supportive of any form of intelligent discourse.

Ultimately, the Marians made mistakes and suffered losses. This happens. This is a part of the Battletech universe, something that has been a part of the fiction since day one. Your faction suffering a loss is not becasue the writers hate it or decided to ruin it for the sake of it.

Now if you want to speculate as to why things happened from an in-universe reason, then that's great. Screaming and crying because bad stuff happened to your favourite faction isn't.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

The Taurians didn't have anyone to help them when they tussled it up with the Feddies and Hanson's Roughriders. The Canopians had the breakaway Andurians as allies, which I wouldn't count as anything close to the Successor States. The Marians started on some conquest their fans have called for for nigh on a decade and that sort of thing gets responses.

The Taurians had the Blakists secretly helping them as well as Trinity Alliance output.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Shattetred Fortress gives us plenty of information of information from the FWL's perspective because that's what the in-universe authors had access to. They might not have had the same degree of access to the Marians to figure out their tacical and strategic thinking, their reasoniong and their choice of targets. They might not actually know what was going on inside the Hegemony to the degree that they would like. There's plenty of good reasons why there's a lot of information from one side, and next to none from the others.

I've looked at FM:3145 and see nothing at all in there about the MHAF that precludes the events of Shattered Fortress. If there's an issue there, you're going to have to be a lot more specific.

Yes, the Marians went after Gibraltar and not Kendall. There could be good reasons for that, but as yet, as players, we are not privy to them. They could still be a part of some greater story that's yet to be fully told. The first thing that comes to mind would be to look at what happened the last time the Marians went after Kendall at the end of the Jihad, which resulted in a complete disaster. They could have delibarately avoided the world for just that reason.

We can speculate on the how's and whys of the situation, but exploding into globs of fanboyish rage and claiming that the authors are ruining the Marian Hegemony for the sake of propping up another factions, with similar accusations of favouritisim is not a useful answer, nor is it supportive of any form of intelligent discourse.

Ultimately, the Marians made mistakes and suffered losses. This happens. This is a part of the Battletech universe, something that has been a part of the fiction since day one. Your faction suffering a loss is not becasue the writers hate it or decided to ruin it for the sake of it.

Now if you want to speculate as to why things happened from an in-universe reason, then that's great. Screaming and crying because bad stuff happened to your favourite faction isn't.

For those good reasons, there are also worse reasons to balance them out. This is not the first time information discrepancy has happened. There is an emphasis on the alliance between the Federated Suns and the Republic, but somehow FM3145 goes into far more detail in the Capellan and Lyran factions than the one for the Suns. The in-universe authors are from the Republic, and the Capellans were supposed to have had decades of secrecy and misinformation on their massive build-up and output, but the Capellans get a breakdown by commonality (Lyrans too, by province), but the "allied" Davions somehow get two paragraphs lumped under "Material Readiness" instead of by march.

As others have pointed out in previous posts, the MHAF in FM3145 had a lot of E/V rated cohorts/units and adopted a defensive posture, preferring cultural assimilation of minor neighbours and only raiding major ones to avoid provoking the sort of response seen in Shattered Fortress. Their opponents in the 1st, 7th and 8th Tamarind Regulars were R/V/R rated in experience.

FM3145, pg. 185:

Still, Caesar Ignatius has refrained from territorial expansion and has instead concentrated on intense raiding across the long Periphery border with the Free Worlds League and deep into the Magistracy of Canopus - activities that seem aimed more at projecting and honing the MHAF's strength.

You see nothing at all?

So they got nuked the last time they went after Kendall. That's routine in BT, especially in the Jihad and Succession Wars. This was a lone world with no membership in any major province. The Legios have no problem coming a second time and capturing the world.

Now, if you want to back your statements of intelligent discourse with factual evidence instead of selectively ignoring and giving ambiguous sweeping statements, you're welcome to. But it's been several long posts and all you do is label people as screaming and crying and engaging in fanboyism when I back my points up with relevant quotes from the source material. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that, Mr Deadborder.