Author Topic: Holographic training field rules?  (Read 1537 times)

Charistoph

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Holographic training field rules?
« on: 28 April 2024, 22:59:12 »
Okay, I have a scenario coming up in a few months in which the players will be Clanners who come across an active training field like what was using in the Battletech Cartoon.

I have my own ideas on how to run this idea, but obviously it would be easier if someone did more of the work first.

Does anyone have a source for something like this I can review and work from?  Or do I just go with what I am planning?

My two biggest concerns at present is how the training targets take damage and is subsequently considered removed, AND how difficult it would be for the players to detect if a target is a training target or not.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
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They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #1 on: 29 April 2024, 18:40:12 »
Very interesting concept!

Any light-based system should be able to detect weapons fire passing near or through it's area of effect (or projection in this case). So tracking damage and making the model react to other effects such as terrain should be a cinch.

I'd say telling the difference with a fully-functional training field would be very difficult. They would look and sound real. An active probe would do it, easily, as would something like the OstScout/OstSol's TRSS system, Dalban Micronics or DKL phased-array sensors. Other systems would face severe difficulty.

What rules are you playing under?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2024, 23:59:51 »
This will be Classic/Total Warfare ruleset.

Optional Special Rules in force:
 * Sprinting (TacOps, pg 16),
 * Evading Movement (TacOps, pg 16),
 * Shielding Movement (TacOps, pg 17),
 * Hull Down (TacOps, pg 19),
 * Climbing (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Leaping, (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Backwards Elevation Changes (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Careful Stand (TacOps, pg 22),
 * Floating Critials (TacOps, pg 75),
 * One Arm Prone Firing (TacOps, pg 83),
 * Hidden Units (TacOps, pg 97),
 * Advanced Probe (TacOps, pg 97),
 * Rapid Fire Autocannons (TacOps, pg 98),
 * ECCM (TacOps, pg 98),
 * Sensor Ghost (TacOps, pg 100),
 * Rapid Fire Machine Guns (TacOps, pg 100),
 * Enhanced Flamers (Damage & Heat, BMM, pg 99),
 * Design Quirks (BMM pg 82-95 & Campaign Ops pg 225-235),
 * Special Abilities (Campaign Ops)



Part of what I was thinking is that because this is a Star League set up, that it would influence even Active Probes and such, causing the 'Mechs' computers to register them properly.

I received a DM that pointed me to Fall of Terra.  In those cases, a close enough Active Probe, standing next to them, or heck, even HITTING them would cause them to be registered as holographic.  They couldn't do anything but Stand Up, Go Prone, or Turn, not even Walk!  I don't know how good that will work.

Story-wise, in this situation, it allowed a unit to get enough breathing room to escape for a time, and no, I'm not talking about the Somerset Strikers.  Maybe I should make it a PSR with a modifier for them to verify?  And register hits as if they happened?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #3 on: 30 April 2024, 08:20:36 »
This will be Classic/Total Warfare ruleset.

Optional Special Rules in force:
 * Sprinting (TacOps, pg 16),
 * Evading Movement (TacOps, pg 16),
 * Shielding Movement (TacOps, pg 17),
 * Hull Down (TacOps, pg 19),
 * Climbing (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Leaping, (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Backwards Elevation Changes (TacOps, pg 20),
 * Careful Stand (TacOps, pg 22),
 * Floating Critials (TacOps, pg 75),
 * One Arm Prone Firing (TacOps, pg 83),
 * Hidden Units (TacOps, pg 97),
 * Advanced Probe (TacOps, pg 97),
 * Rapid Fire Autocannons (TacOps, pg 98),
 * ECCM (TacOps, pg 98),
 * Sensor Ghost (TacOps, pg 100),
 * Rapid Fire Machine Guns (TacOps, pg 100),
 * Enhanced Flamers (Damage & Heat, BMM, pg 99),
 * Design Quirks (BMM pg 82-95 & Campaign Ops pg 225-235),
 * Special Abilities (Campaign Ops)



Part of what I was thinking is that because this is a Star League set up, that it would influence even Active Probes and such, causing the 'Mechs' computers to register them properly.

I received a DM that pointed me to Fall of Terra.  In those cases, a close enough Active Probe, standing next to them, or heck, even HITTING them would cause them to be registered as holographic.  They couldn't do anything but Stand Up, Go Prone, or Turn, not even Walk!  I don't know how good that will work.

Story-wise, in this situation, it allowed a unit to get enough breathing room to escape for a time, and no, I'm not talking about the Somerset Strikers.  Maybe I should make it a PSR with a modifier for them to verify?  And register hits as if they happened?

Well, really two different scenarios to go with this; the intended training audience would have their sensors, including active probes programmed to read the holo-projections as real. Uninvited guests active probes would not. Fancy sensors might not be fool-able and the pilots would need to play along.

I'd say let your holo-projections do whatever a normal unit could do, except effective physical attacks. It's not hard-light afterall.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #4 on: 30 April 2024, 10:01:36 »
Well, really two different scenarios to go with this; the intended training audience would have their sensors, including active probes programmed to read the holo-projections as real. Uninvited guests active probes would not. Fancy sensors might not be fool-able and the pilots would need to play along.

I'd say let your holo-projections do whatever a normal unit could do, except effective physical attacks. It's not hard-light afterall.

What if there was a back-door override that had been kept in the programming for centuries and no one ever thought about addressing or cutting it out, or when they did it caused the system to fail?  I give them a little fluff about how their targeting systems seem to cycle unusually as they approach the field.

Before I got this information, I was going to treat them like the Beginner Box in a way.  Basically, any through-Armor hit would cause the hologram to disappear as a kill.  So wiping out the Armor normally or getting a TAC.

If anyone asks about it, I'd have them do a PSR to try and figure it out.  Maybe give them a bonus for the same conditions as The Fall of Terra's standard.

Part of the story was that the Clanners scored far higher than the Spheroid commander would like, which means they engaged them pretty effectively and thoroughly instead of focusing on their original prey.

Of course, they could have just considered it another challenge and ran with it, too.  Clanners be weird, after all.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #5 on: 30 April 2024, 21:53:08 »
What if there was a back-door override that had been kept in the programming for centuries and no one ever thought about addressing or cutting it out, or when they did it caused the system to fail?  I give them a little fluff about how their targeting systems seem to cycle unusually as they approach the field.

Before I got this information, I was going to treat them like the Beginner Box in a way.  Basically, any through-Armor hit would cause the hologram to disappear as a kill.  So wiping out the Armor normally or getting a TAC.

If anyone asks about it, I'd have them do a PSR to try and figure it out.  Maybe give them a bonus for the same conditions as The Fall of Terra's standard.

Part of the story was that the Clanners scored far higher than the Spheroid commander would like, which means they engaged them pretty effectively and thoroughly instead of focusing on their original prey.

Of course, they could have just considered it another challenge and ran with it, too.  Clanners be weird, after all.

As a player, I'd be totally down with that.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #6 on: 01 May 2024, 10:31:22 »
The hard part is tracking Damage from them.  Either they all "miss" for some reason, or I have to personally track where the Damage lands so they can "clear" it when they figure it out.

Of course, that only applies if the unit they are chasing shoots them at the same time.

If the ones they are chasing don't fire after the holograms are engaged, then it isn't really a problem (aside from maybe determining XP and Honor gains). 

But if they get in to position to be engaged by both...  That's what's driving me a little crazy in figuring out at this point.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #7 on: 01 May 2024, 20:18:21 »
The hard part is tracking Damage from them.  Either they all "miss" for some reason, or I have to personally track where the Damage lands so they can "clear" it when they figure it out.

Of course, that only applies if the unit they are chasing shoots them at the same time.

If the ones they are chasing don't fire after the holograms are engaged, then it isn't really a problem (aside from maybe determining XP and Honor gains). 

But if they get in to position to be engaged by both...  That's what's driving me a little crazy in figuring out at this point.

Aw, no way! That's easy mode!

You're already working with Holograms; that's next-door to lasers. If they can be projected, they can shoot and score hits.

If the system can tap into and "tether" to your mech's training computers, it will make them simulate damage.

That could be a clue; something is trying to "pair" with the players and NPCs mechs/tanks/fighters com systems as soon as they come in range for "safety purposes".
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #8 on: 01 May 2024, 21:05:00 »
Aw, no way! That's easy mode!

You're already working with Holograms; that's next-door to lasers. If they can be projected, they can shoot and score hits.

If the system can tap into and "tether" to your mech's training computers, it will make them simulate damage.

That could be a clue; something is trying to "pair" with the players and NPCs mechs/tanks/fighters com systems as soon as they come in range for "safety purposes".

I was planning on having their own 'Mech's systems tracking Damage and taking things off line appropriately when tracking Damage.

Another "clue" is when they take an Ammo Hit, but they just lose the Ammo Bin, but not get the Neuro-feedback.

Addendum: Another question will be if they can some how bypass the training protocols so they can identify which is hologram and which isn't without getting a proper sensor pass.  Part of me wants to say it requires a reboot, i.e. they voluntarily Shut Down, realign some boards, then Turn On, taking a full Turn.
« Last Edit: 03 May 2024, 11:43:16 by Charistoph »
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #9 on: 04 May 2024, 18:59:19 »
I was planning on having their own 'Mech's systems tracking Damage and taking things off line appropriately when tracking Damage.

Another "clue" is when they take an Ammo Hit, but they just lose the Ammo Bin, but not get the Neuro-feedback.

Addendum: Another question will be if they can some how bypass the training protocols so they can identify which is hologram and which isn't without getting a proper sensor pass.  Part of me wants to say it requires a reboot, i.e. they voluntarily Shut Down, realign some boards, then Turn On, taking a full Turn.

Well, yeah; there is that built-in training/diagnostic system 'mechs have, right?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2024, 09:39:36 »
Well, yeah; there is that built-in training/diagnostic system 'mechs have, right?

Exactly.  And since it will be an old SLDF one, it would take Active Probes in to account, right?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #11 on: 05 May 2024, 09:48:34 »
Exactly.  And since it will be an old SLDF one, it would take Active Probes in to account, right?

That's reasonable.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

idea weenie

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2024, 10:06:39 »
The hard part is tracking Damage from them.  Either they all "miss" for some reason, or I have to personally track where the Damage lands so they can "clear" it when they figure it out.

Of course, that only applies if the unit they are chasing shoots them at the same time.

If the ones they are chasing don't fire after the holograms are engaged, then it isn't really a problem (aside from maybe determining XP and Honor gains). 

But if they get in to position to be engaged by both...  That's what's driving me a little crazy in figuring out at this point.

Can you make a copy of their sheets before they engage the holographic decoys, adjusting ammo expenditure as needed?

Then after they clear the course you hand them back the copies and the troops keep going.

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2024, 17:31:00 »
Can you make a copy of their sheets before they engage the holographic decoys, adjusting ammo expenditure as needed?

Then after they clear the course you hand them back the copies and the troops keep going.

Not really, no.  It would also kind of defeat the purpose, in a kind of, "Why are you making copies?"
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

idea weenie

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #14 on: 05 May 2024, 18:47:41 »
Not really, no.  It would also kind of defeat the purpose, in a kind of, "Why are you making copies?"

"I'm testing out some house rules and want to be able to easily back out any damage done if the rules are too rough.  But if you want to keep the damage that happens . . ."

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #15 on: 05 May 2024, 22:38:32 »
Not really, no.  It would also kind of defeat the purpose, in a kind of, "Why are you making copies?"

You're running the game, but you don't have your own copies of their sheets?

What if someone comes to game and forgets them? You'd need to print them out again, right?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Charistoph

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #16 on: 06 May 2024, 00:27:05 »
You're running the game, but you don't have your own copies of their sheets?

What if someone comes to game and forgets them? You'd need to print them out again, right?

Their units, their sheets.  They have the known expectation of bringing their own.  They choose their Omnimech variants from what's available, or if they've earned it, an Omnimech variant they've created on their own.  It's a progressive type of campaign.  I create the scenario and set the OpFor, and the limitations on what is available.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

beachhead1985

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Re: Holographic training field rules?
« Reply #17 on: 06 May 2024, 14:05:24 »
Their units, their sheets.  They have the known expectation of bringing their own.  They choose their Omnimech variants from what's available, or if they've earned it, an Omnimech variant they've created on their own.  It's a progressive type of campaign.  I create the scenario and set the OpFor, and the limitations on what is available.

I don't see a way to do that part of it, then without spoiling the surprise.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

 

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