Author Topic: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?  (Read 42622 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #180 on: 29 March 2020, 06:23:38 »
To be clear, the odds of that happening, while non-zero, are sufficiently remote as to be reasonable.  Melee weapons have a penalty to hit at TW scale, and the cluster roll would have yield at least 25 hits to do one point of damage.  Every lower result means no damage.

In general, singularities (zeroes and infinities) should be avoided in game design.  That's the main complaint of this thread, I believe.  The Light Rifle Cannon was reduced to 0 damage, when lighter (namely, infantry) weapons can still do something (however infrequently).

And for those who don't follow the errata threads, my report about the -3 needing to be -1 was shot down with the reasoning that 0 damage for the LRC was the intent at the time, despite AToW and its Companion being newer rules.

the basic core of things, is that the ruling was made.  It may reverse over time, but for the time being, the ruling was made.
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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #181 on: 29 March 2020, 06:49:53 »
The tricky bit is that it violates the principle of new rules trumping old.

EDIT: And I should add it was shot down by a brown Battlemaster, not a red one...
« Last Edit: 29 March 2020, 06:51:32 by Daryk »

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #182 on: 29 March 2020, 13:45:41 »
To be clear, the odds of that happening, while non-zero, are sufficiently remote as to be reasonable.  Melee weapons have a penalty to hit at TW scale, and the cluster roll would have yield at least 25 hits to do one point of damage.  Every lower result means no damage.

In general, singularities (zeroes and infinities) should be avoided in game design.  That's the main complaint of this thread, I believe.  The Light Rifle Cannon was reduced to 0 damage, when lighter (namely, infantry) weapons can still do something (however infrequently).

And for those who don't follow the errata threads, my report about the -3 needing to be -1 was shot down with the reasoning that 0 damage for the LRC was the intent at the time, despite AToW and its Companion being newer rules.


I don't recall Infantry having a penalty to hit with melee weapons but I probably missed that. What page is it on? I do know you don't roll on the cluster hit chart. The whole unit hits. So a Platoon of 30 knife wielder would do .6 damage (.02x30). Why a knife does more damage than a bow or cross bow I don't know but that's what TM says.

I do disagree that a vehicle weapon does 0 damage compared to nearly every infantry weapon. It should do something. It's also why I wondered if Battle Armor weapons might be a better equivalent for some of the WWII weapons. The damage can stay the same with reduced range or the damage gets reduced along with the range. Either way there's still some damage.

It's a bummer about it being shot down in the errata thread. Maybe some day though. Other things have changed but took a while.

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #183 on: 29 March 2020, 13:58:24 »
Page 148... Point Blank Weapons are +1 to hit (that's a penalty).  It's what that "(P)" in the table means.

And looking in TW (pages 214-215), I don't see an exception from the cluster hit procedure for Point Blank weapons.

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #184 on: 29 March 2020, 14:35:54 »
Found it. Thanks. :)  :thumbsup:  I totally forgot that.  :-[ I hate not getting to play for a while so I forget things.  :'(

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #185 on: 29 March 2020, 16:29:09 »
No problem!  The ruleset is large enough we're all bound to forget parts of it now and then...

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #186 on: 29 March 2020, 22:43:29 »
No problem!  The ruleset is large enough we're all bound to forget parts of it now and then...

So true. :)  :beer:

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #187 on: 01 April 2020, 02:06:46 »
I was going to post something else when I had a "Wait. What?" moment.  :(

Rheinmetall Rh-120 is equivalent to a LAC/2 but it does 12 points of damage against WWII units. I figured the 120mm cannon would be a Heavy Rifle. That it being equal to a LAC/2 makes sense I guess. The HRC and the LAC/2 both have the same range and if we round up they weigh the same. They'd also both have roughly the same amount of ammo per ton. That'd make it 50% lighter than the HRC with a lot more ammo. No problem. But how's it go from 12 points of damage to 2?    :-\   I have no idea how that works or what it  means for other Tank Cannons or Rifle Cannons.

If the Rheinmetall Rh-120 were equivalent to a HRC, the -3 point reduction would mean that Rifle Cannons have already had their damages reduced. It'd also mean Tank cannons weapons also just apply the -3 point reduction. Right?

The 120mm going from 12 points to 9. (HRC)
The 8.8cm going from 9 points to 6. (MRC)
The 76.2mm going from 8 points to 5.
The 75mm going from 7 points  to 4.
The 57mm going from 6 points  to 3. (LRC)
The 47mm going from 5 points  to 2.
The 45mm going from 4 points  to 1.
The 40mm going from 4 points  to 1.
The 37mm  going from 4 points  to 1.


If the ranges shrink at the same rate the 37mm would have a range of 6. The same as a Light Machine Gun or the Medium Recoilless Rifle it is equivalent to. Same damage too.

Now I can totally see people saying that the 120mm Tank Cannon would totally outclass ACs. 9 points of damage for only 4 tons with 40 rounds per ton? Who'd even use an AC/5? The HRC though weighs 8 tons and only has 6 rounds per ton. Yes still 9 points of damage compared to 5 but overall the HRC will do 54 points of damage compared to 100 for the AC/5. So the HRC will do if it has to but the AC/5 is the better weapon overall.








Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #188 on: 01 April 2020, 02:16:09 »
I was going to post something else when I had a "Wait. What?" moment.  :(

Rheinmetall Rh-120 is equivalent to a LAC/2 but it does 12 points of damage against WWII units. I figured the 120mm cannon would be a Heavy Rifle. That it being equal to a LAC/2 makes sense I guess. The HRC and the LAC/2 both have the same range and if we round up they weigh the same. They'd also both have roughly the same amount of ammo per ton. That'd make it 50% lighter than the HRC with a lot more ammo. No problem. But how's it go from 12 points of damage to 2?    :-\   I have no idea how that works or what it  means for other Tank Cannons or Rifle Cannons.

If the Rheinmetall Rh-120 were equivalent to a HRC, the -3 point reduction would mean that Rifle Cannons have already had their damages reduced. It'd also mean Tank cannons weapons also just apply the -3 point reduction. Right?

The 120mm going from 12 points to 9. (HRC)
The 8.8cm going from 9 points to 6. (MRC)
The 76.2mm going from 8 points to 5.
The 75mm going from 7 points  to 4.
The 57mm going from 6 points  to 3. (LRC)
The 47mm going from 5 points  to 2.
The 45mm going from 4 points  to 1.
The 40mm going from 4 points  to 1.
The 37mm  going from 4 points  to 1.


If the ranges shrink at the same rate the 37mm would have a range of 6. The same as a Light Machine Gun or the Medium Recoilless Rifle it is equivalent to. Same damage too.

Now I can totally see people saying that the 120mm Tank Cannon would totally outclass ACs. 9 points of damage for only 4 tons with 40 rounds per ton? Who'd even use an AC/5? The HRC though weighs 8 tons and only has 6 rounds per ton. Yes still 9 points of damage compared to 5 but overall the HRC will do 54 points of damage compared to 100 for the AC/5. So the HRC will do if it has to but the AC/5 is the better weapon overall.

remember: much of this game comes down to arbitrary assignment.  there's actually no 'set of formulae' for designing the equipment that goes onto units.  (battletech weapons design doesn't have anything like Traveller's "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" guidelines for equipment and technology.  EVERYTHING is arbitrarily assigned by the devs, and really, it doesn't have to follow any rule except 'rule of kewl' or 'by the desire of the developer'.)

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #189 on: 01 April 2020, 02:29:54 »
remember: much of this game comes down to arbitrary assignment.  there's actually no 'set of formulae' for designing the equipment that goes onto units.  (battletech weapons design doesn't have anything like Traveller's "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" guidelines for equipment and technology.  EVERYTHING is arbitrarily assigned by the devs, and really, it doesn't have to follow any rule except 'rule of kewl' or 'by the desire of the developer'.)

Yeah, I know. Everything is arbitrary and follows the rule of kewl. I also have no problem with several different weapons having mostly identical stats, differing only in 1 or 2 areas. But it'd be nice if there was some kind of order.


Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #190 on: 01 April 2020, 02:51:22 »
As it was put to me, the AToW/AToW Companion rules were an attempt to provide some order, but they didn't succeed.

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #191 on: 01 April 2020, 08:47:29 »
As it was put to me, the AToW/AToW Companion rules were an attempt to provide some order, but they didn't succeed.

Nope. :(   If probably makes things worse. I can't use TM to build vehicles in AToW/AToW Companion. There's also equipment in the RPG that doesn't have TW rules. :(

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #192 on: 01 April 2020, 17:14:10 »
I'm not sure what you mean... The Support Vehicle rules work just fine...

And I'm also wondering what AToW equipment you're talking about...

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #193 on: 01 April 2020, 23:42:01 »
I'm not sure what you mean... The Support Vehicle rules work just fine...

And I'm also wondering what AToW equipment you're talking about...

TW's Support Vehicle Rules do work just fine. However, I can't build  the vehicles listed in AToW/AToWCompanion. The ones from the Companion are especially a pain since in TW they're motorized or mechanized infantry.

As for AToW Equipment, weapons and armor are pretty well covered but its the other equipment. Pretty much starting with Communications equipment and going down. For example, does the Advanced Field Comm. Kit take the place of a secondary weapon? Does it have a crew?

We have TW rules for the Military Relay. It's Communications Equipment. But what about the civilian stuff? And it goes on through AV Equipment to other things. Does recording equipment replace weapons? Can any vehicle use the pop up camper? Including motorized and mechanized infantry? Beast Mounted Infantry?

There's all kinds of things I've been told that's not important and I suppose for most games, they're probably not. But then why have them?  And if you have them why not have rules for their use?

Atarlost

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #194 on: 02 April 2020, 01:21:29 »
Rheinmetall Rh-120 is equivalent to a LAC/2 but it does 12 points of damage against WWII units. I figured the 120mm cannon would be a Heavy Rifle. That it being equal to a LAC/2 makes sense I guess. The HRC and the LAC/2 both have the same range and if we round up they weigh the same. They'd also both have roughly the same amount of ammo per ton. That'd make it 50% lighter than the HRC with a lot more ammo. No problem. But how's it go from 12 points of damage to 2?    :-\   I have no idea how that works or what it  means for other Tank Cannons or Rifle Cannons.

A late 20th century 120mm as a LAC-2 doesn't tally with the rifle cannon stats.  The thing about prespaceflight weapons is that we can look up examples on wikipedia.  Cold War tank guns range from 76.2mm to 128mm with one outliers at 152mm that maybe shouldn't map to tank cannons due to the paucity of examples.  There's also one WWII example at the same size, but if WWII tank guns are included they run down to 37mm with an outlier at 25mm and if that's a LRC there's no way a 120 isn't a HRC.  120mm has to at least map to a MRC with I think a strong case for being a HRC, and both of those do more damage than a LAC-2 to BAR10 armor. 

Perhaps what we really need to do with the tank rifles is retcon them out entirely because they really don't make sense and only draw attention to Battletech construction rules being grossly unrealistic. 

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #195 on: 02 April 2020, 03:08:25 »
TW's Support Vehicle Rules do work just fine. However, I can't build  the vehicles listed in AToW/AToWCompanion. The ones from the Companion are especially a pain since in TW they're motorized or mechanized infantry.
*snip*
This issue certainly needs its own thread, but they all look doable as Support Vehicles to me, and half of the ones in AToW appear to be listed in TRO: Vehicle Annex.

As for the communications stuff, none of it is enough to count for a +1 initiative, or create ghost targets or any other EW effect described at the TW scale.  What did you expect it to do?  ???

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #196 on: 02 April 2020, 03:23:07 »
This issue certainly needs its own thread, but they all look doable as Support Vehicles to me, and half of the ones in AToW appear to be listed in TRO: Vehicle Annex.

As for the communications stuff, none of it is enough to count for a +1 initiative, or create ghost targets or any other EW effect described at the TW scale.  What did you expect it to do?  ???


I know some are in TRO:VA but the rest are Infantry. And I haven't figured out how to build them. In fact at least 1 would be illegal under TW rules.

I'm sure civilian equipment wouldn't be able to counter military equipment but it should still have rules for use and mounting. All we have is tonnage. How many crits? How much military equipment does it take to knockout civilian equipment?

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #197 on: 02 April 2020, 07:27:19 »
they really don't make sense and only draw attention to Battletech construction rules being grossly unrealistic.

we are talking about a game universe, where bipedal man-piloted robotic walkers inspired by an animated cartoon, are a viable, even superior, replacement for low-profile tanks.  Think about what you're dealing with here-this is your context.  "The magic system is slightly inconsistent", Battletech is fantasy, it's a fantasy setting, the concepts work about as well as the idea that a man, with a three foot long knife, is a viable solo combatant against 75 feet of hyperintelligent armored flying reptilian-fire-breathing killing machine.

It's the same level of realism, okay?  one step up from guys in robes hurling lightning and fireballs by wiggling their fingers and waving sticks while chanting bastardized latin.

"This detail is arbitrary" Pretty much applies to every detail in the game.  because it's a magic system, not a science system.  The creators/managers of this magic system say that there's no functional difference between a 37mm gun from world war 2, and a 120mm gun from the modern day-then that's the ruling.  It does not matter that it's counterintuitive, violates logic, is unscientific.  It really doesn't.

because that's what the magic system says...currently.  They've dropped realism for 'rule of kewl' before-my favorite glaring example is the VTOL rules change between BMR(R) and TW.  BMR(R) was actually fairly close to factually accurate.  all you need to do to drop a helicopter (even a very modern one) out of the sky, is unbalance the rotor, and it's ridiculously easy to do as the vietnamese found out between 1962 and 1972.

But they changed the magic system and turned that rotor location into a magic shield instead.  The rules, will be arbitrary, they will focus on promoting a specific paradigm with the setting, whether it's "modern guns are useless" or "The Yellowjacket is viable".

at the end of the day, the final decision really is 'because the creator wills it so'.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

RifleMech

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #198 on: 02 April 2020, 09:24:25 »
A late 20th century 120mm as a LAC-2 doesn't tally with the rifle cannon stats.
  The thing about prespaceflight weapons is that we can look up examples on wikipedia.  Cold War tank guns range from 76.2mm to 128mm with one outliers at 152mm that maybe shouldn't map to tank cannons due to the paucity of examples.  There's also one WWII example at the same size, but if WWII tank guns are included they run down to 37mm with an outlier at 25mm and if that's a LRC there's no way a 120 isn't a HRC.  120mm has to at least map to a MRC with I think a strong case for being a HRC, and both of those do more damage than a LAC-2 to BAR10 armor. 

Perhaps what we really need to do with the tank rifles is retcon them out entirely because they really don't make sense and only draw attention to Battletech construction rules being grossly unrealistic.

That's where I'm having trouble. The weight of the 120mm is close to a LAC/2  (Closer to a PAC/2) and the range is the same. The damage though is closer to being equivalent to a HRC. The 8.8cm Tank Cannon is equivalant to a MRC and the 120mm does more damage than the 88. It's got to be a bigger gun.
The bigger gun (HRC) just so happens to have the same range as the LAC/2.

As for being realistic, BT isn't and Tank Cannons aren't legal outside certain scenarios.  :'(  In BT's reality Rifle Cannons are what were used. At least as far as we know. They could have come out after WWII but before 1950.

My head canon though has Tank Cannons being Lostech. The Terran Alliance would have been pretty reluctant about letting such weaponry off planet. Maybe for avalanche duties and such or the weapons being rendered inoperable. Eventually, the Colonists needed heavy weaponry so they made Rifle Cannons based on the few examples of Tank Cannons that they had and from books and videos. Maybe some planets accurately rebuilt Tank Cannons and some didn't but it was easier to go with 3 classes of Rifles, than lots of classes of Tank Cannons. So the Tank Cannons faded out. That'd leave Rifle Cannons as the main weaponry until 2300. At least, that's how I have it in my head.

Note: There were other weapons but we don't have stats for them.  :'(
« Last Edit: 03 April 2020, 02:56:45 by RifleMech »

Atarlost

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #199 on: 02 April 2020, 16:09:39 »
because that's what the magic system says...currently. 

That excuse relies on Florence's Law: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."  To take advantage of that you have to avoid applying magical rules to anything widely understood.  Among the audience for primitive construction rules in Battletech that is going to include a level of understanding of real world tanks that would in BT terms be primitive sufficient for their attention to be drawn to the problems. 

That you specifically have an unusually low standard for suspension of disbelief does not make this not a problem for others. 

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #200 on: 02 April 2020, 18:32:30 »
Pronoun confusion sets in... what's a problem for who again??  ???

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #201 on: 02 April 2020, 23:26:39 »
That excuse relies on Florence's Law: "Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don't understand it."  To take advantage of that you have to avoid applying magical rules to anything widely understood.  Among the audience for primitive construction rules in Battletech that is going to include a level of understanding of real world tanks that would in BT terms be primitive sufficient for their attention to be drawn to the problems. 

That you specifically have an unusually low standard for suspension of disbelief does not make this not a problem for others.

no so much retaining suspension of disbelief as much as knowing when a battle's already lost.  When  Dev is willing to consider a different position in a discussion like this or listen to alternate points of view, the battle is viable (See: Artillery Scatter arguments from almost a decade ago, Force Size Multiplier, or Math issues with BV2).

When the dev digs in and puts their foot down, even suggesting that they put a lot of work into it and falling back on 'exceptions are how we create new equipment'? then, the battle is lost-and was lost before it began.

even when it's the FORMER line developer rather than the current one, because he's former voluntarily rather than being fired and the separation really WAS amicable (as opposed to being forced out), this "this argument's got legs and teh battle can be won" versus "This battle's lost period" comes into play.

Until another developer picks up the portfolio and has a story-rooted reason to change things, or until something happens and they need to do another massive update to the rules like Total Warfare was, this battle's lost in the present-tense, meaning even very well researched arguments will fall on deaf ears, no matter how reasonable or rational they might be.

really, we're talking about a niche corner of a niche corner of the massive library that is Battletech-in-the-present.  When I started this game, you could contain all the rules to run a ground campaign in a single book for all then-extant eras, from Star League to Clan Invasion,(actually, being specific, when I started ALL the rules came in a thin, paper-back booklet in the box, and there was only ONE tech level.)

at present, you need a document wagon just to carry all the rules you'd need to run a single combined arms battalion with BASIC artillery support.

Not including the literal hundreds of pages of errata out there.

I've seen the process of evolving infantry from popcorn pseudo-minefields to something that can actually be threatening, seen rules completely change through two-and-a-half versions of Aerospace rules, seen the adoption of every goofy idea in Maxtech, Mechforce UK and Unbound, three or four versions of RPG rules, and seen the entire ruleset for a vehicle class changed to make a single unit of that class that wasn't viable while others were, into something that at least isn't a serious liability.

yeah, the rules for an entire CLASS of vehicles changed simply to make one specific design viable, because it wasn't prior to the change.

Rules changes happen, but they're governed by what's going on behind the scenes at Catalyst (or whoever comes after Catalyst, or Topps, or whomever), and not because of internet arguments here on the forums.

and sometimes, you have to listen to the statement, nod, say 'whatever' and play the game how YOU want to.  Because unlike MMOs or console games or PC games, we can actually DO THAT with just the consent of our gaming group and fellow players-we don't have to acknowledge ANY canon statements if we don't want to.  We're not tied down like those console gamers.  If you have a better idea, there's no harm in presenting it, and arguments against can float or sink as you like-your game is YOUR game.

If your idea has better legs than the canon, and it spreads?  Then you can pat yourself on the back and enjoy influencing the community.

Or not.

But keep in mind, everything the community comes up with in these forums? Catalyst can't use ANY of it.  Why? because some jerkoff will claim he came up with it and try to sue them if they do.

it's happened before.  There's a reason they don't accept unsolicited submissions.

much the same can be said of accepting unsolicited suggestions.  They have to be EXTREMELY careful with those.  the margin for being a game company isn't exactly scrooge mcduck levels of wealth, and even a frivolous suit can be crippling.
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HABeas2

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #202 on: 03 April 2020, 02:06:53 »
no so much retaining suspension of disbelief as much as knowing when a battle's already lost.  When  Dev is willing to consider a different position in a discussion like this or listen to alternate points of view, the battle is viable (See: Artillery Scatter arguments from almost a decade ago, Force Size Multiplier, or Math issues with BV2).

When the dev digs in and puts their foot down, even suggesting that they put a lot of work into it and falling back on 'exceptions are how we create new equipment'? then, the battle is lost-and was lost before it began.

even when it's the FORMER line developer rather than the current one, because he's former voluntarily rather than being fired and the separation really WAS amicable (as opposed to being forced out), this "this argument's got legs and teh battle can be won" versus "This battle's lost period" comes into play.

I'm really curious here. Which of these devs was me?

- Herb

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #203 on: 03 April 2020, 03:14:18 »
I'd like to note the Mark VII Landing Craft can again perform it's intended function without destroying itself.

Cannonshop

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #204 on: 03 April 2020, 05:08:01 »
I'm really curious here. Which of these devs was me?

- Herb

It was a hypothetical, Herb.  I probably got overly verbose, but I've watched enough fan/dev arguments to see a standard pattern.  (not sure you remember the times you and I went at it, I mean it's been fairly close to a decade and a half since then, and I was a bit of an ****** at the time.)

The pattern breaks down to: "there are arguments/debates that can be won-because a decision or ruling hasn't been made and the concept is still in motion, and there are arguments that can't be won because the matter's been 'settled' and put to bed-at least until the next product development cycle."

for the time being, Rifle Cannons are in that second group.  the other portion of that post you quoted, near the end, is about where suggestions pretty HAVE to come from (which is not internet forum arguments-the only time those factor in is if there's an actual BUG that was missed in playtest and caught by the fans post-production.)

Rifle Cannons aren't 'bugged'-you mentioned you wanted a more elegant BAR system, but ran out of time and page-count, so settled for something more direct-but that more direct was still to the intent, just not as elegant as you would've liked at the time.

Point being it's serviceable enough-for the time being and the current rules paradigm-which goes back to the whole "Some arguments are worth it because they can be won, some aren't winnable in the present time" thing.

short form, could be any dev, current or former.  (I don't THINK anyone got fired, not since FASA anyway? you guys SEEM pretty okay with each other in public...)

all that loud badgering by me aside, there ARE things that can be done while still keeping that simplified rule in play-a single-shot gun is a platform for moving a given mass a given distance at a given speed.  That mass doesn't HAVE to be a kinetic penetrator, it doesn't even HAVE to be a dedicated anti-armor device.  One of the reasons that NATO kept the 105mm L7 around for as long as they did, is the performance in other roles than merely killing tanks, including indirect fire, antipersonnel, structural breaching...  Those roles might still have value even in the paradigm of Battletech, and it's fun to suggest stuff, but anything on that end will have to wait for someone upstairs to decide they need it, and I honestly don't think the current crop of equipment's been properly digested enough to have a need for yet-another-expansion.

I could be wrong, but that's why my signature is so long.

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #205 on: 03 April 2020, 16:04:23 »
The problem I have is that the decision at the time created a singularity in the rules (that pesky 0 damage for LRCs).  The publication of the AToW Companion was an opportunity to fix that via the more elegant BAR system, and it can be argued the newer rule SHOULD have fixed it merely by its publication since new rules are supposed to trump older ones.  The consequences of the fix are to simply change the -3 damage to -1 for all three RCs, and I think this thread has done an admirable job of showing that ACs are still generally superior as originally intended.

Maingunnery

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #206 on: 03 April 2020, 16:10:13 »
The problem I have is that the decision at the time created a singularity in the rules (that pesky 0 damage for LRCs).  The publication of the AToW Companion was an opportunity to fix that via the more elegant BAR system, and it can be argued the newer rule SHOULD have fixed it merely by its publication since new rules are supposed to trump older ones.  The consequences of the fix are to simply change the -3 damage to -1 for all three RCs, and I think this thread has done an admirable job of showing that ACs are still generally superior as originally intended.
It could be argued that the RCs are actually too strong and should do on average even less damage (maybe LRC-1/MRC-2/HRC-4 for example) to signify using ancient technology.
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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #207 on: 03 April 2020, 16:20:08 »
Too strong?  ???

I don't recall that being a winning argument in this thread...

HABeas2

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #208 on: 03 April 2020, 17:02:28 »
It was a hypothetical, Herb.  I probably got overly verbose, but I've watched enough fan/dev arguments to see a standard pattern.  (not sure you remember the times you and I went at it, I mean it's been fairly close to a decade and a half since then, and I was a bit of an ****** at the time.)

Oh, no. I remember. I also remember a few times where I admitted you were right and scrapped an idea or two for that reason.

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The pattern breaks down to: "there are arguments/debates that can be won-because a decision or ruling hasn't been made and the concept is still in motion, and there are arguments that can't be won because the matter's been 'settled' and put to bed-at least until the next product development cycle."

Both true. Basically the difference is between in-development/in-Beta and published.

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Rifle Cannons aren't 'bugged'-you mentioned you wanted a more elegant BAR system, but ran out of time and page-count, so settled for something more direct-but that more direct was still to the intent, just not as elegant as you would've liked at the time.

Honestly, a more elegant solution is, as I said, tearing the game down to the studs and starting over.

But the closest I was allowed to come to that was...well, never mind. Either way, the issues are out of my hands, and all I can do now is write house rules. Fortunately, this is very much the board for such things. And no rulebook can straight-jacket what you play with on your own tabletops.

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Daryk

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Re: Should Vehicle/Mech Rifles be updated?
« Reply #209 on: 03 April 2020, 17:05:16 »
I think the BAR system and AToW Companion rules ARE the studs... if the earlier Kentucky Windage could be adjusted to them, quite a few problems would evaporate...

 

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