Author Topic: Dragoons Warship Fleet  (Read 20561 times)

Deadborder

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Dragoons Warship Fleet
« on: 29 September 2012, 19:17:28 »
Quick question: There any listing of the ships in the Dragons fleet pre-Jihad? (Post-Jihad it's largely irrelevant)

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #1 on: 29 September 2012, 19:25:23 »
From FM:Mercs, Revised:

Alexander (Aegis-class heavy cruiser)
Beowulf (Congress-class frigate)
Darius (Lola III-class destroyer)
Nelson (Lola III-class destroyer)
Athena (Sovetskii Soyuz-class heavy cruiser)
Mars (Vincent Mk 42-class corvette)

master arminas

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #2 on: 29 September 2012, 19:28:21 »
Here is what I have, from the old Master WarShip List: 

Sovetskii Soyuz-class CA Athena
Aegis-class CA Alexander
Congress-class FF Beowulf
Lola III-class DD Darius
Lola III-class DD Nelson
Vincent-class FF Mars

EDIT:  Ninja'd!

Stormlion1

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #3 on: 29 September 2012, 20:41:04 »
The scary part, this is what the Clans thought a merc unit would have available for warship support. Now weren't they off base a bit.
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #4 on: 29 September 2012, 21:18:56 »
The thing I'm interested in is when did they get these? After the dirty business in Marik space, they dropped their connections to the Clans and didn't make another supply run until the one mentioned in Wolf Pack, where Mackenzie gets offed. So, when did they start fielding warships?

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #5 on: 29 September 2012, 21:27:39 »
IIRC, the Dragoons left their warships along with their reinforcement supplies in the deep Periphery somewhere beyond FS space before they made their 'official' entrance into the Inner Sphere.  They brought them home during Wolfpack.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #6 on: 30 September 2012, 02:41:55 »
The thing I'm interested in is when did they get these? After the dirty business in Marik space, they dropped their connections to the Clans and didn't make another supply run until the one mentioned in Wolf Pack, where Mackenzie gets offed. So, when did they start fielding warships?

They got them from the Clan Council before leaving Clan space when initial scouts into the inner sphere proved the IS had no WarShips the Dragoons cached them and much of there SL tech just beyond the FS/Outworlds until they were needed

The WarShips were originally Clan Widowmakers and were still painted as Widowmaker ships the Dragoons eventually started fielding them in the 3060s I think when they were mentioned in FM:U
« Last Edit: 30 September 2012, 02:48:31 by Dragon Cat »
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #7 on: 30 September 2012, 17:16:35 »
The thing I'm interested in is when did they get these? After the dirty business in Marik space, they dropped their connections to the Clans and didn't make another supply run until the one mentioned in Wolf Pack, where Mackenzie gets offed. So, when did they start fielding warships?

It wasn't a supply run but a recovery operation.

Personally I found it strange that they would wait that long especially after word reached them that the Clan Invasion had begun.  Even if they couldn't start full recovery operations, they should have sent engineers out to start checking them out and seeing what needed to be done to make them operational.  They knew that all the Clans fielded Warships and that the chance of encountering them in combat was high but waited approximately 2 years to recover them?!?!  But I guess that as he was getting older, he was having more trouble delegating and this is one of the issues that would eventually lead to the Dragoon Civil War aka Elson's Challenge.
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avon1985

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #8 on: 01 October 2012, 18:18:27 »
It wasn't a supply run but a recovery operation.

Personally I found it strange that they would wait that long especially after word reached them that the Clan Invasion had begun.  Even if they couldn't start full recovery operations, they should have sent engineers out to start checking them out and seeing what needed to be done to make them operational.  They knew that all the Clans fielded Warships and that the chance of encountering them in combat was high but waited approximately 2 years to recover them?!?!  But I guess that as he was getting older, he was having more trouble delegating and this is one of the issues that would eventually lead to the Dragoon Civil War aka Elson's Challenge.

They might have had to wait to build the infrastructure to support and maintain them.  No sense in bringing then to the IS if you can't repair them.
 

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #9 on: 01 October 2012, 18:47:42 »
There's also the matter of public perception. There was a lot of traffic through Outreach, and the ships were as safe where they were as they would be there, but out in the Dragoons cache nobody would know of their existence.

The Dragoons had, after all, just said "We came from the Clans. Also, we spied on you for them. Also, we will teach you how to fight them, but will not fight them ourselves. Also, ..."

Bringing WarShips in when no other power in the Sphere was known to have any such vessels on the back of such revelations would have been a PR move unsurpassed in idiocy at the time.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #10 on: 01 October 2012, 19:28:29 »
Also it could be as simple as the Dragoons didn't really need them nor could crew them from what personnel they had on hand.
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #11 on: 01 October 2012, 19:29:11 »
Didn't Wolf Pack take place around 3054-3055? If so, that's two years before the first IS Warships put in an appearance according to the MUL. It looks like they were making sure Outreach was defended before the first IS WarShips put in an appearance.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #12 on: 01 October 2012, 19:32:12 »
It was a good decision the Dragoons went for them then, I always get a kick out of leaving the warships in the boonies but when the time comes to go get them back there's someone there trying to salvage them. Hmm, maybe the guys trying to salvage the ships weren't pirates but WoB....
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Maelwys

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #13 on: 01 October 2012, 19:52:56 »
Unlikely. The WoB went after wrecks that they had information on from Star League sources. The Dragoons presumably put their ships in a unknown system. Unless the Dragoons happened to put their WarShips in the same system where a Star League wreck was, its not too likely.

Though I suppose they could've stumbled across them as easily as the pirates, but the WoB at the time was in their infancy.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #14 on: 01 October 2012, 22:23:06 »
Just a thought, the WoB would have been looking for warships around that time and all they might need is a rumor and that might be enough to send a crew playing salvaging pirate for them. Nah, that's pushing the boundrys of believebility there.
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jimdigris

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #15 on: 02 October 2012, 16:51:52 »
If there were warships operating in the Inner Sphere, then the Clans could bid their warships into battle.  After the Smoke Jaguar Turtle Bay bombardment, the Wolves bid theirs out of the invasion, forcing the other clans to do the same.  If the Dragoons had revealed their fleet sooner, that might have brought the Clan fleets back.

Archangel

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #16 on: 02 October 2012, 17:15:44 »
As far as the Clans knew the warships were already active.  It wasn't until Natasha Kerensky returned that they found out that the WarShips were still mothballed (if at all).

Until the Dragoons actually deployed them into the field against the Clans, it is unlikely that any Clan would have altered their bidding.  Unless ComStar actually told the Clans that the Dragoons WarShips were deployed at the planet being bid on, it would have been a major loss of face to be the first to start including them again and you had better believe that the other Clans would have let them know it.
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #17 on: 03 October 2012, 02:08:43 »
Unlikely. The WoB went after wrecks that they had information on from Star League sources. The Dragoons presumably put their ships in a unknown system. Unless the Dragoons happened to put their WarShips in the same system where a Star League wreck was, its not too likely.

Though I suppose they could've stumbled across them as easily as the pirates, but the WoB at the time was in their infancy.

Comstar wasn't though and I imagine that they had an ongoing operation to discover as much about the Dragoons as possible.

That said, we've never been given any indication who was at the cache apart from "pirates".
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #18 on: 03 October 2012, 05:14:13 »
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they were Word of Blake operatives or supported by the Word, though. They had a massive hate on for the Dragoons, and it could well have been one of the many things the Dragoons knew or suspected about the Word that forced their hand.
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truetanker

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #19 on: 03 October 2012, 13:25:44 »
May I ask why everyone thinks the Dragoons warships were abandoned when they left them?

If you have the warships, along with a good stockpile of jumpships with SL-era tech material on board, what makes you sure they didn't leave behind a garrison? Also, if another clan came, the Dragoons only had to invoke the clause from the Grand Counsel not to attack Terra. PLUS they had HPG...

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Jayof9s

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #20 on: 03 October 2012, 13:39:53 »
May I ask why everyone thinks the Dragoons warships were abandoned when they left them?

If you have the warships, along with a good stockpile of jumpships with SL-era tech material on board, what makes you sure they didn't leave behind a garrison? Also, if another clan came, the Dragoons only had to invoke the clause from the Grand Counsel not to attack Terra. PLUS they had HPG...

TT

Well, if they had a garrison for the almost 50 years the ships were sitting out there unused, they were apparently killed by the time Mackenize and crew showed up.

However, I'm pretty sure they would have been mentioned if there had been a garrison. I would have expected the Dragoon forces with Mackenzie to either attempt to get in touch with them and/or at least a passing mention that the garrison must have been killed if the pirates were in the process of taking their stuff.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #21 on: 03 October 2012, 13:48:18 »
May I ask why everyone thinks the Dragoons warships were abandoned when they left them?

If you have the warships, along with a good stockpile of jumpships with SL-era tech material on board, what makes you sure they didn't leave behind a garrison? Also, if another clan came, the Dragoons only had to invoke the clause from the Grand Counsel not to attack Terra. PLUS they had HPG...

TT

Mothballed and abandoned are two different things, and a long period orbit is all you need, say like a Pluto or Comet type orbit, no one even if they are looking will find them, unless they know a starting point and direction, which is as safe as you can get, WOB had the records of SL vessels, so they knew where to look where to start and which direction. I think the Bristol Cache was beyond the HPG Net, unless there was a DRUM System out there and then Comstar would know, and ROM and WOB and everyone else, having to go as few times as possible keeps it safer, so no Garrison, they have to be resupplied, and the Dragoons and Comstar would have been following each other, it amazes me Comstar did find it on one of the subsequent runs.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #22 on: 03 October 2012, 13:54:54 »
Well, if they had a garrison for the almost 50 years the ships were sitting out there unused, they were apparently killed by the time Mackenize and crew showed up.

However, I'm pretty sure they would have been mentioned if there had been a garrison. I would have expected the Dragoon forces with Mackenzie to either attempt to get in touch with them and/or at least a passing mention that the garrison must have been killed if the pirates were in the process of taking their stuff.

They would have to be extremely well equipped, I would assume a Garrison would include Marines,  Aeropsace assets, including Assaultships. short of Lady Death no one has that kind of firepower in the pirate world, I would also see said Pirate attack before the Challenge causing a mysterious disappearance of the Dragoons, which would have been noted.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #23 on: 03 October 2012, 14:29:25 »
They would have to be extremely well equipped, I would assume a Garrison would include Marines,  Aeropsace assets, including Assaultships. short of Lady Death no one has that kind of firepower in the pirate world, I would also see said Pirate attack before the Challenge causing a mysterious disappearance of the Dragoons, which would have been noted.

That's my point, it would have been noticed/noted if one existed. Or the pirates wouldn't have been a problem.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #24 on: 03 October 2012, 14:52:04 »
Well, if you really want to be sinister, as has been said ships should be fantasticly easy to hide; how could pirates hope to find them?  By being given a hint, maybe?

Yes, Wolfnet was the best, but ROM was the second best.  When the Dragoons began getting ready to recover the ships, it made noise in the Dragoons.  Not much, since it was kept quite even internaly, but perhaps just bairly enough to tip off a well placed mole.  Amazing coincidance that the pirates and Dragoons arived at exactly the same moment?  Or a simple matter of the pirates only learning of the location just as the Dragoons were setting out?

If the WoB (or potentaly even real ComStar, though that's rather less likely) were snooping, they might only be able to learn the location as the Dragoon's own expidition was setting out (at which time many more people are given access to the information).  They rushed some 'pirates' out there to see if they could either preempt the Dragoons or else hold them up and cause them problems, the WoB not having any ships of its own at the time after all.  But, the Dragoons moved too fast, and caught the WoB's pirates in the act.

If the Dragoons had left some security behind (not people nessissarily, but just simple things like locks on the doors) and it was defeated, perhaps its because the 'pirates' were aided by someone who understood how to defeat such things (or had some extra guns/dropships floating around).

Now, there's not even the slightest bit of evidance for this.  But, its a fun idea, perhaps.
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jimdigris

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #25 on: 03 October 2012, 16:29:40 »
As far as the Clans knew the warships were already active.  It wasn't until Natasha Kerensky returned that they found out that the WarShips were still mothballed (if at all).
The Clans had no reason to believe that the Dragoon warships were active; The Dragoons had sent back many reports to the Homeworlds.

Until the Dragoons actually deployed them into the field against the Clans, it is unlikely that any Clan would have altered their bidding.  Unless ComStar actually told the Clans that the Dragoons WarShips were deployed at the planet being bid on, it would have been a major loss of face to be the first to start including them again and you had better believe that the other Clans would have let them know it.
Yes, that's my point.  The Dragoons kept their warships in mothballs until their civil war to keep the invaders from using theirs.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #26 on: 03 October 2012, 18:03:36 »
That the Dragoons may have had WarShips has no bearng on the Clan use (or lack thereof) of WarShips.

Despite the Dragoon reports, the Jade Falcons were convinced the Sphere had WarShips and was looking forward to glorious naval combat. When it turned out that there really were no WarShips for them to fight, they sent them back home. After Turtle Bay and Rasalhague, WarShips were not an issue until the Sphere began building their own.

The Wolf Dragoons refused to fight the Clans outright in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, not taking any action against them until Luthien. If they'd had their WarShips they may have used them there, but Luthien was already a complete failure thanks to Lincoln Osis any way, and the precedent that was set called for WarShips to be excluded regardless. At most, if the Clans were fighting the Dragoons (which happened only at Luthien, in a few objective raids against the Wolves where bidding may not have been a factor, and at Coventry after they recovered the WarShips and they were not deployed any way) they may have reserved some WarShip cover, but given that the only time the Dragoons met the Clans in battle the Jaguars and Cats had WarShips present but did not use them it's a stretch to think it would have had a bearing on their decision-making process.

The Dragoons having WarShips would have sent the Sphere ape, but the Clans? Not so much.
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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #27 on: 03 October 2012, 19:15:45 »
May I ask why everyone thinks the Dragoons warships were abandoned when they left them?

If you have the warships, along with a good stockpile of jumpships with SL-era tech material on board, what makes you sure they didn't leave behind a garrison?

Because Clan Wolf used similar tactics to establish ungarrisoned forward supply points in star systems rarely traveled through during Revival, instead of tying down troops to escort every single supply shipment.

I mean, yeah, Clan Wolf didn't exactly store WarShips that way, but they did store war materiel, possibly including fully operational OmniMechs.
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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #28 on: 03 October 2012, 23:13:13 »
Well let me refesh...

Ghost of Winter style HPG. No need to have a garrison, as long as a signal is sent.

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Re: Dragoons Warship Fleet
« Reply #29 on: 03 October 2012, 23:19:11 »
And as long as you're willing to either lose your WarShips to self-destruct, or accept the privateers who took them getting months of lead time to abscond.

Pretty sure the Dragoons wouldn't have been too keen on either outcome.
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