Dragoons Warship Fleet

[Stormlion1]

Whats suprising is that once the Dragoons recieved Outreach from the FedSuns the didn't move the warships there sooner. They could have easily put them in-system somewhere out of site in mothballs rather than out in the periphery where you can't keep track of them.

[Hellraiser]

The scary part, this is what the Clans thought a merc unit would have available for warship support. Now weren't they off base a bit.

Just goes to show you what must have stayed behind from the SL Navy.

The WarShips were originally Clan Widowmakers and were still painted as Widowmaker ships the Dragoons eventually started fielding them in the 3060s I think when they were mentioned in FM:U

Where is that bit from ?  Dont recall hearing it before.




As for "Pirates", instead of WoB, I always thought the idea that it was Explorer Corps unit that got lucky was a possibility.

[Stormfury]

Whats suprising is that once the Dragoons recieved Outreach from the FedSuns the didn't move the warships there sooner. They could have easily put them in-system somewhere out of site in mothballs rather than out in the periphery where you can't keep track of them.

The Dragoons had ComStar and later WoB ROM crawling all over them, and even the FedCom's intelligence arm keeping a watchful eye over their activities. Shifting WarShips is a serious undertaking, especially after the Succession Wars when all of their new recruits were from outside the Dragoons and they needed to be exceptionally careful not to tip their hand to anyone else about their origins or intentions.

Not to mention that as the headquarters for the mercenary trade, Outreach sees a lot more traffic than pretty much any other world. The Ruins of Gabriel were hidden because nobody was really moving in or out of Odessa that much, something Outreach cannot claim. And if the ships are secure where they are, why risk discovery?

[DaveMac]

Another point is where did they get the crews for six warships as there can't have been many crew members left from the original mission?

I assume a combination of simulator training and dropship crew could account for most but the capital weapons and engines in particular would require specialist knowledge

Perhaps they brought back some volunteers from the Homeworlds on their last contact

[Dragon Cat]

Just goes to show you what must have stayed behind from the SL Navy.

Where is that bit from ?  Dont recall hearing it before.




As for "Pirates", instead of WoB, I always thought the idea that it was Explorer Corps unit that got lucky was a possibility.

IIRC it was the original Wolf Sourcebook that detailed how they were outfitted

[Youngblood]

Out of curiosity, when was AeroTech introduced?  And did the 'goons fiat their way into having WarShips before or after those types of units came into play? ;D

[Stormfury]

Fiat is repeatedly dominating the storyline, repeatedly dominating the TRs, and repeatedly being either undefeated or suffering largely consequence-free losses.

Fiat is not being repeatedly shredded and painstakingly rebuilding before being castrated.

[Dragon Cat]

Out of curiosity, when was AeroTech introduced?  And did the 'goons fiat their way into having WarShips before or after those types of units came into play? ;D

I think the Dragoons were always fluffed as having 'significant' assets.  While I admit they did seem to get a decent portion of writers good luck they also got the hell kicked out of them more often than not

You could say the WarShips were a bit much but they didn't do the Dragoons all that good with all destroyed very early in the Jihad.  If one had survived the jihad to lead the fleet during the assaults on Terra that I would cry 'fait!!' too but they didn't they got spammed as did the majority of Dragoons

[roosterboy]

IIRC it was the original Wolf Sourcebook that detailed how they were outfitted

The original Wolf SB said nothing about the Dragoons having any WarShips. It was in AT2r (possibly even AT2, but I can't find that at the moment) that it was mentioned where the Dragoon WarShips came from.

[The Hawk]

If the Dragoons had left some security behind (not people nessissarily, but just simple things like locks on the doors) and it was defeated, perhaps its because the 'pirates' were aided by someone who understood how to defeat such things (or had some extra guns/dropships floating around).

I like this idea.  It's equally plausible with actual pirates that the WoB leaked information to, which there's some precedent for (i.e., Jolly Roger).

Another point is where did they get the crews for six warships as there can't have been many crew members left from the original mission?

This is probably the best explanation for why it took them so long to go collect their WarShips; until the Clans showed up with WarShips and triggered the Inner Sphere arms race in WarShip design and construction, there wasn't much reason to go to the enormous expense of training and operating said ships.  None of the hulls the Dragoons had were very good anti-aero platforms, so in the absence of other WarShips there's not much the Dragoon vessels were needed for -- and they would certainly attract massive aerospace flotillas to destroy them, if they were the only ships in the Inner Sphere.

Do we know whether the Dragoon vessels were the original Star League models, or the updated Clan versions?  Given that Mars was a Mk. 42 Vincent rather than a 39, I assume the latter, though it seems strange that they would be given updated tech rather than old hulls straight out of mothballs -- particularly since, unlike the original Dragoon 'Mechs, some of those vessels have Clan-tech weapons.

[Stormlion1]

It would be entirely possible the the Widowmaker warships were pulled from mothballs for the Dragoon Compromise and given a refit while the Dragoons themselves were being picked and given new training in Inner Sphere tactics. In fact they probably had to be given a refit given the amount of time they sat in mothballs.

[Dragon Cat]

The original Wolf SB said nothing about the Dragoons having any WarShips. It was in AT2r (possibly even AT2, but I can't find that at the moment) that it was mentioned where the Dragoon WarShips came from.

I was sure it was my mistake

[Hellraiser]

This is probably the best explanation for why it took them so long to go collect their WarShips; until the Clans showed up with WarShips and triggered the Inner Sphere arms race in WarShip design and construction, there wasn't much reason to go to the enormous expense of training and operating said ships. 

Quite likely they pulled the "retirees" out to train their current crop of DS/JS crews up to WS standards & that took a couple years.  Explaining the +/- 4 year difference from Clan arrival to Warship recovery.

Do we know whether the Dragoon vessels were the original Star League models, or the updated Clan versions?  Given that Mars was a Mk. 42 Vincent rather than a 39, I assume the latter, though it seems strange that they would be given updated tech rather than old hulls straight out of mothballs -- particularly since, unlike the original Dragoon 'Mechs, some of those vessels have Clan-tech weapons.

I assume they are Clan tech upgrades since IIRC, all the clans started doing refits in the 31st century with the build up to Revival.  The goons ships might have just been the 1st.
The few clan tech weapons just gives all the more reason to have left them in caches in 3005.

[Archangel]

Quite likely they pulled the "retirees" out to train their current crop of DS/JS crews up to WS standards & that took a couple years.  Explaining the +/- 4 year difference from Clan arrival to Warship recovery.

Actually it doesn't.  When the initial reports of the arrival of the Clans reached Jaime, he had no idea how many Clans were involved, what their rate of advance would be and most certainly would not have been aware of the Truce of Tukayyid.  It would have made sense to activate at least one Warships even if it was undermanned, manned with personnel stripped from their DS/JS fleet.  A Warship would have been an excellent Ace to have in one's back pocket.  While stationed over Outreach, the Warship could help with training new Warship crew members.  At the very least they should have been moved closer to Outreach so that they could be quickly activated if the need arose.  Based upon their speed of advance, the Clans would have reached Outreach long before the date MacKenzie Wolf set out to recover the Warships were it not for the Truce of Tukayyid.

I assume they are Clan tech upgrades since IIRC, all the clans started doing refits in the 31st century with the build up to Revival.  The goons ships might have just been the 1st.
The few clan tech weapons just gives all the more reason to have left them in caches in 3005.

Unlikely.  More likely they were mothballed Warships that hadn't been converted to Clan specs.  Perhaps including some leftover Warships from the Widowmakers or Wolverines.

[Hellraiser]

Actually it doesn't. 

 
To you perhaps.

When the initial reports of the arrival of the Clans reached Jaime, he had no idea how many Clans were involved, what their rate of advance would be and most certainly would not have been aware of the Truce of Tukayyid. 

Quite right.
Which means he assumes all of them, which means they hit him before he ever gets to it.
Or he assumes only 1-2 which means they never get to him.
Or, he assumes that even the SMALLEST warship fleet of the Clans (Spirits) have the firepower to tear apart his 1 warship and its no ace in the whole at all.
Instead he didn't do any of that.
Which can be explained by the time needed to train up crews for all of them which would take a couple years.
Just because YOU would do it differently doesn't mean those can't be the reasons why HE did it the way he did.

It would have made sense to activate at least one Warships even if it was undermanned, manned with personnel stripped from their DS/JS fleet.

And have all those Intel people suddenly perk up at seeing ONE warship & then decide they want to find out where he got it & backtrack movements to find the other 5 ?
No, I don't see that as a good idea at all.
Last but not least, knowing the clans the way he did, he knows they tend to ignore the warships & favor ground based fights which is likely why he was focusing on gearing up the goons to clans specs & offered to show the IS how to make the same.

Unlikely.  More likely they were mothballed Warships that hadn't been converted to Clan specs.  Perhaps including some leftover Warships from the Widowmakers or Wolverines.

Its already been stated above that canon shows us the Vincent is the Clan tech model.
Its also been stated above that canon shows us they were old Widomaker ships.
When you pull a ship out of mothballs its going to need major overhaul anyway.
All the clans started doing them in that era as they geared up for a revival that they didn't think would be quite so far away.
There is no reason to have one refit to clan specs & not the rest of them.

[General308]

I think the Dragoons were always fluffed as having 'significant' assets.  While I admit they did seem to get a decent portion of writers good luck they also got the hell kicked out of them more often than not

You could say the WarShips were a bit much but they didn't do the Dragoons all that good with all destroyed very early in the Jihad.  If one had survived the jihad to lead the fleet during the assaults on Terra that I would cry 'fait!!' too but they didn't they got spammed as did the majority of Dragoons

That is like saying Batman got the Hell kicked out of him.  It doesn't matter because like Batman the Dragoons always have what ever magic toy they need to say they day.   Then two days latter they are all better and stronger before.   Jammie Wolf must be of the Wayne Family.

[Stormfury]

"Always"?

I'd say that their Battle of Hesperus, Anton Marik's Revolt, the 4th Succession War, Elson's Challenge, the First and Second Battles of Outreach and the assault on Mars completely invalidate that.

The Dragoons actually did substantially worse than other elite formations during their run. They failed quite a lot, and needed to rebuild more often than any other similar unit I can think of.

[Stormlion1]

True, the Dragoons ability to rebuild/resupply and the fact that they showed up with five regiments of top tech mechs and equipment and had what at the time was elite mechwarriors is what made them the elite. Having warships was icing on the cake, but in the days of the Succession Wars it was dangerious, every Succussor State would have dogpiled the dragoons if they saw warships when they first showed up, heck it was all they could do not to when they saw there mechs, much less things like a portable space station.

[Archangel]

Which can be explained by the time needed to train up crews for all of them which would take a couple years.
Just because YOU would do it differently doesn't mean those can't be the reasons why HE did it the way he did.

Better to have a weapon and not need it than not have a weapon and need it.  The Dragoons would have been able to assemble a skeleton crew by mothballing some of their DropShips and JumpShips and assigning them to critical positions.  Benefits include the senior officers and senior enlisted gaining experience and knowledge in running a Warship that they can later pass on to newly assigned crew, instructors getting information from those crew that they can teach to their cadets and cadets being able to get some advanced hands-on instruction.

And have all those Intel people suddenly perk up at seeing ONE warship & then decide they want to find out where he got it & backtrack movements to find the other 5 ?
No, I don't see that as a good idea at all.

Yeah I guess that was stupid of me to suggest that he hold a parade announcing the arrival of one of the warships.  Oh wait I didn't!

The FWLM and the WOBM spent months in the FedCom controlled Elgin system salvaging the Essex Class Oslo nee Raven and weren't discovered.  On the other hand the Dragoons control the Outreach system which would make it far easier to hide a Warship especially since the MRBC hadn't yet been formed.  The FWL hide several Warships in different systems each with considerable traffic.  The Black Paw escaped detected by Clan forces during Operation Audacity.  And who says they need to stash them in the Outreach system anyways?  Hide them in a nearby uninhabited system that is only one jump away rather than in the Periphery.  Caretaker crews can be assigned to check them out and make sure they are ready when needed.  Ships traveling through these systems generally want to stay unnoticed so they will avoid keeping their sensors active for long periods at a time so the likelihood of detection is extremely low especially with the Warships using minimal power.

Last but not least, knowing the clans the way he did, he knows they tend to ignore the warships & favor ground based fights which is likely why he was focusing on gearing up the goons to clans specs & offered to show the IS how to make the same.

So you are saying that while the ground forces were getting geared up on Outreach  that Dragoons couldn't spare a single JumpShip and some DropShips to recover the Warships and move them closer?

Its already been stated above that canon shows us the Vincent is the Clan tech model.

Shown in FMMercs.  However there is nothing that states when the Vincent was actually updated to Clan specs.

Its also been stated above that canon shows us they were old Widomaker ships.

Have you actually seen any actual canon material stating this.  I haven't.  As far as I am aware it is current pure speculation.

When you pull a ship out of mothballs its going to need major overhaul anyway.

The amount of repair required varies depending upon various conditions including the condition it was placed into mothballs.  Which is actually another reason why the Dragoons should have started recovery operations sooner.

All the clans started doing them in that era as they geared up for a revival that they didn't think would be quite so far away.
There is no reason to have one refit to clan specs & not the rest of them.

How about the most obvious one - not wanting the Warships to appear too advanced by equipping them with Clantech?  I believe that was the reason why they didn't equip the Dragoons with Omnis.

[Maelwys]

AT2R's color plates state "Bringing six ships captured during the Absorption of Clan Widowmaker out of mothballs, Clan Wolf outfitted the Wolf Dragoons for their fateful covert reconnaissance mission."

[Minemech]

"Always"?

I'd say that their Battle of Hesperus, Anton Marik's Revolt, the 4th Succession War, Elson's Challenge, the First and Second Battles of Outreach and the assault on Mars completely invalidate that.

The Dragoons actually did substantially worse than other elite formations during their run. They failed quite a lot, and needed to rebuild more often than any other similar unit I can think of.

Looking at their record, they had a stellar trackrecord, heck they were specifically targetted by the Combine during the 4th and made it out. The sheer force the Word of Blake used on them was still not enough to destroy them.

[Iron Mongoose]

I tend to agree.  If the Dragoons lost, its because they took on vasty more powerful opponents.  Anton was a significant under dog, and the Dragoons were nearly enough to tip the ballance in his favor (had he not pushed his golden geese too hard, he might have very well won).  The 4th Succession War pitted a damaged Dragoons (post Misery) against a very large part of the Draconis Combine, one of the historicaly most millitarialy capable Successor States.  Elson's was a civil war, so the best fought the best.  Outreach and Mars were against the Word of Blake, a secret super power that was able to take on all five Successor States at once and sow significant chaos and do considerable damage; the much larger Case White was an even worse falure than the Dragoon's assualt, and Stone's final assualt on Terra with more power even than Case While still took a significant beating.

That the Dragoons are the best isn't really in question, I don't think.  Everyone takes their lumps.  If you're Jacob's Juggernaughts, you take it from the Capellans that you and your allies just sprung a great ambush on (oops).  If you're the Dragoons, you take it from a whole nation-state, and come back to do it all over again.

As to the ships themselves, they were nearly never used.  Mars, perhaps one of the Dragoons' worse losses, is the key exception.  So I don't know that you can point to them as being the reason the Dragoons are awesome, or as a reason why the Dragoons are too awesome. 

[Stormfury]

I tend to agree.  If the Dragoons lost, its because they took on vasty more powerful opponents.  Anton was a significant under dog, and the Dragoons were nearly enough to tip the ballance in his favor (had he not pushed his golden geese too hard, he might have very well won).

Unlikely, since he was used as a dupe by other powers hoping to maximise the chaos in the Free Worlds League for their own advantage. The majority of the League's military was staying uninvolved thanks to the Home Defence Act, so it's not as though the FWLM was going to drop on them in force.

The 4th Succession War pitted a damaged Dragoons (post Misery) against a very large part of the Draconis Combine, one of the historicaly most millitarialy capable Successor States.

Historically being the key word, there. The Draconis Combine has constantly been on the back foot since the Second Succession War, and kept getting hammered by the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth during the Third and Fourth Succession Wars, the War of 3039, and beyond. The DCMS was headed by a man who had suffered a stroke that impaired his decision-making and leadership ability, and Hanse made use of his inability to focus on anything other than Jaime Wolf at that time to make them the bait of a well-laid trap. They still took so many casualties after Misery and the Fourth Succession War that they needed decades to rebuild.

Elson's was a civil war, so the best fought the best.

Costing the Dragoons their then-leader, many troops, and resulting in a hiring ban being placed on them for (IIRC) half a decade.   

Outreach and Mars were against the Word of Blake, a secret super power that was able to take on all five Successor States at once and sow significant chaos and do considerable damage; the much larger Case White was an even worse falure than the Dragoon's assualt, and Stone's final assualt on Terra with more power even than Case While still took a significant beating.

The much larger Case White took place some years later, after heavy build-up from the Word of Blake, and with ComStar ROM pretty much all being secretly Word of Blake ROM agents. The Dragoons' strike came as something of a surprise and essentially spelled the end of the Dragoons as a combat force for the remainder of the Jihad.

Then there's the matter of their Battle of Hesperus, when the Eridani Light Horse, a smaller force, beat them back.

That the Dragoons are the best isn't really in question, I don't think.  Everyone takes their lumps.  If you're Jacob's Juggernaughts, you take it from the Capellans that you and your allies just sprung a great ambush on (oops).  If you're the Dragoons, you take it from a whole nation-state, and come back to do it all over again.

That they are the best mercenaries is not really important; someone has to have that title, and the Dragoons didn't bear that mantle for as long as others like the Northwind Highlanders, 21st Centauri Lancers, or Blue Star Irregulars did given the amount of time they had to keep taking out to rebuild.

The Dragoons really didn't recieve the kind of hyperbolic fiat they are constantly accused of getting. Other factions recieved far, far more (hello, CapCon...) and they fly completely under the radar despite being major players in the storyline.

[Iron Mongoose]

Despite all being valid and correct points, they hardly override the over all point, that the Dragoons' opponents that beat them were nearly all vastly more powerful.  A successor state with a myopic leader is still more powerful than a mercenery unit with clever leader, and a supprised WoB is more powerful than a prepaired mercenery unit.  Are there reasons they were able to acomplish what they did?  Of course, or else they wouldn't have done it.  The only case where their opponent was broadly on the same level that you point to is the ELH on Hesperus.  Hesperus is known to be highly defensable (never taken in many many attempts) and the ELH are known to be some of the other best merceneries in existance, so they were hardly whooped up on by a lesser opponent. 

I genuinely like the Dragoons, it should be noted, and I enjoy their status as being excelent.  And, to again tie it in to the topic at hand, the whole reason I brough this up is because it has nothing to do with the presence or absance of Dragoon naval assets.  Despite the tragic death of MacKenzie Wolf, the Warships never really played a role from 3054 to 3068.  So, while there's a sort of fame they have, the fact that a thread like this is even needed to ask what ships they were testifies to their secondary importance.

[Maelwys]

Case WHITE happened 4 months after the Dragoon attack on Mars.

[Stormfury]

Fair enough. I thought it happened in '72, with the Dragoons hitting Mars in '67-'68.

[FedComGirl]

I can't see the Dragoons getting their warships any sooner than they did. Before the Clans arrival they'd be too busy rebuilding. After the Clan's recall order they knew the Clans were coming and would know better than to go around activating warships. Especially, when Jaime planned to reveal the secret of their origins. Outreach was a heavily traveled system by then and 6 Warships popping into the system is going to be noticed. You'd have jumpships fleeing the system immediately and the FedCom would have gone on full alert and moved troops in just in case. Then one wrong move or word and the Dragoons and the FedCom are at war. Nope. Not a good idea. It'd be a totally unnecessary provocation.

The Dragoons couldn't do it right after the Clans invaded either. They'd be taken for Clanners before they could say otherwise. The Clans were the only ones with Warships then and if the Dragoons had been spotted their ships would have caused a panic and the FedCom would have opened fire fearing they were under a sneak attack. Not that the Dragoons had the personnel available anyway. By then most of the crews would have retired or died and those that remained were busy moving the troops around.

It wasn't until the Houses started fielding warships that Jaime thought they'd be needed. And I think there was some debate even then about sending someone to go get them. It's been a while since I read the book. I think they finally decided to get them and use the mission as a means to integrate the two fractions. Unfortunately that didn't work.

[Dragon Cat]

Personally I think the Dragoons under used their WarShips I'd have liked to see them more actively used during the 'secret war' phase of the Dragoons opposing the Word then again that lvl of conflict would have risen the Word of Blake trouble level far too quickly for the Words plans

The Dragoon hiring ban after the Civil War sort of took the Dragoons from the lime light to the back what would have been cool is if when Natasha Kerensky returned to the Clans she had taken the WarShips as her ransom to the Wolves then you could have seen them used more

[Øystein]

Personally I think the Dragoons under used their WarShips I'd have liked to see them more actively used during the 'secret war' phase of the Dragoons opposing the Word then again that lvl of conflict would have risen the Word of Blake trouble level far too quickly for the Words plans

It is simple why they weren't. WarShips are not tools for precision covert fighting between special ops and such.

Øystein

[Maelwys]

It wasn't until the Houses started fielding warships that Jaime thought they'd be needed.

Actually, as far as I can tell, the Dragoons decided to reactivate them before the Houses started to field WarShips. It was when the Houses were building WarShips, but the Houses wouldn't field any for another 3 years I think (except for maybe the FWL). Its a minor point, but a worthwhile one.

The Dragoon hiring ban after the Civil War sort of took the Dragoons from the lime light to the back what would have been cool is if when Natasha Kerensky returned to the Clans she had taken the WarShips as her ransom to the Wolves then you could have seen them used more

Wasn't the Dragoon hiring ban from the novel Wolf Pack before the Dragoon Civil War when one of their battalions turned tail, and Jaime decided to take responsibility on himself and the Dragoons rather than limiting it to the Battalion/Regiment? Or are we talking about a different Civil War? (Just for what its worth, the Epilogue of Wolf Pack mentions the Dragoons hiring themselves out atleast twice right after the Civil War).