Author Topic: Succession in mechwarrior families  (Read 8719 times)

solmanian

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Succession in mechwarrior families
« on: 13 December 2015, 01:11:45 »
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

solmanian

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #1 on: 13 December 2015, 01:52:55 »
-snip-
First we need to make a seperation between "Mechwarrior families", whose title would be baronet at the most, but more likely some knighthood, and "Noble families" with military traditions which would be a Baron and above.

As knights, the title isn't inherited, each generation has to prove himself worthy of renewing their title. Losing the title, would hurt the entire famliy. Choosing the best successor helps the entire family, including the child that get passed over, since he can still attend a national Academy or simply hang around the family estate like he's in "Downtown Abbey".

Among noble families, whose inheritance is already secured, and battlemech forces likely to be at least a company and more, actually piloting the battlemechs is more of a privileage than a duty. Their main role is to actualy financialy support the formation for the planetary/national needs, their liege don't really care what's the individual mechwarriors last name is.

If the noble can no longer provided the required service or cannot effectively rule their fief, they're likely in danger of losing said fief.  The two go hand in hand. The idea of simply giving the mech to the best pilot would be as likely to get the family stripped of lands & title for incompetent rule as giving the mech to an incompetent pilot would get lands & title stripped for not fulfilling military obligations.
It's pretty difficult to effectively administer your fief when you're on your second consecutive year of a military campaign into the draconis combine. Do you believe nobles on the front lines spend their days pouring over financial reports? This is only strenghen the point of the person managing the estate at home, and the person fighting on the front line to be seperate people...

Also, I doubt you'd find historical cases, or many parents who'd wish to strip their children of their inheritance.
The "Family", the Legacy, comes first. BT has examples of nobles assassinating their children if they feel they're jeporadizing the line; giving the battlemech to someone more competent to act as "champion" of the famliy, is tame by comparisson. It also isn't stripping their inheritance, it's securing it.

Besides, was every member of the extended family trained from birth to possibly inherit manage the fief?
Among noble famliies? Yes, very much. That's established in cannon. Even if not inheriting their ancestral land, they still have a good of being appointed to rule a portion of it, or even assigned to different lands through political means in order to expand the greater famliy power.

The best mechwarrior might be a completely incompetent Lord.
That never stopped anyone...

I don't think it's realistic at all to think a noble could just hire someone to rule their fief and not need to do so themselves.  Again, I don't know of any historical or canon precedent for that.  I doubt their noble superior is going to accept "The guy I hired to do my job screwed it up."  That's a good way to get stripped of your title.
Really? Because it's EXTREMELY common in BT... I suggest pouring over the handbooks again. Each nation has at least one planet devoted to nobles who don't won't to actually live on their crummy dirtball, just cash their checks, and do their political machinations if they're especially industrious.

Julian is the lord of Markeson. When was the last time he even visited there? A decade or more?
Saying to your lord "I'm a stupid warrior who can't do math, so I ran the place into the ground, but at least I fight good" is much more likely to get your estate stripped than appointing a proffessional.

Well, I have to go to work. Disscuss.
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

vidar

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #2 on: 13 December 2015, 08:21:04 »
Remember we are talking about a fictional fedal society, so let's look at somethings form history.
1. There was a class of noble trained just to run estates, the wives >:D.  So why not a gender equality version of this?  The children who would not be mech jocks would be trained as spouses that run estates.

2. There were professional estate agents, stewards, chatilans, and such.  Often payed in a percentage of the estates out put these in some cases so scary good professionals.

ColBosch

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #3 on: 13 December 2015, 09:09:19 »
Woo, neo-feudalism! Important Fact #1: Neo-feudalism is not historical feudalism.

When it comes to providing military forces, we see all sorts of examples in canon. Many MechWarriors, even in the lostech days, joined their realm's military, attended a training program (often a military academy) and were assigned a state-owned BattleMech; those who excelled could be awarded honorary (knighthood) or landholded (baron, etc.) noble titles. A family or individual that owned their own 'Mech(s) would be expected to provide the machine(s) and pilot(s) to their realm's service. These seem to almost universally be military-appropriate ages, with the insinuation that once a 'Warrior's children were taught how to pilot a 'Mech and reached the appropriate age, the previous pilot would retire to manage the estates. There are not a few examples of higher-ranked nobles going on campaigns. These are usually either those with high military rank (even if a soldier is common-born, if he reaches the upper command ranks then he's going to get a title or two), those who prefer the hands-on approach (such as Duke Hassid Ricol), or those who cannot sire children and are looking to serve out their remaining days in a useful fashion.

Depending on the realm, a military's actual fighting forces are either wholly state-owned (Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine) or a mix of state-owned and privately-raised. The Federated Suns has its March Militias, the Lyran Commonwealth has its Provincial forces (and the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon is an extreme example of a noble providing his own forces), and the Free Worlds League had so many units owned by its constituent states that it led to the downfall of the realm. Locally-raised troops tended to be conventional planetary militias, as with the 348th Reserve Detachment of the Skye militia that funded the Sea Skimmer hydrofoil, or the jeep-equipped infantry seen in Decision at Thunder Rift. But even then, sometimes older 'Mechs form part of such forces, especially after the lostech era ended. Speaking of Thunder Rift, clearly landed nobles could also hire mercenaries to provide for local protection.

As for who manages the estates when the MechWarrior has gone off to war, it does appear that it's usually the 'Warrior's family. But not always; the best example is probably Duke Vedet Brewer. While he was campaigning with the GDL, he left his "estates" - Defiance Industries - in the hands of professionals, i.e., his company officers. Archon-Prince Victor Steiner-Davion, while an extreme example, often left his realm under the care of his advisers. MechWarrior, Second Edition goes into some detail on the nature of noble households, making clear that they aren't just the MechWarrior's immediate family.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #4 on: 13 December 2015, 10:29:17 »
Bookmark.  I'm away from my PC and don't really want to deal with walls o' text on the phone, but in the immortal words of Doublas MacArthur, I shall return.
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vidar

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #5 on: 13 December 2015, 13:57:24 »
Woo, neo-feudalism! Important Fact #1: Neo-feudalism is not historical feudalism.
Hmm though I specified fictional,  well it's more that there were actually systems in place in "real" feudal societies.  So this fictional system could barrow for the system we know about.  Like the retired warriors or families.  So let's say it's an interesting mix of corporate and feudal cultures,  but reading what you pointed out it might be closer to guild (corporate) high feudalism.

ColBosch

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #6 on: 13 December 2015, 14:25:25 »
Hmm though I specified fictional,  well it's more that there were actually systems in place in "real" feudal societies.  So this fictional system could barrow for the system we know about.  Like the retired warriors or families.  So let's say it's an interesting mix of corporate and feudal cultures,  but reading what you pointed out it might be closer to guild (corporate) high feudalism.

I'd say it's closest to late Colonial-period monarchies. You've got old landed families, those descended from the original headmen, elders, and warlords. You've got new nobility, who earned their titles (or sycophanted for them). You've got unlanded knights. You've got a mix of sessile serfs and a fairly mobile middle class. Your military is a mixture of professional soldiers directly controlled by the state and those raised by major nobles, and often a large contingent of mercenaries. The main difference is that the corporations aren't chartered monopolies, and you've got a genuine corporate upper class.

Of course, this applies mostly to the Davion and Steiner states. The Draconis Combine is more of a pure monarchy, with levels of noble governors. The Capellan Confederation is a socialist dictatorship that seems a bit confused on what to do with its nobles. The Free Worlds League was a weird mix of constitutional monarchy and representative federation, so no wonder it fell apart.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
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Iracundus

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #7 on: 13 December 2015, 16:29:51 »
I'd say it's closest to late Colonial-period monarchies. You've got old landed families, those descended from the original headmen, elders, and warlords. You've got new nobility, who earned their titles (or sycophanted for them). You've got unlanded knights. You've got a mix of sessile serfs and a fairly mobile middle class. Your military is a mixture of professional soldiers directly controlled by the state and those raised by major nobles, and often a large contingent of mercenaries. The main difference is that the corporations aren't chartered monopolies, and you've got a genuine corporate upper class.

Of course, this applies mostly to the Davion and Steiner states. The Draconis Combine is more of a pure monarchy, with levels of noble governors. The Capellan Confederation is a socialist dictatorship that seems a bit confused on what to do with its nobles. The Free Worlds League was a weird mix of constitutional monarchy and representative federation, so no wonder it fell apart.

Actually the Capellan Confederation seems to parallel nobles during Imperial China.  They are separate and in parallel to the main government bureaucracy, and have limited political power except for the very highest levels, where their fiefs can be almost separate kingdoms (St. Ives Compact/Commonality).  The Confederation also makes formal the distinction between old landed nobility and the newer "sword nobility" with titles gained through military service.  The Handbook also says about Ingersoll, that many nobles (implied to be the Sheng) spend their time there year round and delegate the "day to day operations of their fiefs to seconds or unfavored sons."  I get the impression the Confederation has nobility but discourages them from participating in high level politics through a combination of carrot (resort worlds and steady income) and stick (Maskirovka causing "accidents" or confiscating their assets on various charges).  The land confiscation was practiced by Romano at a large scale and crippled the Sheng, though STL seems to have returned some of their land back.  This confiscation on real or imagined charges was also a practice during Imperial China for nobility that stepped out of line.   

ColBosch

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #8 on: 13 December 2015, 16:32:14 »
And now I have to admit that I'm only a few pages into Handbook: House Liao. ;D I'd skimmed it for projects before, but just started reading it for real.
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solmanian

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #9 on: 13 December 2015, 16:44:11 »
As far as I know, all houses have at least one (usually more) such "resort worlds". The sheer convergence of interstellar (national) power, makes this worlds also administrative capitals, which also tends to often drag along an increased military presence, since an attack on such world will throw the entire region into turmoil, and will be tantamount to a "decapitating strike" even if it only affects the local duchy/prefecture/province/march. And the ransoms would be astronomical ("how much are you willing to pay for a third of the Capellan March nobility, mostly in tact?"
Making the dark age a little brighter, one explosion at a time.
Have you met the clans? Words like "Naïve" and "misguided" are not enough to describe the notion that a conquest of the IS by the clans would result in a Utopian pacifistic society.

Iracundus

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #10 on: 13 December 2015, 17:32:55 »
As far as I know, all houses have at least one (usually more) such "resort worlds". The sheer convergence of interstellar (national) power, makes this worlds also administrative capitals, which also tends to often drag along an increased military presence, since an attack on such world will throw the entire region into turmoil, and will be tantamount to a "decapitating strike" even if it only affects the local duchy/prefecture/province/march. And the ransoms would be astronomical ("how much are you willing to pay for a third of the Capellan March nobility, mostly in tact?"

I am not sure whether the Confederation would pay such ransoms at all given these would be just be absent landlord nobles, and given how in the Confederation the nobility seems much more neutered and powerless compared to other Houses aside from the level of Commonality leaders.  Really how many significant Confederation nobles can you name offhand, aside from the usual big names like Candace?  Don't forget the Confederation is also the state with the precedent of bombarding its own capital flat when it was held hostage, so I cannot see it caving in to pay ransom for a handful of individuals.  I think the Confederation's response would likely be to fire off tactical nukes at such a concentration of enemy force, while saluting and shedding manly tears at the sacrifice of those Capellan nobles. 

ColBosch

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #11 on: 13 December 2015, 17:42:20 »
I am not sure whether the Confederation would pay such ransoms at all given these would be just be absent landlord nobles, and given how in the Confederation the nobility seems much more neutered and powerless compared to other Houses aside from the level of Commonality leaders.  Really how many significant Confederation nobles can you name offhand, aside from the usual big names like Candace?  Don't forget the Confederation is also the state with the precedent of bombarding its own capital flat when it was held hostage, so I cannot see it caving in to pay ransom for a handful of individuals.  I think the Confederation's response would likely be to fire off tactical nukes at such a concentration of enemy force, while saluting and shedding manly tears at the sacrifice of those Capellan nobles.

I think they'd expect the noble's family to cover the ransom.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #12 on: 13 December 2015, 18:23:23 »
I'd be surprised if a ransom offer was delivered to the state itself rather than directly to the noble parents of a scion taken captive.  The state is too much more likely to say "Keep him" rather than pay up.  Heck, if your captive IS a landed noble you can transmit the ransom demand to your captive's fiefdom administrator, complete with signed orders from your captive to certainly pay every last C-Bill and right now.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #13 on: 14 December 2015, 18:57:06 »

I want to note first of all that I'm most familiar with the FS noble system, and will be the basis for my discussion.  As ColBosch noted earlier, things are rather different in the DC, CC, and FWL, so my remarks probably aren't all that applicable there.

First we need to make a seperation between "Mechwarrior families", whose title would be baronet at the most, but more likely some knighthood, and "Noble families" with military traditions which would be a Baron and above.

As knights, the title isn't inherited, each generation has to prove himself worthy of renewing their title. Losing the title, would hurt the entire famliy. Choosing the best successor helps the entire family, including the child that get passed over, since he can still attend a national Academy or simply hang around the family estate like he's in "Downtown Abbey".

Among noble families, whose inheritance is already secured, and battlemech forces likely to be at least a company and more, actually piloting the battlemechs is more of a privileage than a duty. Their main role is to actualy financialy support the formation for the planetary/national needs, their liege don't really care what's the individual mechwarriors last name is.
Fair points.  I think it could be broken down even further.  Here's how I would (and I'll use these terms in the rest of the post):

Very High Nobles: These are your House Lords, their immediate family, March Lords, important state ministers (head of MIIO, for exampje).  These folks are so high that they break all the rules and we probably shouldn't try to draw generally-applicable paradigms from them.  Unfortunately, they're also the folks we know the most about, so I'll likely end up making some references to them anyway.

High Nobles: Dukes and Marquesses.   These people have major administrative responsibilities over entire worlds or more, and likely own the fealty of dozens to hundreds of lower-ranking nobles.

Low Nobles: Counts and Barons: These have some administrative responsibilities, but are lower on the chain, closer to the people, and a few might even be elected by the people instead of inherited offices.

Knights: Just barely nobles, they can't mete out justice, collect taxes, or the like, and are generally noblity in name only.  Likely to include many up-jumped commoners.  I'm not sure that Knightly appointments are generally for life only, though.  Where are you getting that?  I haven't seen anything indicating that they are generally any different from other noble titles, which are generally hereditary unless specified otherwise.


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It's pretty difficult to effectively administer your fief when you're on your second consecutive year of a military campaign into the draconis combine. Do you believe nobles on the front lines spend their days pouring over financial reports? This is only strenghen the point of the person managing the estate at home, and the person fighting on the front line to be seperate people...
It depends on the administartion.  For Knights, who have no power over the citizenry and can't collect taxes, you're likely right.  They can hire someone to manage their estate in their absence.  There are probably a good number of absentee knights, though I'd imagine that if they don't ever put in an appearance there might be some social pressure from their noble superior.
  For higher ranking nobles, I think it's going to be different.  If your noble title includes responsibility to rule, mete out justice, hear complaints against your noble subordinates, and the like, you're probably better off staying close at hand.  A Count who isn't around to hear complaints against corrupt barons might find himself subject to a citizen-prompted Public Inquiry by his own superior.  Even so, they have few enough responsibilities they might be able to foist them off on someone else, likely family or subordinate nobles, but I doubt you can just hire some administrator when your job may include stripping lesser nobles of their titles.  I can only imagine how badly it'd go if some commoner filling in for an absent Count tried to relieve a Baron of his title.  If you're a Marquess or above, the multiplying responsibilities probably make it next to impossible to spend much time away from your fief.

It also depends on where you're at.  Deep in the interior of the Crucis March, it might be easier.  Out on the borders, if you're away playing soldier and aren't there to direct the defense when your world gets raided, your boss is probably going to take it out of your hide.


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The "Family", the Legacy, comes first. BT has examples of nobles assassinating their children if they feel they're jeporadizing the line; giving the battlemech to someone more competent to act as "champion" of the famliy, is tame by comparisson. It also isn't stripping their inheritance, it's securing it.

Among noble famliies? Yes, very much. That's established in cannon. Even if not inheriting their ancestral land, they still have a good of being appointed to rule a portion of it, or even assigned to different lands through political means in order to expand the greater famliy power.

That never stopped anyone...
This is where you lose me.   What indication do we have that in BT society the extended family comes before the immediate family?  None, so far as I can see.  Parents are going to look after their own children before they take care of nephews, nieces, cousins, etc.  That's simply human nature.  A parent doesn't secure anything for their children by giving the mech and title to their 2nd cousin.  Hell, that's a good way to end up like Harrison Davion, when you tell your kid they're not getting anything but some money and an apartment in the mansion, while cousin Bob's getting the whole estate and the mech.  Maybe children get disinherited occasionally, but it's not standard to pass the lion's share of the inheritance to the extended family's best mechwarrior, regardless of degreee of consanguinity.  That doesn't make any sense.

Quote
Really? Because it's EXTREMELY common in BT... I suggest pouring over the handbooks again. Each nation has at least one planet devoted to nobles who don't won't to actually live on their crummy dirtball, just cash their checks, and do their political machinations if they're especially industrious.

Julian is the lord of Markeson. When was the last time he even visited there? A decade or more?
Saying to your lord "I'm a stupid warrior who can't do math, so I ran the place into the ground, but at least I fight good" is much more likely to get your estate stripped than appointing a proffessional.

Well, I have to go to work. Disscuss.
Maybe knights can get away with that.  But if you have a duty to rule, oversee lesser nobles, the planet's defense, etc?  If you're abrogating all that responsibility to serve in a regiment somewhere, why shouldn't your noble superior take the title from you and give it to the hireling who's actually doing the job you were appointed to do?

Julian's one of those cases that's so high the rules quit applying.  Almost everyone on the Privy Council is going to have one or more noble titles.  None of them are actually doing that job, because the Prince appointed them to a post on New Avalon that's more important.  He probably has some Marquess overseeing the world and only contacting him if something goes seriously pear-shaped.




Something else that's barely been touched on but has relevance is BT lifespans.  Most House Lords don't live that long for a variety of reasons, but every indication is that most people, especially on worlds with good tech, live well into their 80s, 90s, even beyond.  It's very possible that the average heir in the IS can spend 40 years in the military, then retire to play with his grandkids and study under mom or dad for another decade before they actually assume their post.   Actual nobles might generally be in their 60s, 70s, or even older when they take over (though there will of course be exceptions).  By that age, the military would probably rather they retire anyway.  It's probably a lot easier for the noble to decide what part of his duties to focus on He's 102 and has been retired from the AFFS for 40 years, his heir is 80 and overseeing the Planetary Guard while he waits on dad to die, his heir is 55 and contemplating retirement from his post as a colonel in the AFFS, and his heir is 32 and busily trying to advance his career, while teaching his own 10 year old the rudiments of mech piloting....
« Last Edit: 14 December 2015, 19:08:15 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Koren-Gagin

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #14 on: 16 December 2015, 01:57:30 »
This is where you lose me.   What indication do we have that in BT society the extended family comes before the immediate family?  None, so far as I can see.  Parents are going to look after their own children before they take care of nephews, nieces, cousins, etc.  That's simply human nature.  A parent doesn't secure anything for their children by giving the mech and title to their 2nd cousin.  Hell, that's a good way to end up like Harrison Davion, when you tell your kid they're not getting anything but some money and an apartment in the mansion, while cousin Bob's getting the whole estate and the mech.  Maybe children get disinherited occasionally, but it's not standard to pass the lion's share of the inheritance to the extended family's best mechwarrior, regardless of degreee of consanguinity.  That doesn't make any sense.
Maybe knights can get away with that.  But if you have a duty to rule, oversee lesser nobles, the planet's defense, etc?  If you're abrogating all that responsibility to serve in a regiment somewhere, why shouldn't your noble superior take the title from you and give it to the hireling who's actually doing the job you were appointed to do?

Well rember for every rule there is an exception and well the exceptions do not have to be only reserved for the high mighty lords of the state. Sure for what could be safely assumed for the average noble family the heir will the genetic legacy of the current hewd of the family. Yet using real history and other fictional series since this is a fictional universe some noble families have skipped the assumed choice.

Of course the desicsion to skip is done if the capabilities of the heir and so defeict that to allow the said next heir to take over is like handing tbe keys to the mech to the 16 year old thats trying to impress his buddy's and/or girls. Or something if you dare to think any harder for a cliche to replace the one I used.

And think about this the BTU population is so vast that to assume that exceptions to the heir normally being the son or duaghter of the current title bearer. Is rare or far between that it has no possible bearing is fool hardy. The total population of the BTU is hard to f8gure but between at least a few hundred planet's populated, each one requiring leadership on all levels and with a bear minimum need noble like one with full rule on the interplanetary level and his family well that leaves alot of wingle room for the extended family potentially gain the ability to lead or take over substantial part of controlling the assests of the family until the next heir of the main family is groomed to take over.

So sure this is assume to powerplay which we have seen in one certain huge conflict were the younger sibling decided she should lead and well went crazy or was already. Not sure if the canon has put that to rest.

But imagine as title bearer and head of the family you come to the realization that your child is so inept that even his underlings are incapable of keeping his failures from being so disastrous. So would rather risk the extended family (temporarily of course) or the younger child taking over as soon as possible. Or let your failure of a child bring everything you and ancestors have strived for. Decision is simple take the risk l, put in the summer mansion and let him be a man child till an good old ripe age of "not a threat to the families future anymore"

"History is written by the victors, the defeated live it"

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #15 on: 16 December 2015, 05:05:54 »
Of course there are exceptions.  There will always be exceptions.  I'm not disputing that.  I'm saying that, where those things happen, they'll be rare.  If a Lord's heir is crippled or for some other reason incapable of piloting, I'd fully expect some other pilot in the family to take up the family mech, but I'd expect the mech to go back to the main line the next time there was an able-bodied pilot.  Likewise if the noble's heir was unfit to rule, say due to being severely mentally ill, I'd expect the throne to pass to whoever was next in line, whether a younger sibling, grandchild, niece/nephew, etc.  I'm saying that such instances are abnormal, and it shouldn't be assumed as standard that the Lord will pass the mech and title to whichever member of the family is the best pilot.  We have little to no reason to believe that inheritance in BT normally operates under anything besides lineal primogeniture, outside of the Clans and, I suppose, the Magistracy, where daughters seem to be favored over sons.
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Koren-Gagin

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #16 on: 16 December 2015, 11:03:52 »
I fully agree with you, sll i was saying is even if the exceptions are only like 5 tp 10% of the nobility across the BTU.  Which due to the large number number of nobles in each state would mean rare to us would be not an uncommon event as we are assuming.

Of course the precentile i used is arbitrary at best since to be able calculate what the true precent would so much data that we could spend years sifting through it all. Whivh would never happen sonce we know how super expansive amounts data on everything will never happen.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #17 on: 16 April 2019, 16:47:36 »
  Feudalism and Neo-Feudalism are merely frameworks and guidelines for operations. Any Lord could say "My son is an idiot, I'll give my 'mech to the son of my retainer to pilot, in the behalf of my family. After I die, the 'mech goes to a trust on the condition that my idiot son has no say over its disposition."
   Of course, the above is always fuel for legal challenges and intrigue. "Lord X is planning to hand over his family mech to his daughter, how dare he even think a mere woman could deserve such an honor?"
  Rivalry is part of being a noble.
 
  Realistically, the primary job of any noble is tax collection. Lesser nobles collect product and income from their subjects, they keep a portion and pay their superiors, those nobles do the same, on up the line. For the most part, wars are rare, even in the BT universe. Not every noble participates, although there are rewards for participation. Of course, there are border worlds that have no choice in the matter, especially where systems change hands every few years. The good news is, there are regular job openings for nobles in those disputed regions.

  The benefits and obligations of nobility differs between the houses. In the Combine, some academies award a daisho (set of twin swords) to certain graduates. The daisho is a tangible symbol of lesser, individual nobility, the equal of a samurai. Of course, many historical samurai were impoverished ronin, and had little more than their blades, but in Japanese culture, those blades meant quite a lot.
  Being a mechwarrior isn't always a sign of nobility, just the way not all mechwarriors are officers, most would be NCOs, while a few leaders, administrators and commanders would be officers.

  Merc families are less nobles than they are merchants. A mech is just property that can also earn wealth, but at a risk. A merc father could dispose of the mech as he chooses, although, with enough forethought, a mech of any kind opens doors of opportunities, unlike any other. Showing up at a regular unit, a mech is worth at least one step up in rank. A personal mech will have academies vying for a young student and, of course, there are many nobles looking for retainers with their own equipment.
 

Daryk

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #18 on: 16 April 2019, 20:06:04 »
I've always preferred to think MechWarriors are at least Warrant Officers (like helicopter pilots today)...

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #19 on: 16 April 2019, 20:25:55 »
There's theoretical/technical rank, then there's the fact that a Mechwarrior has control over a BattleMech.  And battles of the 31st century are decided by what the BattleMechs do.

This is why Mech officers get away with telling higher ranking officers commanding conventional forces what to do. Technically a Captain doesn't outrank a Colonel, but the officer commanding 12 battlemechs has more power than an officer commanding a thousand infantrymen.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #20 on: 17 April 2019, 20:14:35 »
I've always preferred to think MechWarriors are at least Warrant Officers (like helicopter pilots today)...

  In a military with hiring problems, they need to pay people they sorely lack. Mechwarriors are a dime a dozen in the BT universe. Look at the number of German Luftwaffe NCO aces during WW2 (plus the many who started out as NCOs and were promoted as aces), plus all the other nations who didn't need to overpay pilots.
  There is a reason why BT academies have separate OCS courses, being an officer is not a given.

  As far as command goes, I seriously doubt that an infantry regiment Colonel will waste his time listening to some mech company captain, ever. Piloting a mech does not make anybody a tactical genius any more that playing basketball makes people taller. I'm GMed enough players who had a hard enough time merely pushing a lance around a table and I'd rarely allow them command over a regiment unless I wanted to watch them get slaughtered...which I did allow, to prove my point.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #21 on: 18 April 2019, 09:52:08 »
i've generally viewed the mech and the property/title as separate.

basically, that the IS lured over SLDF troops to their service by granting lands and minor titles to anyone who brought their mech with them, which they counted as the property of the pilot. and that they continued to grant property (including the mechs they'd piloted in service) to well performing pilots that retired after meritorious service. when mechs got rarer, anyone with a mech was expected to contribute to the defense of the state, making the income from the lands vital for upkeep when said mech wasn't being piloted as part of the standing army. (instead being militia or other adhoc formations)

the landed mechwarrior families were expected to produce generations of new pilots, in order to preserve their ancestral skills and ensure a steady supply of skilled pilots for the military. 'excess' family members which were trained but didn't have a mech to inherit from the family would be expected to enter the army and pilot one of the state owned machines.. and if they did meritorious service might get rewarded with their own lands and machine when they retired, to add to the family's.

a mechwarrior family that lost the mech would not lose the land and title, but would be accorded lesser status. (after all, if a state made a habit of disenfranchising nobles, even lesser nobles, it would quickly have issues with the loyalty of nobility..) presumably mechwarrior families without a surviving mech would be expected to obtain a new mech as soon as possible. more well off ones would probably just purchase one, or hire mercs to raid an enemy site to steal one. less well off ones would probably push their kids to enter the military and earn one through meritorious service or salvage agreements. presumably a lot of mech-less mechwarrior families have kids enter the mercenary trade, especially if they can't make it in the military or find themselves in a military career lacking in chances to earn a mech.

 

Dmon

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #22 on: 20 April 2019, 19:10:05 »
I have been slowly conducting a project over the last couple of years that deals with a lot of the notable families in the BT universe.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Noble_Houses and http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Titles_and_Positions

I can confirm the lack of lower end ranks such as Knight or Baronette even being mentioned, leading me to believe that in universe they are either considered to be of such low worth as to not be mentioned or that they are that ubiquitous with 'Mech ownership that again, they are not mentioned as a title in of itself.

Something else of note is outside the descriptions of nobility in the various sourcebooks (usually the RPG books description of ranks) there is very little information of how fudalism actually works within the universe. There is very little talk of vassals and any sort of power structure beyond "title" rules planet x.

In 325 noble houses listed here and maybe another 20 I still need to make articles about there are all of maybe 4-5 families that I can say are vassals of another family rather than directly to the head of state.

Garrand

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #23 on: 24 May 2019, 14:46:47 »
Something else of note is outside the descriptions of nobility in the various sourcebooks (usually the RPG books description of ranks) there is very little information of how fudalism actually works within the universe. There is very little talk of vassals and any sort of power structure beyond "title" rules planet x.

I suspect for the vast majority of the battletech audience, a dissertation into the finer points of feudalism would be over their heads and/or very boring. That's why I think it is educational if you're interested to read up on medieval feudalism & then rationalizing how it applies to the Battletech setting. Carl Stephenson's Medaeval Feudalism is a pretty short & to the point book on the subject (although an older book...IIRC dates back to the '40s but still in print) for someone that wants to develop a good working knowledge of the subject.

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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #24 on: 24 May 2019, 17:37:03 »
  I figure the people who put the BT universe together had no clear understanding how feudalism worked they same way they had no clear understanding on how the military or nations worked. You only have to read the source books to figure that out.

  Feudalism a thousand years ago is little different than the remnants of feudalism today. They had laws of succession which were codified and public knowledge so that there is never any confusion, should a sovereign die. All modern monarchies have them, the same way all modern democracies and republics have a defined chain of command structure, should the top politicians vacate their office. When somebody tells me the Terran Hegemony had no government after Kerensky left I have to laugh, because it makes the SL look all the more like a banana republic, and not a modern nation of laws.

As a single soldier, when I was in line to complete my personal data for my will, I put "By Law", which meant that legally, my insurance would go to, in succession, my father, my mother, then to my individual brothers, depending on who was alive at the time. A married soldier's insurance, etc., would go to a surviving spouse and children, as by law.

Example of Current Order of Succession:
https://www.royal.uk/succession

nerd

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Re: Succession in mechwarrior families
« Reply #25 on: 30 May 2019, 12:28:17 »
My guess is it would be a form of Tanistry.

The Family has a group of youngsters who are capable of being MechWarriors. The most promising is chosen as the heir. Eligibility is based of a common ancestor (perhaps Great-grandparent).
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