Author Topic: what if: Improved Advanced tactical missiles show up in Dark age/Ilclan era IS?  (Read 1486 times)

Izzy193

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this is a abit out there so please humour the thought, what if iATM technology showed up in the inner sphere post wars of reaving? specifically in dark age and ilclan eras. would a unit using them and making them provoke a violent response or just get furrow brows form others? for example a merc unit accidentally recreated them from scratch, as just an example.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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How would they recreate them when no mercenary even knows they exist?

iATMs are gone and they should stay that way.


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Metallgewitter

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They are not gone they are in  the Homeworlds. And which clan would actually remember this tech? Heck that might cause another tech race

Scotty

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I would be really annoyed at iATMs showing back up.  There are very few things that just feel categorically unfair but that's one of them.
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Dragon Cat

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I'm actually surprised they haven't, no way one Clan didn't salvage at least one before pulling out, but the universe has moved away from the Homeworlds since Reaving and if they did show up it would start that rumour mill up so I guess it remains era specific

Now if it did show up in a Clans hands I think the Inner Sphere wouldn't be chuffed facing it and the Clans would start a wee inter Clan war to secure it

Actually thinking about it let's say the Wolves took a couple when they grabbed McKenna's Pride. When the ilClan comes off Terra they've been mass producing them, it's be a nice way of shocking opponents who are "used" to Clan-tech
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3

17thRecon

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Can som one explain the “unfair” and/or why they’re gone? Totally unfamiliar with this.

AlphaMirage

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Streak accuracy and longer range are the 'unfair' part. iATMs were also Society tech and most of their developments are understandably buried in the past by popular decision

Scotty

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The combination of ATMs with streak capability and some of their alternate ammo being ludicrous. They take a weapon that's already very efficient and make them even more so.
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17thRecon

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 👍 and thanks to both of you.

Liam's Ghost

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Setting aside the balance and game and preferences issues for the moment.

Whoever recreates them is probably set for life. The distant society stigma will most likely be meaningless, and they will be an absolutely hot commodity because they're just that good.

Count on the Sea Foxes making the developer extremely rich or extremely dead to secure control of the market. Also expect them to eventually become a regular element of the Ilclan's arsenal.

Also, stocks in companies manufacturing AMS and reactive armor might see a spike.  :grin:
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Metallgewitter

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You forgot stocks for companies who produce Angel ECM's  :wink:

cray

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this is a abit out there so please humour the thought, what if iATM technology showed up in the inner sphere post wars of reaving? specifically in dark age and ilclan eras. would a unit using them and making them provoke a violent response or just get furrow brows form others? for example a merc unit accidentally recreated them from scratch, as just an example.

I'd give the mercs a thumbs up and let them have the iATMs while I stuck with Clan LRMs or Inner Sphere MMLs.

Basic ATMs were really stinkers: no indirect fire (IIRC), no specialty ammo types (mines and smoke are really missed), and a need for 3 different ammo types to match what Clan LRMs accomplish with standard ammo. The greater weight per tube means that Clan LRMs generally match or outpeform ATMs (again, with one ammo type) except for about range 1-3. ATMs are basically yet another direct fire Clan weapon in a crowded field of excellent weapons and they don't stand out.

iATMs address some of the issues by getting indirect fire and 2 variant warheads (magnetic pulse and inferno), but they're still heavy for their firepower.

So, I wouldn't be concerned about the reintroduction of iATMs. There are more dangerous Clan weapons out there.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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They are not gone they are in  the Homeworlds. And which clan would actually remember this tech? Heck that might cause another tech race

All the IS Clans got booted before the Society deployed their weapons. So just the Scorpions.

Which is to say that if a random mercenary unit somehow made them it would be idiotic.


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marcussmythe

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Can som one explain the “unfair” and/or why they’re gone? Totally unfamiliar with this.

iATMs bear roughly the same relationship to normal ATMs as Clantech does to SL era gear.  I believe the general consensus is that the game just doesn't need that sort of lethality jump, or a new weapon obsoleting all that came before *again*

cray

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Can som one explain the “unfair” and/or why they’re gone? Totally unfamiliar with this.

I don't see an issue with iATMs. They're a clumsier, heavier version of Clan LRMs. ATMs and iATMs lack the versatility of LRM ammo and, worse, need multiple ammo types (short, standard, long) to accomplish what LRMs do with one ammo type.

This ammo limitation and reluctance of Clans to cooperate in battle with artillery-type units means that iATMs aren't getting a lot out of their indirect fire capability.

That leaves iATMs really competing in a crowded field of Clan direct fire weapons. Their Streak function is a nice heat saver, but you're not going to carry a number of iATM tubes competitive with Clan pulse lasers, ER weapons, HAGs, etc.

So, the iATM isn't that impressive. It's a dud like the Variable Speed Pulse Laser, though not as much of a dud as the original ATM.

Clans really missed an opportunity with ATMs then doubled down on their mistakes with the iATM. The Inner Sphere had the smart idea: MMLs. Make a missile launcher able to fire a wide range of munitions, SRM and LRM, but not wedded to either. The problem with the MML is weight, typical of Spheroid designs. A Clan MML would be more of a game changer than the iATM.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Scotty

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Variable Speed Pulse Lasers are also extremely good so I'm just in the position of having to disagree extremely hard with Cray's opinion on both.

ATMs of equivalent weight will do less damage at long range, equivalent damage at medium range, and massively more damage at short range.

An ATM 6 and an LRM 15 are the same weight; the ATM generates less heat (4 vs 5) and has more ammo per ton (10 vs 8).  ER ammo has better range than an LRM by a substantial margin but ignoring that for the comparison a single ATM 6 will average 5 damage at long range to the LRM's 9; standard ammo averages 10 damage at medium range to the LRM's still 9; HE ammo averages 15 damage to the LRM's 9.

In terms of hit numbers the math is more complex thanks to different ammo types than I'm willing to do on my break, but it very broadly comes down to the ATM having the luxury of choosing good ranges and moderately lower damage, or significantly improved damage.

On anything that can dictate range the ATMs result in a decisive advantage up close - traditionally where the IS is more at parity with the Clans in the first place.  The ammo needs are definitely a concern for smaller launchers, but as soon as you have a many as 12 tubes (usually two 6s) you'll have access to any ammo you want and tonnage parity with an equivalent LRM.

EDIT: these numbers get much better for the ATM when streak capability is included, and the ability to indirect, and defeating non-Angel ECM, and being special ammo, and, and, and
« Last Edit: 26 December 2023, 13:19:06 by Scotty »
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cray

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Variable Speed Pulse Lasers are also extremely good so I'm just in the position of having to disagree extremely hard with Cray's opinion on both.

If VSPMLs had been 2 tons then they'd be awesome and I wouldn't complain.

I just had to write-up a Spider variant with 2 medium VSPs for one of the ilClan Recognition Guides. I had wanted to build the Spider around a single Clan ER large laser and 10/15/10 movement. Instead, the design sacrificed 8 tons for 2 VSP medium lasers weapons, dragging its useful range down to 5 hexes while its speed was down to 8/12/8. That was fine in 3025 but it's suicide for a 'Mech expected to kill Clan units. The VSPML is not competitive with Clan medium pulse lasers, let alone the many heavier Clan weapons that can easily evaporate a light 'Mech dancing around in those weapons' short ranges.

Given that I was stuck with 2 VSPMLs, it wasn't hard to consider all the alternative configurations possible for 8 tons: 8 medium lasers, 4 medium pulse lasers, 4 medium X-pulse lasers, 4-6 ER medium lasers and heat sinks...all of them delivering more average damage than 2 VSPMLs. (And all just as suicidal for the Spider. Light 'Mechs survive by keeping target numbers high, which means long range and high speed.)

The VSPML's -3 to hit and 9 damage at 0 to 2 hexes is nice, while the -2 and 7pts to 5 hexes is only okay. And it's hindered by the 4-ton weight. You can do better with almost any combination of 4 tons of other medium lasers.

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ATMs of equivalent weight will do less damage at long range, equivalent damage at medium range, and massively more damage at short range.

For an equal tonnage of tubes, the damage isn't massively greater but more like 20% greater just over a range of 1-3 hexes. And ATMs need 3 types of ammo to get that mild damage edge while the LRM doesn't.

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An ATM 6 and an LRM 15 are the same weight; the ATM generates less heat (4 vs 5) and has more ammo per ton (10 vs 8).  ER ammo has better range than an LRM by a substantial margin but ignoring that for the comparison a single ATM 6 will average 5 damage at long range to the LRM's 9; standard ammo averages 10 damage at medium range to the LRM's still 9; HE ammo averages 15 damage to the LRM's 9.

In terms of hit numbers the math is more complex thanks to different ammo types than I'm willing to do on my break

It does take a spreadsheet.   azn  I had a spreadsheet cooked up for assessing different weapons at different target numbers, but there was an error in the cluster hits averaging page that I never got around to fixing.

Like with the medium lasers, the target numbers radically affect damage. 2d6 rolls get very different results with the +/-2 change of range bands. So...

ATMs do have an advantage over Clan LRMs at 1-3 hexes, though it's not "massive" for an equal weight of launcher. Using your ATM 6 vs LRM 15, you've got the same target numbers at ranges 1-3 but 18 base damage versus 15. ATM HE ammo promptly becomes uncompetitive with Clan LRMs at 4+ hexes.

ATMs ER ammo has good range bands, which help it. As I recall, the range bands are good enough that standard ATM ammo isn't very useful at all - you can get by with short and ER ammo. ER ammo's to-hit bonus is good enough that it is comparable to LRMs at 8-9 hexes and 15-18 hexes. However, having less than half the base punch (6 vs 15) means that when range bands are equal (5 to 7, 9 to 14) LRMs are better.

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but it very broadly comes down to the ATM having the luxury of choosing good ranges and moderately lower damage, or significantly improved damage.

That's not a luxury, it's an unnecessary complication that the Clan LRM avoids.

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The ammo needs are definitely a concern for smaller launchers, but as soon as you have a many as 12 tubes (usually two 6s) you'll have access to any ammo you want and tonnage parity with an equivalent LRM.

ATMs won't have mines, ATMs won't have smoke, ATMs won't have infernos, but they will need 3 types of ammo to slightly outperform one type of LRM ammo. That's not an advantage for ATMs.

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EDIT: these numbers get much better for the ATM when streak capability is included, and the ability to indirect, and defeating non-Angel ECM, and being special ammo, and, and, and

The damage advantage is, as noted above, modest, and you need 3 types of ATM ammo to replace 1 LRM ammo type. iATMs do have some specialty ammo (magnetic pulse warheads, infernos) which is nice for individual combat but doesn't offer the campaign utility options of mines or smoke.

The indirect feature is a very nice patch to one of the ATM's greatest flaws, but tends to be wasted on Clans. You need spotters and cooperative engagements, which Clan warriors tend to avoid. If you do get spotters helping the shots then, yes, iATMs get close to parity with Clan LRMs.

The Streak feature is nice, but it's a heat and ammo saver, not a game changer. Clan energy weapons are weight competitive with iATMs, do full damage on every hit, and avoid ammo usage, too.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Minemech

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If VSPMLs had been 2 tons then they'd be awesome and I wouldn't complain.

I just had to write-up a Spider variant with 2 medium VSPs for one of the ilClan Recognition Guides. I had wanted to build the Spider around a single Clan ER large laser and 10/15/10 movement. Instead, the design sacrificed 8 tons for 2 VSP medium lasers weapons, dragging its useful range down to 5 hexes while its speed was down to 8/12/8. That was fine in 3025 but it's suicide for a 'Mech expected to kill Clan units. The VSPML is not competitive with Clan medium pulse lasers, let alone the many heavier Clan weapons that can easily evaporate a light 'Mech dancing around in those weapons' short ranges.

Given that I was stuck with 2 VSPMLs, it wasn't hard to consider all the alternative configurations possible for 8 tons: 8 medium lasers, 4 medium pulse lasers, 4 medium X-pulse lasers, 4-6 ER medium lasers and heat sinks...all of them delivering more average damage than 2 VSPMLs. (And all just as suicidal for the Spider. Light 'Mechs survive by keeping target numbers high, which means long range and high speed.)

The VSPML's -3 to hit and 9 damage at 0 to 2 hexes is nice, while the -2 and 7pts to 5 hexes is only okay. And it's hindered by the 4-ton weight. You can do better with almost any combination of 4 tons of other medium lasers.
It was a sweet upgrade for Phalanx BA for a time, but I also see the wind blowing that way for Battle Armor in general.

 I will argue that the ATM made immense sense for me as a direct upgrade on the Tempest.

Retry

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Surprised to see quite a few people here that think ATMs are really good and even efficient.  Whenever we tried them we found them to be lousy.

The iATMs were pretty good, though.

Minemech

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Surprised to see quite a few people here that think ATMs are really good and even efficient.  Whenever we tried them we found them to be lousy.

The iATMs were pretty good, though.
I think that they are situationally good. The Tempest may have a Gauss Rifle, but it wants to pummel you fairly close, so the ATM fit the bill. An iATM might have made it an iStorm Tempest.

Scotty

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For an equal tonnage of tubes, the damage isn't massively greater but more like 20% greater just over a range of 1-3 hexes. And ATMs need 3 types of ammo to get that mild damage edge while the LRM doesn't.

I'm getting ready to do the math, but I feel the need to point out that having flexibility with more ammo types can't be a negative for one launcher and a positive for another.  Besides, the number of kinds of ammo is fairly irrelevant, since it's not eight or ten.  It's very possible to fit three in a reasonable payload, and that's not even always necessary.

It does take a spreadsheet.   azn  I had a spreadsheet cooked up for assessing different weapons at different target numbers, but there was an error in the cluster hits averaging page that I never got around to fixing.

It might take me a bit but I'll get one for this comparison.

Like with the medium lasers, the target numbers radically affect damage. 2d6 rolls get very different results with the +/-2 change of range bands. So...

ATMs do have an advantage over Clan LRMs at 1-3 hexes, though it's not "massive" for an equal weight of launcher. Using your ATM 6 vs LRM 15, you've got the same target numbers at ranges 1-3 but 18 base damage versus 15. ATM HE ammo promptly becomes uncompetitive with Clan LRMs at 4+ hexes.

It's funny you mention this: the +2 on the cluster table is very important here, to the point that this comparison feels inappropriate.  The ATM 6 does at least 15 damage over 50% of the time.  The LRM 15 does it less than 6% of the time.  ATM HE ammo is going to be closer than you think at 4+ hexes, and then at 5 hexes Standard is going to be better again - book it.  Standard is the best type to use at ranges exactly 5 and 10, but it turns out that having the same optimum range bands as ER Medium Lasers is a good thing.

EDIT: before I go killing myself with this spreadsheet, an important acknowledgment: Clan LRMs are one of the most efficient pieces of equipment the game has ever seen and I object to the idea that a piece of equipment is a dead-end if it fails to be more efficient at every range than The King of Guns.
« Last Edit: 27 December 2023, 00:44:18 by Scotty »
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

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theagent

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There are only two benefits to the iATM over the ATM, but one of them is kind of a "6 of one/half-dozen of the other".
  • Indirect fire is nice (since ATMs don't get that).  But...you lose the benefit of Streak when firing indirectly.  While that means you're now rolling a cluster, I would also tend to rule that this also means you don't get the "if my strike roll is unsuccessful it doesn't fire so I don't go up in heat" benefit.  If the Streak system is disengaged to fire indirectly, you can't get the benefit of it not firing due to a lack of a Streak lock, because it's impossible to get a Streak lock in indirect-fire mode since that's turned off.
  • The benefit of the streak lock is kind of nice.  However, sometimes you may not want to have as much ammo left on your 'Mech, so having the +2 cluster hit roll with Artemis might be better than the "only fires if it locks" Streak benefit.  But that's maybe a personal thing.

Biggest downfall of the iATM, though, is they're expensive.  As in twice the cost of the standard ATM.  That's a problem because, with the standard missile launchers, Streak SRMs are cheaper than Artemis-equipped launchers...but I suspect the reason is because the standard cost multiplier for Streak isn't used with the Streak LRMs.  Standard Streak SRMs cost 50% more than a non-Streak SRM, but the Clan Streak LRMs cost more than double a standard LRM...which means once you hit the LRM-10 or higher an Artemis IV launcher is actually cheaper.

And that becomes a factor for the larger launchers.  The iATM-9 is only slightly cheaper than an Ultra AC/20, but significantly lower in BV.  The iATM-12 is the most expensive weapon, more expensive than a HAG-40...& nowhere near as destructive (even with the HE ammo).  The only thing they have going for them is their flexibility with ammo, but the standard ATMs get that as well.

Personally, I think a merc or House coming up with an IS version of the standard ATM is a better way to go, as it would give the MMLs a run for their money.  But since the chances of an iATM even being seen in the Inner Sphere is pretty much nil (flat out says that only the Society ever built them, & no way any of the Clans that fled the Homeworlds would have salvaged enough off the battlefield to have them in significant numbers; not even sure the Homeworld Clans would actually use them, since again only the Society built them).

Scotty

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Cost is fake and trying to divine any meaning from it is the road to madness.
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Scotty

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The full workup will be tomorrow but the general trend is rough parity (ATM advantage 8-17%) in the middle base TNs (combination of Skill + AMM + TMM = 6-8), a sharp upswing as TNs get easier (ATM advantage 37% at TN5+) that I expect to be continued, and I suspect but will confirm that the LRMs will take the advantage at base TN 9 or 10 and hold onto it through 11 but lose it again on 12s where the ammo damage multipliers overcome low odds all around.
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Church14

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ATM12 compares roughly in terms of mass, crits, tons of explosive crits, BV, and average damage at point blank or longer ranges to an LRM15, 2 tons LRM ammo, 2 SRM6, and one ton of SRM ammo.

I’m not sure why people think ATMs are bad. They are comparable to other clan missiles. That said, I know I took people thinking they were crap at face value until I looked at the actual details.


As for iATMs in the sphere? No. On every level, no.
- Plot wise, from what I’ve heard they were only introduced because the HW were expected never to be heard from again. They were meant to be wunder weapons in a dead end story.
- mech lethality is already plenty high. I don’t like how fragile mechs feel in alpha strike. I like the vibe of mechs having to grind each other down.
- because clan wolf is going to get them no matter who invents them, and they’ll be the only ones to field more tech that they didn’t invent in big numbers.

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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If we were just talking about lethality that's one thing, but mag pulse warheads are almost as broken as the max tech ones.


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