Hardened Armor: Yes or No?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, I'd say that the Hitotsume Kozo is a much better model of what you can do with Hardened Armor on a lighter chassis.  Though mixing the HPPC with TSM and a hatchet was an odd choice.

[Scotty]

At face-cleaving range you're still more accurate than at long range.

That or just shoot someone else.  Literally anyone else.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Actually, if you've got TSM running you're the same accuracy as if you were at long range.  Still doable, though.

[Scotty]

If you have the TSM on the range penalty doesn't change.  If you're suggesting that you wouldn't have TSM active at long range, why the blazes not?  ???  That 8th run MP is the difference between requiring a straight line to get to +3 and having any sort of actual maneuverability at all to get the same +3.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you have TSM active, you've got a +1 to weapon attacks from heat.  Combine that with the +3 minimum range penalty, you're looking at the same target numbers you'd need to make the attack at long range if you're running cool, +4.

[Col Toda]

Tried a few experiments . The one that worked well enough to mention was something of a niche unit . I call it the an urban variant of the 9Q Awesome .  It went 4/5 had 4 Snub-Nosed PPCs which saved 4 tons had Endo Composite internal Structure which saved 2 tons lost the ECM and small laser for another 2 tons with these 8 tons I gave it a 320 XL engine and 20 Double Heat Sinks . This used up all the critical Spaces and to use up the remaining tonnage I had to use Hardend Armor as the only means of using it up . Distribution of armor I made leg armor thin reasonong it would habitually take partial cover . The results playtested well . An enemy turns a corner in a city finds the hidden Awesome 9 hexes away blasting it every turn . The road ahead is filled with rubble it gets ugly quickly . The Snub-Nosed PPCs 9 short range is optimal in city fighting . No it by no means has max armor just condtionally a little more than a standard 9 Q where it counts . Because it has a bigger engine it walks faster and runs just as fast as the standard 9Q.  Put The IS crits in legs , center torso and head . Have yet to try to remove a SN-PPC and 4 DHS to bring the Armor closer to Max the flywheel fire power seems to be decisive . It is still an evolving experiment . Feel free trying it yourself .
 

[Weirdo]

Who remembers which part of the forum ALL customs belong in? C:-)

[mbear]

I've fallen in so much love with the Commando Freyr.  Yeah I miss that extra run point, but it can jump to compensate.

Question: Hardened armor reduces running MP by 1. Improved Jump Jets can provide jump mp equal to running MP. For a Commando with hardened armor, is the maximum IJJ jump MP 8 or 9?

And I really, really think if I was a MechWarrior I'd shave off a ton of standard armor to plate my 'Mechs head with Hardened armor. Even if I just use 8 points (one ton) I'm suddenly able to survive a Gauss Rifle hit to the head.

[iamfanboy]

Who remembers which part of the forum ALL customs belong in? C:-)

Yes, I understand, but... the problem is that no official designs use Hardened Armor well, thus failing to show its real potential. The Rokurokubi is OKAY, but even with TSM it's hard to justify a melee weapon on a light. Yes, it's a MWDA design, so constrained space, but the point still stands.

It's like the TRO3050 Catch-22: The official designs are terrible, but we can't discuss how to realistically retcon them with something like a "TRO 3050 Field Refits", because no one goes to fan designs and you mods CAN be a touch heavy-handed at times.

Though... other recent threads... do seem to deserve the locks. Seriously, keep it civil and on topic (which I am bad at times for not doing, I know!)

Really, with Hardened you don't need to go to max possible armor - which violates a lot of internalized design rules, but it's necessary. 120%, or even 150% in extreme cases, is MORE than enough armor to keep you in the fight long after anyone else is toast without compromising your ability to carry armament.

[Weirdo]

Customs belong only in the Fan Designs forum. No exceptions. You wan to post a custom, put it there, then put a link to it in this thread. It's that simple.

[RoundTop]

Advanced designs with Hardened armor:

Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro

Experimental:

Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH

[Luciora]

XTRO Commando Freyr and the Great Turtle belong in this list too.

Advanced designs with Hardened armor:

Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro

Experimental:

Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH

[Luciora]

I would assume it's equal to the original run speed, but that might need to be a rules question.  Even with clantech, IJJs would be detrimental to what makes it a Commando.  At least to me.

Question: Hardened armor reduces running MP by 1. Improved Jump Jets can provide jump mp equal to running MP. For a Commando with hardened armor, is the maximum IJJ jump MP 8 or 9?

And I really, really think if I was a MechWarrior I'd shave off a ton of standard armor to plate my 'Mechs head with Hardened armor. Even if I just use 8 points (one ton) I'm suddenly able to survive a Gauss Rifle hit to the head.

[Colt Ward]

Advanced designs with Hardened armor:

Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro

Experimental:

Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH

Also forgetting the Mad Cat MK II Enhanced . . . I LOVE that thing

[RoundTop]

I was trying to post non-unique designs, so I excluded the S7 units like the Turtle and Hatchiwara, and named ones like the Freyr

That said, I missed the MCmkII-E. oops. Most of the clan designs that flagged as CR (crit resistant) were using Ferro Lamellar armor, so I skipped them.

[chaosticket]

The Viking IIC is another one with Hardened Armor.

Okay the question is Is Hardned Armor worth using. Yes and no is the Question and the Answer. There are different kinds of armor with downsides compared Standard Armor. Hardened is general purpose with some more minor problems and one Achilles Heel.

I would say yes its worth using, but more because youve already stacked on Endo-Steel, and probably an Extralight Engine. So youre trading space for weight, and then using Hardened Armor to trade weight for additional protection.

The published ones are all right but for me I see Hardened Armor working best with Energy Weapons. They have the lowest weight even accounting for Heat Sinks. Its easy to modify something like an Awesome or more likely a Clan mech with very heavy armor and Energy weapons. It would be a kind of "zombie mech" even with an Extralight Engine as you could maximise armor on the torso.

Overall I like Hardened Armor because its not a "maybe" with a specific target its effective against and bad against everything else. Its basically the NextGen of Armor. Its just a shame that their is such a Lethal Joke weapon like the Re-Engineered Laser to ruin your day. Still so long as you use Hardened armor to increase the overall protection to more than 1-1 you still are highly effective against 99% of the game weapons and even then your Achilles Heel would only be so-so if you have 75-100% Hardened Armor Points.

[RoundTop]

The Viking IIC is another one with Hardened Armor.

Okay the question is Is Hardned Armor worth using. Yes and no is the Question and the Answer. There are different kinds of armor with downsides compared Standard Armor. Hardened is general purpose with some more minor problems and one Achilles Heel.

I would say yes its worth using, but more because youve already stacked on Endo-Steel, and probably an Extralight Engine. So youre trading space for weight, and then using Hardened Armor to trade weight for additional protection.

The published ones are all right but for me I see Hardened Armor working best with Energy Weapons. They have the lowest weight even accounting for Heat Sinks. Its easy to modify something like an Awesome or more likely a Clan mech with very heavy armor and Energy weapons. It would be a kind of "zombie mech" even with an Extralight Engine as you could maximise armor on the torso.

Overall I like Hardened Armor because its more a "maybe" with a specific target, its basically the NextGen of Armor. Its just a shame that their is such a ridiculously powerful Lethal Joke weapon like the Re-Engineered Laser to ruin your day. Still so long as you use Hardened armor to increase the overall protection to more than 1-1 you still are highly effective against 99% of the game weapons and even then your Achilles Heel would only be so-so if you have 75-100% Hardened Armor Points.

And RE-lasers are weighty. A Medium RE is 2.5t, for 6 damage, 6 heat. 3/6/9, -1 to hit.  So you can't mount too many of them.

[Brakiel]

Overall I like Hardened Armor because its more a "maybe" with a specific target, its basically the NextGen of Armor.

I'd argue Ferro-Lamellor is the "NextGen" of armor. It's 87.5% the points per ton of Standard, but offers >= 20% more protection. It completely stops LBX cluster, halves SRMs, and stops armor piercing effects similar to Hardened. Other than the crit space requirements, it has no drawbacks. Plus it can be used in Omni construction, unlike Hardened.

[Colt Ward]

I agree . . . and wonder when we will get a HH vehicle using it or a Raven ASF, they get even more benefit from crit protection.

[chaosticket]

Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.

Lamellor armor is Okay if a nightmare on math to argue about its reduction, but at most it gives a 20% bonus to defense for 12 slots. On smaller mechs where you have excess slots but not enough weight, that is fine, but at the same time...well Stealth Armor also exists.

Hardened Armor is when you are #1 wanting to increase your armor point by 50-100% and #2 you have tonnage but not space. Heavy-Assault types get more use out of it, but its still possible to make Light-Mediums into Roach/Zombie Mechs.

[marcussmythe]

Hardened armor always seeme to be a marriage made in heaven for the quads.  Quars already suffer from pitiful internal space, and get a piloting bonus to offset the piloting malis of the heavy armor.  Couple with the ease of going hull down, throw on some smoke... you could get something very well suited to moving from one firing position backwards to another, and use the extra hardiness (paid for by reduced firepower) to fix an opposing force long enough to flank/airstrike/artillery.

[Scotty]

Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.

LBX pellets hit in groups of 1 damage each.  They are completely reduced by Ferro-Lamellor.

[Sartris]

Weapons reduced to zero damage effects by Ferro-Lamellor Armor (such as LB-X cluster munitions), may not inflict pilot injury in the event of a cockpit-location hit, nor may they deliver a penetrating or “floating” critical from special hit location rolls.

they definitely do

[Empyrus]

Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.

Ferro-Lamellor explicitly reduces LB-X pellets to 0 point.
Says so in TacOps, says so in BattleMech Manual.

The basic rule for the armor is pretty unambiguous in itself:
"Ferro-lamellor armor reduces all damage by 1 point for every 5 points (or fraction thereof) delivered per hit."

EDIT Interestingly BMM omits "to a minimum of 0 points" but that is presumably because that statement is not really needed.

[Wrangler]

One thing is certain to me, that Harden Armor is a god send for Armored vehicles.  Even if your not using those optional vehicles rules (from TacOps) for the crits for them. Thankfully Harden Armor doesn't slow down a combat vehicles vs a Mech mounting the stuff.

Couple examples are:
The Von Luckner's VNL-X71 Yakuza variant his hilariously evil one. A Crime Tank with 30 tons of Harden Armor, going 3/5 with LBX-20.  I only say hilariously since it's tank used for crime gangs.  Doing a driveby the slow way.

More mainstream, NK-1C Narukami Heavy Tank and it's variant. Same tonnage of Harden armor and speed, but it's packing gauss and two ppcs, while the Boost-C3 variant has twin gauss rifles and single ppc.   

[chaosticket]

I agree . . . and wonder when we will get a HH vehicle using it or a Raven ASF, they get even more benefit from crit protection.

the Von Luckner VNL-X71 Yakuza
Narukami Assault Tank
some more

LBX pellets hit in groups of 1 damage each.  They are completely reduced by Ferro-Lamellor.

Well thanks, I double checked. heh, Lb-x are the only cluster weapon I know of that has that problem. So was Lamellor just made specifically the be Immune to Lb-x cluster or was that an oversight?

[Retry]

Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.

Lamellor armor is Okay if a nightmare on math to argue about its reduction, but at most it gives a 20% bonus to defense for 12 slots. On smaller mechs where you have excess slots but not enough weight, that is fine, but at the same time...well Stealth Armor also exists.

Hardened Armor is when you are #1 wanting to increase your armor point by 50-100% and #2 you have tonnage but not space. Heavy-Assault types get more use out of it, but its still possible to make Light-Mediums into Roach/Zombie Mechs.

As everyone else has already said, F-L can reduce shots to 0 damage.

The math isn't too bad.  F-L just reduces any hit by 1 point every 5 points.  A hit of 1-5 goes down 1 point, a hit of 6-10 goes down 2 points, and so on.

That also means that 20% bonus is actually a minimum, not a maximum.  At worst that medium laser pointed at your head will "only" reduce its firepower to 80% of its original, from 5 to 4 pts.  But at its best you can eliminate oncoming damage completely (LB-X pellets being the most obvious case).

Stealth armor and F-L are of two different philosophies.  Stealth makes you harder to hit at long and medium ranges, but at the cost of heat and it doesn't work at short ranges, requires an ECM suite to work, is incompatible with a lot of other neat technologies like C3 and Targeting Computers (and Artemis FCS?) while F-L applies to (almost) any damage you take regardless of the situation making it less niche and more useful and versatile as front-line armor.

It probably wasn't intended *specifically* to nullify LB-Xs specifically, but I don't think it's an oversight either, just a perk.

[Weirdo]

Well thanks, I double checked. heh, Lb-x are the only cluster weapon I know of that has that problem. So was Lamellor just made specifically the be Immune to Lb-x cluster or was that an oversight?

To my knowledge, the devs haven't said. It's possible neither of those is true.

[klarg1]

I'd argue Ferro-Lamellor is the "NextGen" of armor. It's 87.5% the points per ton of Standard, but offers >= 20% more protection. It completely stops LBX cluster, halves SRMs, and stops armor piercing effects similar to Hardened. Other than the crit space requirements, it has no drawbacks. Plus it can be used in Omni construction, unlike Hardened.

I tend to agree.

Ferro-Lamellor is the first real defensive game changer in a very long time, in-Universe.

[Empyrus]

Stealth makes you harder to hit at long and medium ranges, but at the cost of heat and it doesn't work at short ranges, requires an ECM suite to work, is incompatible with a lot of other neat technologies like C3 and Targeting Computers (and Artemis FCS?)

Active C3 or Artemis don't work with active Stealth Armor because the 'Mech is treated as if under enemy ECM field so C3 and Artemis IV/V stop working. But you can disable Stealth to make use of those, at least one Raven variant is clearly built with this kind of ambushing in mind.
Targeting Computers do work with Stealth Armor. They do not work with Null-Signature System, which is also incompatible with C3 systems (neither can't be present with NSS), never could figure out this one unless the idea is the TarComp does rely on active scanning along with whatever else it does to add accuracy.

Not sure what happens with Boosted C3 and Stealth Armor, since the former is only cut off by Angel ECM but Stealth Armor does not specify what kind of ECM effect active Stealth Armor should be. I would assume Boosted C3 does not work with Stealth Armor, at least that is likely the intent.