Author Topic: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...  (Read 22852 times)

Biggles Antilles

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #30 on: 31 July 2013, 08:48:18 »
The universe is decided logically and arbitrarily by authors.

But so is history. Not just writers. Leaders are the authors of our world. Alexander, charlemagne. Ghengis khan, julius ceasar, bismark, frederick the great, ghandi, etc wrote some pretty crazy stuff.

This guy gets it. Life is one crazy story, and if we just take a narrow slice of figures (in)famous enough for us to know about and look at how much trouble they're inclined to get themselves in then you worry for the wider human population.
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rebs

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #31 on: 31 July 2013, 18:21:00 »
Fiat has always been in the hands of the historian, we shouldn't kid ourselves about that.

In this case, the authors are the historians.  But they get their picture of events from the developers, who are also writers. 

Complaining about authorial fiat is nothing more than complaining that the story didn't go the way one hoped and/or thought it would, or should, go.  It's a matter of taste.  Crying fiat is simply a way of shoring up one's side of a disagreement about taste with wishful thinking. 

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #32 on: 31 July 2013, 18:38:27 »
I think author fiat can be called out in certain situations but overall, I would say it is a lot less common than what a lot of people scream about.

As to real life.....life is stranger than fiction.
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Tokage

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #33 on: 31 July 2013, 19:02:55 »
I'm a firm believer that life is truly more amazing than fiction.

However, fiction tends to focus on individuals, whereas life/history covers every single person alive. So yes, bizarre and incredible things do happen in real life, things that in fiction would seem too implausible - despite having sometimes actually happened to people.

The thing is fiction, because it's focused, can rarely rely on such aberrant events, or risks becoming 'implausible' if it does.

Also, just because real history contains incredible or shocking/surprising events, does not excuse author fiat  that flies in the face of previously established canonical consistency. Especially not when there is a clear factional bias at work.

In the BT setting, for example, prior to the 4SW there was no canonical evidence to support that the FS could wage a war as quick and crushing as the 4SW against the CC. There just wasn't. Even were the FS able to muster enough JumpShips - which is highly doubtful - the CC military in early pre-Stackpole canon for the late 3SW era were shown to be generally quite successful and efficient. They certainly were not portrayed to be a paper tiger ready to fall. Also taking planets that quickly was not possible - even Kuritas 1SW steam roller into the FS moved much slower, over the course of many years. That's what we mean by author fiat - an overturning over the established rules of a setting, just because the author wants one side to win quickly.

I've personally never understood why tptb wanted a goody-two-shoes invincible white hat faction in BT. That wasn't the case originally, and easy victories do not generally make for interesting stories.
« Last Edit: 31 July 2013, 19:05:10 by Tokage »
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Tokage

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #34 on: 31 July 2013, 19:09:08 »
Fiat has always been in the hands of the historian, we shouldn't kid ourselves about that.

In this case, the authors are the historians.  But they get their picture of events from the developers, who are also writers. 

Complaining about authorial fiat is nothing more than complaining that the story didn't go the way one hoped and/or thought it would, or should, go.  It's a matter of taste.  Crying fiat is simply a way of shoring up one's side of a disagreement about taste with wishful thinking.

This guy gets it. Life is one crazy story, and if we just take a narrow slice of figures (in)famous enough for us to know about and look at how much trouble they're inclined to get themselves in then you worry for the wider human population.

The ultimate success is that people care enough to debate about it. Its a fictional universe that allows you to choose a faction and be invested in it. There is no way to avoid people claiming that the arbitrary way the story is advanced by authors isnt based on favoritism. We want our factions to win. To do well. Im not a huge fan of people who call fiat but thats because its a poor debate crutch and used to defend some pretty weak points.

The universe is decided logically and arbitrarily by authors.

But so is history. Not just writers. Leaders are the authors of our world. Alexander, charlemagne. Ghengis khan, julius ceasar, bismark, frederick the great, ghandi, etc wrote some pretty crazy stuff.

I only call author fiat when they change the rules of the setting to allow their fictional Alexanders to achieve their amazing victories.

Alexander's army moving at foot and horse speed for example would be fine in a fictional ancient history setting. His covering established distances far faster than has been previously established as possible, then teabagging the Emperor of China ... that would be fiat.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #35 on: 31 July 2013, 19:11:37 »
Sounds like a particularly deadly Dynasty Warriors super move.
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rebs

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #36 on: 31 July 2013, 20:06:29 »
No doubt.  But there's a difference between bent rules and broken ones.  The instances of out-and-out poor writing decisions like that are few and isolated. 
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #37 on: 31 July 2013, 22:17:19 »
really who had the most fiat? Mruphy or Sgt York?

Lawrence of Arabia?

Carlos Hathcock?

Dick Marchinco?

rebs

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #38 on: 31 July 2013, 22:32:27 »
Hemingway's abuse of fiat manifested in a horse falling on Robert Jordan's leg in For Whom the Bell Tolls.  :-)  

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Kitsune413

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #39 on: 31 July 2013, 22:56:25 »
Lawrence of Arabia?

Carlos Hathcock?

Dick Marchinco?

Id go with richard marchinco. That guy is way too breathing for the amount of times his chutes dont deploy.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #40 on: 01 August 2013, 01:05:58 »
I'll back Ataturk on this one.
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bytor

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #41 on: 01 August 2013, 02:18:12 »
I think author fiat can be called out in certain situations but overall, I would say it is a lot less common than what a lot of people scream about.

I agree, and I would take some people a bit more seriously if they stopped screaming "author fiat" every time something doesn't go their way in fiction.


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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #42 on: 01 August 2013, 02:48:16 »
In my completely random study of the use of the term "author fiat", results show that at least 3/4 of the time "author fiat" means "you violated my personal feelings of entitlement".

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #43 on: 01 August 2013, 02:50:08 »
In my completely random study of the use of the term "author fiat", results show that at least 3/4 of the time "author fiat" means "you violated my personal feelings of entitlement".

LOL! That sounds about right.


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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #44 on: 01 August 2013, 05:52:28 »
I'm a firm believer that life is truly more amazing than fiction.

However, fiction tends to focus on individuals, whereas life/history covers every single person alive. So yes, bizarre and incredible things do happen in real life, things that in fiction would seem too implausible - despite having sometimes actually happened to people.

The thing is fiction, because it's focused, can rarely rely on such aberrant events, or risks becoming 'implausible' if it does.

Also, just because real history contains incredible or shocking/surprising events, does not excuse author fiat  that flies in the face of previously established canonical consistency. Especially not when there is a clear factional bias at work.

In the BT setting, for example, prior to the 4SW there was no canonical evidence to support that the FS could wage a war as quick and crushing as the 4SW against the CC. There just wasn't. Even were the FS able to muster enough JumpShips - which is highly doubtful - the CC military in early pre-Stackpole canon for the late 3SW era were shown to be generally quite successful and efficient. They certainly were not portrayed to be a paper tiger ready to fall. Also taking planets that quickly was not possible - even Kuritas 1SW steam roller into the FS moved much slower, over the course of many years. That's what we mean by author fiat - an overturning over the established rules of a setting, just because the author wants one side to win quickly.

I've personally never understood why tptb wanted a goody-two-shoes invincible white hat faction in BT. That wasn't the case originally, and easy victories do not generally make for interesting stories.

Go back to the WW2 scenario.  Even if Germany could muster the forces necessary for that rapid a campaign, France had always been shown pre History Channel as quite successful and efficient.  Then author fiat and suddenly they're totally beaten in 4 weeks.
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Tokage

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #45 on: 01 August 2013, 15:50:22 »
Go back to the WW2 scenario.  Even if Germany could muster the forces necessary for that rapid a campaign, France had always been shown pre History Channel as quite successful and efficient.  Then author fiat and suddenly they're totally beaten in 4 weeks.

I think that's absurd. There are clear tactical reasons why the French army (which was set up for static defence) was defeated by the Germans at that time - there are no clear tactical reasons for the conquest of the CC. We were simply told (suddenly) they were a crappy military, when that had not been the case prior to the Warrior Trilogy. They were smaller in numbers, but were shown to beat HD in late 3SW at least as often as they lost.

I am not one of these strange posters who favours one or other faction, I just like consistency. Also I didn't like the way HD seemed invincible suddenly, seemingly due to some kind of moral decency as much as anything else. It was not a good way for a morally grey setting to head. Indeed it led to many another metaplot mess that came after. IMHO.

But, we're heading into well trod territory, so I'll agree to disagree and bow out of this one.
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Davout73

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #46 on: 01 August 2013, 16:52:35 »
The End of the 3rd Succession War in game time is 1920 IRL.  A massive war has just been fought to a grinding halt, and both sides have tons of data on how the war was fought, what was successful, what was unsuccessful, and both sides are using that hard earned data to prepare for the next war.

The Capellans are the French.  They say "This is how the war was fought last time, this is how we won last time, and this is how we prepare to fight the next time.  But instead of building a Maginot line they deploy in trip lines, expecting an attack, and expecting to reinforce an attack from the interior.  As the 3rd SSW wound down, you did not have the massive military movements that characterized the 1st SSW, and it was the strategy that worked for them.

The Davion are the Germans.  They looked at the last war, they study the data and outcomes, and they say "We aren't going to fight the last war, we're going to fight the next war."  Both sides have the same data, but they each draw a different conclusion, a conclusion that is validated by what they learned the last time they fought.

Cue to 1940/3028.  The Tactical problem is this:  There's a huge fortified line in front of you/Your enemies deployment is built to take advantage of his interior lines of reinforcement.  So, what do you do?  In 1940 you send the Panzers lancing through the Ardennes; in 3028 you have multiple units hitting individual units, overwhelming then before the reinforcements can arrive, and then attacking again.  Yes, in a standup one on one fight, your average Capellan is better than your average Davion.  That's why you send two or three (or four) Davions each time your attacking. 

The Capellans weren't a crappy military, anymore than France was a crappy military in 1940.  They were just unprepared to fight the way they needed to in order to win, and once attacked, were not given the chance to recover.

Also, the fact that Davion was willing to ruin his economy by appropriating jumpships and had an ally who was distracting his other opponent had a lot to due with the successes in the CC.

Dav

I think that's absurd. There are clear tactical reasons why the French army (which was set up for static defence) was defeated by the Germans at that time - there are no clear tactical reasons for the conquest of the CC. We were simply told (suddenly) they were a crappy military, when that had not been the case prior to the Warrior Trilogy. They were smaller in numbers, but were shown to beat HD in late 3SW at least as often as they lost.

I am not one of these strange posters who favours one or other faction, I just like consistency. Also I didn't like the way HD seemed invincible suddenly, seemingly due to some kind of moral decency as much as anything else. It was not a good way for a morally grey setting to head. Indeed it led to many another metaplot mess that came after. IMHO.

But, we're heading into well trod territory, so I'll agree to disagree and bow out of this one.
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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #47 on: 02 August 2013, 00:59:13 »
"Reality...you can't make this **** up...."
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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #48 on: 02 August 2013, 14:26:33 »
I think that's absurd. There are clear tactical reasons why the French army (which was set up for static defence) was defeated by the Germans at that time - there are no clear tactical reasons for the conquest of the CC. We were simply told (suddenly) they were a crappy military, when that had not been the case prior to the Warrior Trilogy. They were smaller in numbers, but were shown to beat HD in late 3SW at least as often as they lost.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #49 on: 02 August 2013, 16:57:00 »
What are your sources? And when you talk about the Fourth Succession War, do you derive it only from the Warrior Trilogy, or have you actually read NAIS The Fourth Succession War Military Atlas too?
there were lots of factors that lead up to Davion curb stomping Laio.  That does not fall into author fiat

1 davion built up and concentrated their military, and hired lots of mercs to further expand their "effective" forces
2 they pulled "wargames" enough in the years preceding the attack that when they said "its just more wargames" people believed them.
3 Davion deliberately swamped the laio defenders, if it looked like laio had a company they dropped a battalion to a regiment on it.
4 they moved faster than anyone thought they could. They also dropped heavy forces on the "tripwire forces" and then dropped heavy forces on the reaction forces ALSO (in many cases before they could even respond to the "tripwire" calls for help.

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #50 on: 02 August 2013, 17:36:27 »
5. They inserted two spies into top Capellan intelligence positions.
6. The Confederation was controlled by megalomaniac.
7. The assault relied on tactics whose repercussions - such as JumpShips far from their normal routes - lasted through the Jihad; in some ways, the very thing that allowed the Federated-Commonwealth alliance to jump to such strong and early gains was also its downfall.
8. The Confederation, it should be pointed out, survived and has since taken back its lost territory and then some.

No, the Fourth Succession War was reasonable and rather realistic.
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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #51 on: 02 August 2013, 17:48:28 »
9 forces that normal be use in the draconis march were instead use for the invasion leaving Lyran and Wolf dragoon forces to handle Kurita. 

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #52 on: 02 August 2013, 18:20:34 »
10.  They were trusting in information provided by a traitorous March Lord who was trying to play both Houses against each other so he could take over.

Kitsune413

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #53 on: 02 August 2013, 21:30:06 »
11. Justin Allard and Jack Burton killed maximillian liao on sian, rescued candace liao and escaped with the use of sabotaged triple strengh myomers And their dropship the porkchop express!

some of this post is a fabrication.
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Biggles Antilles

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #54 on: 03 August 2013, 08:47:07 »
some of this post is a fabrication.

Nothing wrong with a vivid imagination!
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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #55 on: 03 August 2013, 13:17:50 »
Of course, machine guns did shoot the appropriate range in WWII, iirc.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #56 on: 03 August 2013, 19:34:54 »
Of course, machine guns did shoot the appropriate range in WWII, iirc.

As they did in Battletech.

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #57 on: 04 August 2013, 06:23:26 »
As they did in Battletech.

Holy smokes boys! That's it no more dipping my toe I am getting back into BattleTech!  ;D
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Kitsune413

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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #58 on: 04 August 2013, 08:15:09 »
Holy smokes boys! That's it no more dipping my toe I am getting back into BattleTech!  ;D

Oh ive been waiting for an opportunity to use that trap ♥

 ;D
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Re: Everytime I hear someone complaining about "author fiat"...
« Reply #59 on: 05 August 2013, 09:18:41 »
9 forces that normal be use in the draconis march were instead use for the invasion leaving Lyran and Wolf dragoon forces to handle Kurita.

Herein is where I actually start to side with the fiat crowd.  The monumental failures of DC and FWL during the 4th SW make the CapCon's beating possible.  I can only blame Stackpole so much.  The Dragoons were "handling" the most feared military in the Inner Sphere while the Lyrans.... the Lyrans took advantage.  Say what you want about the build up to beat the CapCon.  The Dragoons being able to hamstring the entire DCMS?  That has never sat well with me.

- there are no clear tactical reasons for the conquest of the CC. We were simply told (suddenly) they were a crappy military, when that had not been the case prior to the Warrior Trilogy. They were smaller in numbers, but were shown to beat HD in late 3SW at least as often as they lost.

I'd need to check the release schedule from days of yore, but the House Laio book makes it clear that the CCAF exists in a perilous state.  The CapCon had been beaten down until it was small enough to shift troops around to counter enemy invasions without tremendous delay.  Hence the whole elastic defense approach.  So much of their strategy was based around delaying actions and defense, followed by counterattack that once the first was overwhelmed, the second couldn't kick off.

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