Author Topic: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got! (Read 162737 times)

Colt Ward · « **Reply #1320 on:** 22 August 2018, 14:04:22 »

I would like to see a new post-Reunification variant that has a bit more long range emphasis while still following the lay out . . . and maybe supply. Maybe a ERPPC or ERLL, for flavor kicks ATM12? from the Foxes, some VSP or X-Pulse for the close in?, and for electronics maybe a BAP?

GespenstM · « **Reply #1321 on:** 22 August 2018, 14:07:46 »

Let's presume the following conditions:

Anzu G60 is the attacking unit, with 30 rounds UAC/10 ammo and a +5 Piloting, +4 Gunnery default pilot at the controls.

Opponents are a mix of lyrans and Klingons, everything from a thunder hawk to a Fenris so the movement-based modifiers they post can be anywhere from +0 to +4.

The Anzu can be walking or running for +1 or +2 BTH on its attacks, whichever makes the math easier to parse.

Game length... I'm honestly willing to let you determine that one. I've had games run from 3 rounds to 40. Granted, the 3-rounders were things like a lyran player stumbling headlong into my Kopis ambush and then saying "call it" the moment his nightsky got legged. The 40 rounders were a lot of sieging an entrenched foe to convince them to come out. So I'm willing to run whatever game length you feel is best.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't mind seeing another variant either. The Anzu's art is fun and its mission role is an important one.

Scotty · « **Reply #1322 on:** 22 August 2018, 18:17:52 »

I play with Direct Blow in my games, which generates a +Cluster bonus when you roll well on the to-hit (every 3 MOS gets you a... +2, I think?), so generally speaking I start double-tapping on 9s when it's possible for a spectacular hit roll to pump up the odds of getting the second shell to land.

Your target matters significantly, too. The decision on whether to double-tap (at least mine) hinges significantly on whether a potential additional 10 point hit has a meaningful chance of crippling the target.

GespenstM · « **Reply #1323 on:** 22 August 2018, 20:33:44 »

Interesting. I'm not too familiar with that rule, but interesting.

I ended up trying to run my own math, but wound up somewhat off-topic. What I discovered was the J70 does notably more damage at almost every range bracket. Granted, its range brackets are 3 hexes shorter than the Anzu G60... but in return, it has no minimum range. The damage increase is high enough that I'm no longer convinced the J70 is 'just' a mountain/city fighter (though it excels at both, notably so)... I'm willing to call it outright better than the base model for the vast majority of purposes, with the notable exception of Semi-Guided LRM use.

The loss of range hurts, but the extra damage it does (plus the inclusion of the fantastic Snub-Nose PPC) is enough to push it to where I now consider the J70 the primary Anzu and the G60 a variant. This might not be technically true, but it feels that way to me. This actually satisfies the matter; I'm inclined to accept the Anzu J70 as one of our main purpose heavies alongside the TDR-10M. One with some notable weaknesses, but it's still an upgrade to the unit it's effectively replacing (the Tempest).

Deadborder · « **Reply #1324 on:** 23 August 2018, 02:04:37 »

There is never a bad time for Snub Nose PPCs. I may be a bit biased.

Weirdo · « **Reply #1325 on:** 23 August 2018, 08:42:56 »

Out of curiosity, where is this supposed RAC math? Usually when I see someone trying to math a topic into submission, it means all entertainment value has been leached out of the thread and I close the tab without reading.

Sartris · « **Reply #1326 on:** 23 August 2018, 10:38:30 »

Quote from: Deadborder on 23 August 2018, 02:04:37

There is never a bad time for Snub Nose PPCs. I may be a bit biased.

I endorse this opinion

I don't have anything particularly against the G60 though I favor the J70 because of the aforementioned snub and my general dislike of ultra acs in sizes smaller than 20.

Quote from: Weirdo on 23 August 2018, 08:42:56

Out of curiosity, where is this supposed RAC math? Usually when I see someone trying to math a topic into submission, it means all entertainment value has been leached out of the thread and I close the tab without reading.

this is my life philosophy toward math in general

GespenstM · « **Reply #1327 on:** 23 August 2018, 11:02:19 »

Quote from: Weirdo on 23 August 2018, 08:42:56

Out of curiosity, where is this supposed RAC math? Usually when I see someone trying to math a topic into submission, it means all entertainment value has been leached out of the thread and I close the tab without reading.

So wait, you're asking for the math then indicate the math will make you leave? This sounds like a 'cannot actually succeed in the conversation with you' scenario.

Honestly, your 'look down on anyone for trying to improve their quality of play at a competitive game' schtick is getting pretty tiring.

Please do close the tab and go away.

Kidd · « **Reply #1328 on:** 23 August 2018, 11:28:54 »

Well I don't care for the RAC math myself, I just operate by the usual rule of thumb - 1, 3 or 5 shots, the lower the THNs the better.

RACs being unjammable are much more forgiving than UACs.

MarauderD · « **Reply #1329 on:** 23 August 2018, 11:46:11 »

I know I'm biased towards the Dakka, but a single RAC-5 with back up weapons like the Anzu has is more forgiving than putting all your eggs in one basket.

I've played quite a few games with the Rifleman 8D, and I've had both RACs jam on "hits on a 5" situations. That can be a real downer.

Conversely, when using the TDR-9NAIS, which has 3 mediums and a Streak6, you can still put out some damage while waiting for the "unjamming" turn to present itself.

RACs are fun, but that is subjective and I know not everyone agrees with me on that.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #1330 on:** 23 August 2018, 11:51:02 »

Rifleman at least has ERML . . . lol, the standard Legionnaire? -SOL big time.

Kidd · « **Reply #1331 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:06:15 »

IMHO a RAC generally puts out enough dakka that it's worth ducking it somewhere out of the line of fire and unjamming it ASAP.

Is the J70 the only FWL Mech to carry one tho?

Sartris · « **Reply #1332 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:15:04 »

Quote from: Kidd on 23 August 2018, 12:06:15

Is the J70 the only FWL Mech to carry one tho?

Shockwave, Orion MD, Perseus P

Colt Ward · « **Reply #1333 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:21:09 »

Wasn't there a light that had a RAC/2 as well?

And inter-factional fighting! It really is the League in here!

GespenstM · « **Reply #1334 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:30:48 »

RAC5s are fun and effective. We really can have both. The era of every good design needing to be 16 DHS with 2x ERPPC and 6x ERML (or a similar array involving Gauss Rifles) is drawing to a close. Variant armor opens up so much design space in this game, and now the 'best' designs will also be the ones with the most flavor and variety to them. The Shockwave is an excellent example. The Orion 2M and 3M are also very good. The Anzu J70 also falls into the 'at least decently playable' tier; it has significant flaws, but none are outright crippling.

You want Mechs to have meaningful damage output of at least two different types (where the three types are 'energy', 'ballistic', and 'missile'). The Juliano has good to stellar damage in two of the three. The various Inner Sphere Market Mad Cats have two of the three. Even the Carronade marginally qualifies (and its shortcomings in this field are compensated for by the fact it is very good against aerial units), as do our Archer 8M and 9M.

Once Reflective Armor becomes more common on mass production units, along with Blue Shield, we're going to begin thinking of energy boats as 'specialists who need teammates' with good and bad matchups, instead of being optimal. I've said it a lot, and it's going to require more TRO products taking advantage of this before it's our game reality, but I look forward to seeing it happen. Imagine a game where the Hellstar is valuable but not unquestionably best-in-class at its job, because some common enemies take half damage from all its guns. That would be a very good thing.

Colt Ward · « **Reply #1335 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:41:47 »

I already consider all energy sub-optimal because I play with all sorts of alternate munitions and never bought into the 'Mercs use flashbulbs to be cheap!' idea. Its part of the reason I prefer SRMs over SSRMs and while I enjoy the reach or damage of ATMs . . . MML might be a better overall system.

Weirdo · « **Reply #1336 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:48:30 »

Quote from: GespenstM on 23 August 2018, 11:02:19

So wait, you're asking for the math then indicate the math will make you leave? This sounds like a 'cannot actually succeed in the conversation with you' scenario.

No, I'm saying that usually kills my interest, but the RAC bit has piqued my interest. And I have no issue with people trying to play with tournament-level effectiveness, as long as tournaments and that style of play never interferes with playing for fun.

Weirdo · « **Reply #1337 on:** 23 August 2018, 12:52:17 »

Quote from: Colt Ward on 23 August 2018, 12:41:47

I already consider all energy sub-optimal because I play with all sorts of alternate munitions and never bought into the 'Mercs use flashbulbs to be cheap!' idea. Its part of the reason I prefer SRMs over SSRMs and while I enjoy the reach or damage of ATMs . . . MML might be a better overall system.

Energy boats ceased being optimal the moment Tech Manual was published. Infantry ensured the Hellstar and its ilk would never reign supreme long before that mech was released. It's nasty, yes, but it was never a monster.

GespenstM · « **Reply #1338 on:** 01 September 2018, 00:41:57 »

I've been wondering about something... namely, how common clan-tech is among various factions in the current era.

How much clan-tech do FWL regiments typically field? What about the lyrans? And perhaps more importantly, the ~~klingons~~ wolves? Are they fielding full galaxies of front-line omnis?

Sartris · « **Reply #1339 on:** 01 September 2018, 01:10:54 »

FM3145 has Omni vs second line ratios for clan galaxies. Only their most elite formations have 100% omnis

GespenstM · « **Reply #1340 on:** 01 September 2018, 08:50:02 »

Yeah, just glanced through there. Seems like they're not fielding much Inner Sphere tech in any case outside of single individuals doing so here and there?

My avatar line (roughly "If I fight against Wolf 'Mech forces, I will be forced to use a 'Mad Cat Mk. IV'") feels more fitting every day.

Minemech · « **Reply #1341 on:** 01 September 2018, 09:38:41 »

I am worried, without Andurien Aero, has the Free Worlds League lost its maritime power status? That was one of the defining features of the League. The League does retain the Illium yards, but I have no information on their activities.
That said, could the Marians be in check because Alphard is so vulnerable?

Colt Ward · « **Reply #1342 on:** 01 September 2018, 10:03:04 »

Westover

Minemech · « **Reply #1343 on:** 01 September 2018, 10:49:51 »

I guess the League retained a critical facility, but the facility on Andurien must be reclaimed. There are several important factory worlds lost, including Shiro III, that need retaking.

Wrangler · « **Reply #1344 on:** 01 September 2018, 23:40:33 »

Quote from: Minemech on 01 September 2018, 10:49:51

I guess the League retained a critical facility, but the facility on Andurien must be reclaimed. There are several important factory worlds lost, including Shiro III, that need retaking.

High likelness that Audurien will be merged with a Liao-super state at rate things are going.

GespenstM · « **Reply #1345 on:** 02 September 2018, 00:54:10 »

Yeah, Andurien's already fielding a decent number of Liao Mechs. I'd say it's a fair trade, we got the Clan Protectorate in return.

On a side note, has anyone had success using the N13M Grand Titan in an open field battle? Like, plains and low hills and so on, instead of cities or mountains. If so, what circumstances made it work out well for you? I've been trying to warm up to it ever since I realized I'm okay with the N10M in its era and remain quite fond of the N11M even in present era. Would love to make good on the N13M too.

worktroll · « **Reply #1346 on:** 02 September 2018, 05:28:25 »

Remember, the 13M is a commander's ride. It's not really optimised for open battle - it's optimised for keeping the pilot alive. If your 13M is in combat, then either something's badly wrong, or your commander is blithely assured of his own invincibility.

Al-Hawad wasn't the Marik Hogarth, but he would have laughed at the comparison. ;)

That said, it makes a decent bodyguard 'Mech for Stalker IIs, and other range-oriented combatants. If you're firing at the 13M you're not stopping the firepower, and if you get too close to the fire support the 13M has a handy shank.

GespenstM · « **Reply #1347 on:** 02 September 2018, 10:19:14 »

Oh, I agree that open plains battle is not its mission role. I'm nonetheless curious if anyone has made it work because this thing is obviously a durable command platform and it's also a good city and mountain fighter... and arguably not too bad at forest battles either. I like it in those roles.

Making it work in open field battle against the ~~klingons~~ wolves has eluded me so far though, they all seem well suited to staying 13+ hexes away from it and making it really hard for the N13M to hit anything. The combination of pilot skill disparity plus speed disparity plus range disparity all adds up to a bit of a problem in that specific regard.

That said, even they had to put in a fair amount of work actually killing the thing so it definitely succeeds at the 'shrug off anything other than a headcapper shot and keep going for quite some time' role it's meant for. I get what it's meant to do, just trying to see how much work we can wring out of it in other contexts. The Juliano has largely supplanted the N10M and N11M in their mission roles, so I'm trying to branch out and see what else we can accomplish with this sweet-looking chassis.

Scotty · « **Reply #1348 on:** 02 September 2018, 15:06:42 »

The answer to "how do I use this mech that's not good at X so that it is good at X?" is "don't, use it to do something else".

In an open field fight, find somewhere else to fight. Trying to shove a square block in a star-shaped hole isn't a matter of figuring out which way to twist it to make it fit.

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #1349 on:** 02 September 2018, 15:16:32 »

Quote from: Wrangler on 01 September 2018, 23:40:33

High likelness that Audurien will be merged with a Liao-super state at rate things are going.

I actually have this sneaking suspicion that Ilsa Centrella-Liao is building her own power base separate from Daoshen, and the Anduriens and whichever other states she can rope in will be part of that.