A Question about MechWarrior 2nd Edition

[VictorMorson]

Hi everyone, we decided to run a game and went with the simplified, older 2nd Edition.  There are plans to upgrade to 3rd Edition, mostly because everyone in our group cannot stand A Time Of War for a wide number of reasons, first and foremost being how complicated many of the checks get and how obtuse the actual book is (I would kill for them to put out a 5th edition, I feel like AtoW was written at BattleTech's lowest pre-Dark Age point creatively.)

But that out of the way, we've been hitting some serious issues with the rules and it's caused some issues.

Effectively, the book suggests that some things be handled by a contested check.  Among them is Stealth, which is called out as an example even, though in another spot it suggests simply adding a modifier for 'the number of people present,' which seems meant for evading crowds and not in combat.

Now here comes the problem:  Modifiers.  They suddenly becomes absolutely ridiculous on a 2D6 system and results in this as an example:

 Infiltrator (TN3) makes a Stealth check and gets 4 MoS.  They then add +3 from Smoke and +4 from a Sneak Suit.
 Guard (TN3) must now make a perception check with a modifier that's +11 (impossible) on a pretty middling MoS sneak success.

It simply does not seem like the system was meant for contested checks in a combat situation.  There's nothing like that for anything but grappling (which is understandable) elsewhere.  But because it calls it out, I have players who absolutely firmly believe that it's supposed to work like that, even if it means someone should be nearly impossible to spot on a bad success and completely impossible on a moderate one.

It's completely breaking the game entirely in my opinion.  I know House Rules are an option, but I am trying to find out if anyone has any idea if it's even supposed to be like this.  2D6 systems can't handle these kind of modifiers IMO without entirely breaking the game.  Has anyone had any experience with this issue?  It is steadily recurring problem and it's created some absolutely terrible combats.

[Daryk]

Best of luck with 3rd edition... I suspect your group may find AToW a refreshing return to 2d6 after that.

[VictorMorson]

Best of luck with 3rd edition... I suspect your group may find AToW a refreshing return to 2d6 after that.

Out of curiosity, how does 4th Edition handle this?

Do they allow Stealth MOS to be placed on top of the other modifiers to be able to notice a target?

[five_corparty]

Hi everyone, we decided to run a game and went with the simplified, older 2nd Edition.  There are plans to upgrade to 3rd Edition, mostly because everyone in our group cannot stand A Time Of War for a wide number of reasons, first and foremost being how complicated many of the checks get and how obtuse the actual book is (I would kill for them to put out a 5th edition, I feel like AtoW was written at BattleTech's lowest pre-Dark Age point creatively.)

But that out of the way, we've been hitting some serious issues with the rules and it's caused some issues.

Effectively, the book suggests that some things be handled by a contested check.  Among them is Stealth, which is called out as an example even, though in another spot it suggests simply adding a modifier for 'the number of people present,' which seems meant for evading crowds and not in combat.

Now here comes the problem:  Modifiers.  They suddenly becomes absolutely ridiculous on a 2D6 system and results in this as an example:

 Infiltrator (TN3) makes a Stealth check and gets 4 MoS.  They then add +3 from Smoke and +4 from a Sneak Suit.
 Guard (TN3) must now make a perception check with a modifier that's +11 (impossible) on a pretty middling MoS sneak success.

It simply does not seem like the system was meant for contested checks in a combat situation.  There's nothing like that for anything but grappling (which is understandable) elsewhere.  But because it calls it out, I have players who absolutely firmly believe that it's supposed to work like that, even if it means someone should be nearly impossible to spot on a bad success and completely impossible on a moderate one.

It's completely breaking the game entirely in my opinion.  I know House Rules are an option, but I am trying to find out if anyone has any idea if it's even supposed to be like this.  2D6 systems can't handle these kind of modifiers IMO without entirely breaking the game.  Has anyone had any experience with this issue?  It is steadily recurring problem and it's created some absolutely terrible combats.

That seems like a situation where the players have done everything right to ensure they don't get seen: a "regular" player would only get the 4, +3 if they threw the smoke. Which, not to belabor it, is why you throw the smoke. hahaha
But, as my instructors took pains to remind us, smoke doesn't stop bullets and smoke works both ways: they'll never see the grenade coming. ;-) hahaha

I think, yes, you hit on exactly one of the reasons that 2nd edition was abandoned.  that said, I'd see this as a way to be creative: they're guards, and they have ONE job: perhaps they roll 3d6 and take the top 2? perhaps they have a MUCH higher TN because, again, they have ONE job: unlike player characters with their gazillion skills, guards have one skill, but they are VERY GOOD AT IT.

That's the way I'd work around it, personally: I'd raise the threat level of the situation. the more goodies the good guys get, they harder you have to make the baddies.

Good luck, though! always had a sweet spot in my heart for that edition and those books!

[VictorMorson]

That seems like a situation where the players have done everything right to ensure they don't get seen: a "regular" player would only get the 4, +3 if they threw the smoke. Which, not to belabor it, is why you throw the smoke. hahaha
But, as my instructors took pains to remind us, smoke doesn't stop bullets and smoke works both ways: they'll never see the grenade coming. ;-) hahaha

I think, yes, you hit on exactly one of the reasons that 2nd edition was abandoned.  that said, I'd see this as a way to be creative: they're guards, and they have ONE job: perhaps they roll 3d6 and take the top 2? perhaps they have a MUCH higher TN because, again, they have ONE job: unlike player characters with their gazillion skills, guards have one skill, but they are VERY GOOD AT IT.

That's the way I'd work around it, personally: I'd raise the threat level of the situation. the more goodies the good guys get, they harder you have to make the baddies.

Good luck, though! always had a sweet spot in my heart for that edition and those books!

Oh I definitely appreciate the feedback!  And I've done that already; I get a ton of flak as GM for having TN 3s & 4s on the guards.

Biggest problem is a sneaksuit + IR Smoke is a +7 base, then even before you add Stealth vs Perception MOS difference, you're talking a TN10.  With even 3 MOS difference, you're at TN13 and the players have Edge to make sure that doesn't happen much.  Do you know how later editions handle it?  Do they do the contested MOS on top of the normal bonuses or just use the combat modifiers (like movement, concealment, equipment, etc?)

[paladin2019]

You're in a sneak suit, that's yer problem right thar.

Seriously, you're talking about sneak suits. They are doing the thing they're supposed to do. A couple of points. To get the +4 mod to the observer's Perception roll, you have to be at long range. It's a +2/+3/+4 staged modifier. You also have to be in or in front of concealment. The suit can't copy the sky/horizon so it doesn't help if you are standing in the open. Infiltrating sounds a lot like close range. Smoke doesn't require a Perception roll. In throwing smoke, Infiltrator has failed to infiltrate in spectacular fashion. The guard knows with certainty someone's trying to do something and will respond accordingly.

[ANS Kamas P81]

IIRC a Sneak Suit is something for conventional infantry, and Infiltrator BA don't use them.  So that eliminates that modifier there.

[five_corparty]

Oh I definitely appreciate the feedback!  And I've done that already; I get a ton of flak as GM for having TN 3s & 4s on the guards.

Biggest problem is a sneaksuit + IR Smoke is a +7 base, then even before you add Stealth vs Perception MOS difference, you're talking a TN10.  With even 3 MOS difference, you're at TN13 and the players have Edge to make sure that doesn't happen much.  Do you know how later editions handle it?  Do they do the contested MOS on top of the normal bonuses or just use the combat modifiers (like movement, concealment, equipment, etc?)

Uggh, I -think- they just use the modifiers, not sure.  I never actually played 3rd edition or AToW. :-(

[Hellraiser]

I agree w/ Paladin on this.

If a cloud of smoke appears it's time to call for back up.

I actually agree w/ the modifiers because "LongRange + SneakSuit + SmokeField" should be hard to see them.

But there is a world of difference between hitting them w/ a rifle & knowing someone is in there.

When 1-2 guards turns into a platoon of response that starts throwing Flash-Bangs they won't be having so much fun.

At the very least, if they can see smoke, I'd immediately allow them a 2nd Perception check w/ a bonus to it for "focus" as they search closely for any movement/shadows in the smoke.

Smoke would only be a good idea if you were staging 2 attacks, 1 diversion & then the Sneak Suits so they come in from the edges and there is already smoke in the air.

Otherwise a random smoke grenade defeats the whole point of "sneaking".

[Dahmin_Toran]

Best of luck with 3rd edition... I suspect your group may find AToW a refreshing return to 2d6 after that.

That Life Path can be unforgiving. I remember a PC rolling for a Aerospace Pilot. He got into a horrible crash during training losing multiple limbs, washed out of pilot training, and became a homeless vagabond. We had to reroll a new character.   

[Daryk]

Not as bad as Traveller, but then, what is? ;D

[Dahmin_Toran]

Not as bad as Traveller, but then, what is? ;D

Fate worse than death.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

That Life Path can be unforgiving. I remember a PC rolling for a Aerospace Pilot. He got into a horrible crash during training losing multiple limbs, washed out of pilot training, and became a homeless vagabond. We had to reroll a new character.

When you wanted Kenny Loggins and Danger Zone but got Metallica and One instead.

[Horsemen]

Out of curiosity, how does 4th Edition handle this?

Do they allow Stealth MOS to be placed on top of the other modifiers to be able to notice a target?

In short you do a standard check for the Perception of those observing and a Stealth check for those trying not to be noticed. Modifiers are applied to the TN as appropriate. You then compare the results with whomever has the higher MoS the one who wins the opposed test.

I am a big fan of both MW3/CBT RPG and AToW. I enjoyed the use of 2d10's in the former and an oft missed rule was you could spend your Edge maximum to modify results or even get into a life path you normally don't qualify for. Though this edge limitation could and did impact things in long running campaigns.

AToW opposed checks are the same but use a 2d6 system.