Author Topic: New and Upcoming Releases, Vol. VII: Center Torso hit! (Read 186258 times)

RoundTop · « **Reply #120 on:** 11 July 2016, 16:46:01 »

Quote from: bobthecoward on 11 July 2016, 16:30:20

Weird question from someone that has never been really into minis for any game....what "resolution" are plastic and metal minis to? If you had a home 3d printers 3d modeling skills, and time to run it overnight, would it be more detailed than what is on the market? Would it be noticeable?

I don't understand how much detail is in a mass market product or home created product.

short answer: there is no common "resolution" that is easy to explain, but no it will never be more detailed unless you increase the scale. it would be very noticable.

In SOME high end 3D printers (commercial style) it is possible to get the level of detail of plastic minis, but even those are hit and miss, and the cost in plastic and machine time is higher than buying.

Here is someone 3D printing warhammer minis with a good 3D printer. Notice the horizontal lines. Each of those is a pass of the printer. You can't get smaller detail than a pass. Have a good look at the faces, and notice how washed out the details are. Panel lines are not a thing in 3D printing (unless you cut them yourself).

http://imgur.com/TQPyvlO

bobthecoward · « **Reply #121 on:** 11 July 2016, 16:48:51 »

For the record, I have no 3d printer nor 3d modeling skills nor interest. But on a random day I learned about layer height and width of home printing while completely having no idea what "20 nanometers" means for a game miniature.

RoundTop · « **Reply #122 on:** 11 July 2016, 17:12:22 »

Quote from: bobthecoward on 11 July 2016, 16:48:51

For the record, I have no 3d printer nor 3d modeling skills nor interest. But on a random day I learned about layer height and width of home printing while completely having no idea what "20 nanometers" means for a game miniature.

Those resolutions and nomenclature only exist for 3D printers, which is why it isn't really comparable. And there are different technologies for 3D printers too to confuse things further. 3D printers use a material and then use a depositing system (some use just glue and air, others lasers, UV light, etc) to build layers a certain thickness, then build up layer by layer. This may also require the use of bracing (to be cut off later) to hold it while printing. It takes several hours for a single figure at a medium resolution (all differ). All 3D printed objects then have to be treated afterwards, depending on material I have heard of acid baths, sanding, isopropyl alcohol.

No matter what, 3D printed figures will be more delicate / prone to break than metal or injection moulded plastic of the same item.

In pewter casting (IWM), a mould is made out of steel from a master miniature (prototyped in 3D, sculpted, and finalized), and is then the mould is spun while melted pewter is added. This gets it into every crevase. Where the two sides of the mould meet you can get flashing (the little lines). If the sides aren't exactly aligned, this can cause the offset flashing you sometimes see on metal minis. The tags are locations where the pewter was fed in. This is considered gravity fed.

For plastics a sprue is designed and a large mould is created, typically this is around 4-12 different miniatures, though it can vary. Plastic is heated to very specific temperatures and injected under pressure into the mould via the sprues. The heat, pressure, and polymer used all go into the amount of detail it can hold, how flexible it is (or brittle), and so on. Again though, it all comes down to the sculpt detail. good sculpt = good detail (as long as you use the right plastic). the better quality and larger, the most expensive the materials.

Feenix74 · « **Reply #123 on:** 11 July 2016, 22:22:05 »

If my memory serves me correctly, metal spin casting (as used by IWM to produce pewter BT minis) uses a rubber mold while plastic injection molding (as used by CGL to do the plastic minis from the Intro Box Set and the Lance Packs) use a steel mold.

klarg1 · « **Reply #124 on:** 11 July 2016, 22:36:06 »

Quote from: Feenix74 on 11 July 2016, 22:22:05

If my memory serves me correctly, metal spin casting (as used by IWM to produce pewter BT minis) uses a rubber mold while plastic injection molding (as used by CGL to do the plastic minis from the Intro Box Set and the Lance Packs) use a steel mold.

Correct, although, to add another wrinkle:

The steel plates for injection molding are not normally made from 3D printed masters, but from the digital files, or from a 3D scan of a traditionally sculpted master. That means the end resolution depends on the machining process that cuts the die from the steel, not your 3D printer.

On the flip side, spin-cast metal molds are made from a physical master, which may be 3D printed, since they can't be made directly from a digital file - the rubber has to be poured around something. 3D prototypes usually sometimes get quite a lot of cleanup to resolve print resolution issues before the master mold is made to help with that problem.

Hooray for technology!

RoundTop · « **Reply #125 on:** 11 July 2016, 23:14:39 »

In the old days of the 2000s, before 3D printing was as much of a thing, there was a post on LOTB about making the Mad Cat resculpt. It was almost all green stuff and clay. From this a silicone mould was made (low temperature), then a resin mini was cast from this which could withstand high heat. It was cleaned up and more detail added, then the proper mould for pewter was made from this master. I can't find the post anymore sadly, but it was neat seeing all the stages laid out.

Feenix74 · « **Reply #126 on:** 12 July 2016, 01:25:52 »

I missed so much good stuff during my short sabbatical from BT (2000-2012) :'(

I am still trying to play catch up.

Sharpnel · « **Reply #127 on:** 12 July 2016, 01:46:29 »

Short? That's nearly a quarter of my lifetime

Feenix74 · « **Reply #128 on:** 12 July 2016, 02:13:25 »

It is just more than 1/4 of my lifetime too. I am just glad to be back now that career and instant family commitments have receded a little bit. Time flies when you are having fun . . .

Cache · « **Reply #129 on:** 12 July 2016, 09:24:30 »

Quote from: RoundTop on 11 July 2016, 23:14:39

In the old days of the 2000s, before 3D printing was as much of a thing, there was a post on LOTB about making the Mad Cat resculpt. It was almost all green stuff and clay. From this a silicone mould was made (low temperature), then a resin mini was cast from this which could withstand high heat. It was cleaned up and more detail added, then the proper mould for pewter was made from this master. I can't find the post anymore sadly, but it was neat seeing all the stages laid out.

He used metal intermediates similar to Hubbuch. Found it for ya.

*Warning! Occasional NSFW language*
http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10253

Atlas too: http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12419

bobthecoward · « **Reply #130 on:** 12 July 2016, 12:10:20 »

Waiting on legends Tuesday. Hopefully it is twilight of the clans.

RoundTop · « **Reply #131 on:** 12 July 2016, 12:24:38 »

Quote from: Cache on 12 July 2016, 09:24:30

He used metal intermediates similar to Hubbuch. Found it for ya. http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10253

Atlas too: http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12419

Thats the one I was thinking about. And posted in 2004. Over a decade ago. Wow.

Cache · « **Reply #132 on:** 12 July 2016, 16:50:03 »

Quote from: RoundTop on 12 July 2016, 12:24:38

Thats the one I was thinking about. And posted in 2004. Over a decade ago. Wow.

I was relieved to see that he posted the pics as attachments (LOTB server). We've lost so much great information and eye-candy to obsolete off-site hosting. :-\

ph423r · « **Reply #133 on:** 12 July 2016, 17:01:13 »

Quote from: Cache on 12 July 2016, 09:24:30

He used metal intermediates similar to Hubbuch. Found it for ya. http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10253
Atlas too: http://www.lordsofthebattlefield.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12419

Would anyone have any info or stats on the Mk1 Clan Mech stats that get mentioned in the first link?

Cache · « **Reply #134 on:** 12 July 2016, 17:06:20 »

Quote from: ph423r on 12 July 2016, 17:01:13

Would anyone have any info or stats on the Mk1 Clan Mech stats that get mentioned in the first link?

They're a myth. Best answer I could find was that maybe they were the stats used for the original Virtual World OmniMechs.

mrbooth · « **Reply #135 on:** 12 July 2016, 17:42:45 »

Is there going going to be a legends release today?

ColBosch · « **Reply #136 on:** 12 July 2016, 21:13:36 »

Quote from: ph423r on 12 July 2016, 17:01:13

Would anyone have any info or stats on the Mk1 Clan Mech stats that get mentioned in the first link?

As Cache said, they're a hoax. Two CGL freelancers physically went through the FASA archives and found no mention of them, even in the earliest drafts for TR3050. Someone invented stats they felt better matched the art/minis, and tried to pass them off as "official."

ANS Kamas P81 · « **Reply #137 on:** 12 July 2016, 21:55:37 »

Did they look through FASA 1628, the Comstar book? Just wondering, that might have been left out of the search. ;D

I know we had a lot of fun with the ISP series for the Jihad. As far as upcoming products go, will there be anything more like those? I can see a bunch of opportunities for Starling's theories around Stone, the Wall, the Republic and whatnot.

Mech42ace · « **Reply #138 on:** 12 July 2016, 22:44:02 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 11 July 2016, 07:58:06

Remaing Unseen: Stinger, Stinger LAM, Wasp LAM, Phoenix Hawk LAM, Scorpion, Ostroc, Ostsol, Rifleman, Crusader, Longbow, Goliath, Marauder II, Galleon Light Tank, all TR3055 second-line Clan 'Mechs, and the TR3058 ComStar/WoB 'Mechs.

Personally as far as clan second line machines, I'm really looking forward to seeing the Griffin IIC only to have a mini that looks similar to the unseen.

VhenRa · « **Reply #139 on:** 13 July 2016, 02:36:38 »

Honestly... that thing looks more like a refugee from Gundam.

BrokenMnemonic · « **Reply #140 on:** 13 July 2016, 02:59:54 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 12 July 2016, 21:13:36

As Cache said, they're a hoax. Two CGL freelancers physically went through the FASA archives and found no mention of them, even in the earliest drafts for TR3050. Someone invented stats they felt better matched the art/minis, and tried to pass them off as "official."

Do you happen to remember roughly when the freelancers went through the archives? I don't doubt you, I'm just curious, as I've heard odd stories about early OmniMech discrepancies for years.

SCC · « **Reply #141 on:** 13 July 2016, 04:07:23 »

Quote from: ColBosch on 12 July 2016, 21:13:36

As Cache said, they're a hoax. Two CGL freelancers physically went through the FASA archives and found no mention of them, even in the earliest drafts for TR3050. Someone invented stats they felt better matched the art/minis, and tried to pass them off as "official."

Someone once linked me to a site that claimed that they appeared in a magazine months before the Clans where revealed else where, as a sort of trial run, said site ALSO said that said magazine was used as evidence in FASA Vs. HG

Liam's Ghost · « **Reply #142 on:** 13 July 2016, 04:34:42 »

Quote from: SCC on 13 July 2016, 04:07:23

Someone once linked me to a site that claimed that they appeared in a magazine months before the Clans where revealed else where, as a sort of trial run, said site ALSO said that said magazine was used as evidence in FASA Vs. HG

Problem being nobody can produce said magazine. All accounts tend to boil down to "I saw it once," or "Someone I knew once had a copy".

I seem to recall that Catalyst for their part has stopped short of calling it an outright hoax, and has even said they'd love it if someone could locate an actual copy of the supposed magazine, BUT, they also seemed as certain as possible that it doesn't exist.

ColBosch · « **Reply #143 on:** 13 July 2016, 04:54:28 »

I seem to recall someone did find a copy of the issue of Stardate, and it had nothing about the Clans in it.

Quote from: BrokenMnemonic on 13 July 2016, 02:59:54

Do you happen to remember roughly when the freelancers went through the archives? I don't doubt you, I'm just curious, as I've heard odd stories about early OmniMech discrepancies for years.

My memory is fuzzy these days, but it had to have been close to a decade ago, when the Mk I Omni story got big in the community. I know the gentlemen who did the search, and trust their word.

Karasu · « **Reply #144 on:** 13 July 2016, 06:13:48 »

I found something that seemed a bit odd in the Mech availability in Combat Manual Kurita (it may also have been in Mercenaries, but I don't have mine handy).

The Assassin ASN-21 is marked as being a General, but rare design in the Late Succession Wars.
The Assassin ASN-23 is marked as being a General, but not a rare design in the Early Clan Invasion.

As I understand it ASN-23s are field refits of ASN-21s using some rediscovered tech. How, in that case, are there more 23s than 21s?

RoundTop · « **Reply #145 on:** 13 July 2016, 07:27:43 »

Comstar. :)

And some mechs were mothballed due to unavailable parts, which the clan invasion Era they had parts again. See the mongoose. Almost extinct until comstar came back out and the clans hit.

cavingjan · « **Reply #146 on:** 13 July 2016, 07:40:34 »

The ASN-23 went into production but I'm not sure when.

Stinger · « **Reply #147 on:** 13 July 2016, 07:41:22 »

Quote from: bobthecoward li itnk=topic=53485.msg1234931#msg1234931 date=1468272620

Weird question from someone that has never been really into minis for any game....what "resolution" are plastic and metal minis to? If you had a home 3d printers 3d modeling skills, and time to run it overnight, would it be more detailed than what is on the market? Would it be noticeable?

I don't understand how much detail is in a mass market product or home created product.

I can answer this!

Most "cheap" 3D printers cannot produce anywhere near the quality of IWM minis. Some of the highest end consumer grade models can. I personally use a Form 1+ printer and when it prints at .05mm resolution, it can look near IWM quality. At .025mm it does look IWM quality. But there is a big but. All 3D printers that are consumer grade need support material to print. This support material leaves substantial distortion and marks on the rear of the minis. It can look pretty terrible.

Source: I am a 3d sculptor for IWM and I 3d print Prototypes for all of my minis.

nckestrel · « **Reply #148 on:** 13 July 2016, 07:57:54 »

Quote from: Karasu on 13 July 2016, 06:13:48

I found something that seemed a bit odd in the Mech availability in Combat Manual Kurita (it may also have been in Mercenaries, but I don't have mine handy).

The Assassin ASN-21 is marked as being a General, but rare design in the Late Succession Wars.
The Assassin ASN-23 is marked as being a General, but not a rare design in the Early Clan Invasion.

As I understand it ASN-23s are field refits of ASN-21s using some rediscovered tech. How, in that case, are there more 23s than 21s?

Quote from: cavingjan on 13 July 2016, 07:40:34

The ASN-23 went into production but I'm not sure when.

Production wasn't until 3067. So yeah, for the early clan invasion it should still be rare.

mbear · « **Reply #149 on:** 13 July 2016, 07:59:08 »

Quote from: Karasu on 13 July 2016, 06:13:48

I found something that seemed a bit odd in the Mech availability in Combat Manual Kurita (it may also have been in Mercenaries, but I don't have mine handy).

The Assassin ASN-21 is marked as being a General, but rare design in the Late Succession Wars.
The Assassin ASN-23 is marked as being a General, but not a rare design in the Early Clan Invasion.

As I understand it ASN-23s are field refits of ASN-21s using some rediscovered tech. How, in that case, are there more 23s than 21s?

Easy. All existing ASN-21s in service were refitted to the ASN-23 standard.

Edit: Actually I found a different explanation in TRO:3050

Quote from: TRO:3050, p. 34

In late 3067, Hellespont ’Mech Works...expressed interest in acquiring the Assassin as a test-bed platform. Distracted by ... the Jihad and ... Maltex quickly agreed and gave Hellespont full control over the design.
Though Hellespont began building several Assassin platforms for research and development, they also began mass-producing the -23 variant for the CCAF and various Capellan militias.