Author Topic: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors  (Read 34345 times)

Farnsworth

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #30 on: 12 March 2015, 20:21:00 »
Could a primitive mech find maintenance on a D-F world where a modern mech would have trouble?

RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #31 on: 12 March 2015, 20:34:43 »
Could a primitive mech find maintenance on a D-F world where a modern mech would have trouble?
Primitive mechs are built with 22nd century technology instead of 25th century technology.  So if the world can manage 21st or 22nd century technology at all I'd rule it could find maintenance though it's a personal ruling rather than looking it up in the rules.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #32 on: 12 March 2015, 21:31:43 »
I would also think that a Vulcan might be a mech to have.  I mean if you might be that lone gunman, you might be facing off against forces of Vees and Infantry only.  Also from what i remember of the 1st edition of Mechwarrior and Mercenary books, repairs on an AC were much lower than repairs on a PPC or Large Laser.

cray

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #33 on: 13 March 2015, 20:37:45 »
I would also think that a Vulcan might be a mech to have.  I mean if you might be that lone gunman, you might be facing off against forces of Vees and Infantry only.  Also from what i remember of the 1st edition of Mechwarrior and Mercenary books, repairs on an AC were much lower than repairs on a PPC or Large Laser.

On the other hand, it uses cash for ammo faster than an energy weapon needs repairs.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #34 on: 13 March 2015, 23:13:42 »
So, how do these modern-day hired guns get by?

A bigger question might be how errant mechs get created in the first place.  Armies are usually loathe to allow a major piece of military equipment to walk off (or be secreted out of) a base, nevertheless launched offworld and jumped into the unknown Periphery.  And it's hard to see how a mechwarrior who owns his ride and is rich enough to afford interstellar shipping to a very out-of-the-way world would choose to spend his riches on the errant lifestyle in retirement.  Even if seeking solace from PTSD, setting oneself up to take on annual bandit raids singlehandedly seems like a bad way to deal with the psychological scars of warfare. 

I think it's more likely that errants are forced into that lifestyle rather than choosing it.  Mechwarriors who are left behind on a world due to retreat or accident and with no other way to make a living seems like a more probable source of errants.  But even this will be a rare event.

So aside from a very few eccentric and rich and a few very desperate mechwarriors, it's hard to see how errants come to exist in the first place.

But these are problems throughout the btech universe.  It's also hard to explain many mercenary, family, and gladiatorial mechs.  So handwaving the origins questions away and going with the romance of the errant mechwarrior for a moment...

I'd assume that without the backing of a military logistical train, that an errant mech will run out of usable ammo in a matter of years.  Even if the errant mechwarrior brings a large store of ammunition with him, high-grade explosives tend to degrade with time and his ammo will become dangerous to handle or turn into dummy rounds (or both).  There are no rules for this, but unless chemistry works differently in the btech universe, it's unavoidable.  This may also be true for other consumables like coolants and lubricants, depending on their composition.

The exception to this would be if the local militia uses some of the same heavy weapons and equipment on their combat vehicles, field guns, or emplacements.  If the militia has vehicles, autocannons, missile racks, and heat sinks, then the errant may be able to leverage their supply of lubricants, ammo, coolants, etc.

If the militia doesn't have the same heavy weapons, then it may also be possible to modify the errant mech to use what the militia does field.  Specifically trading RLs (maybe MRMs) for LRMs and SRMs and maybe rifles for autocannons.  Hopefully there's enough heavy machinery requiring the right lubricants regardless, but the absence of heat sinks on-world and a source of their coolants might pose a limiting problem.

Even if they can leverage militia ammo and consumables (or industrial consumables), I'd also assume that errant mechs can't get by for very long before suffering the kind of permanent damage that showed up in the TO&Es in the old Succession Wars-era scenario packs.  Things like a non-functional heat sink, a stuck actuator, sensor impairment, an improperly aiming weapon, and structural failure that reduces armor capacity (even when repaired) in a particular section of the mech.  Even if the errant mech sees no combat, it will be a matter of years before certain components to wear out from fatigue or the environment.  Seals will fail, optics will go out realignment, electronics will short out, fasteners will oxidize, reactor structures will suffer neutron bombardment, etc.  When they do, some malfunctions may be resolved with jury-rigging but others will be irreparable without replacement components and the right tools to install them.

So to sum up, to realistically portray an errant mech, I'd say it has to be able to tap into militia supplies or at least supplies for local heavy machinery.  An errant will not last long protecting an Amish village.  An errant mech may also have some modifications to accommodate the weaponry and ammo that is available locally.  And an errant mech is probably also suffering from one or more permanently malfunctioning components.

At least, that's what I would do if I was GMing a campaign with an errant.  Anything less is either a newbie errant or unrealistic, IMO.

Quote
What kind of 'Mechs are best suited for the job, and how much could your average world do to keep them operating?

As others have already stated, assuming the errant has a choice, he'll want a relatively well armored and mobile generalist that relies mostly on energy weapons to reduce the ammo problem.  But realistically, an errant is not going to last long without some militia supply chain or semi-modern industrial base to leverage, and even then, the errant mech may require modifications and will probably suffer long-term malfunctions.

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idea weenie

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #35 on: 14 March 2015, 16:48:21 »
A long-ranged energy weapon, Large laser or PPC.  This is to allow the mechwarrior to engage at range without worrying about running out of ammo.  If PPC, I expect a brace of medium lasers to handle minimum range issues.

RL/10 - for when they need a massive punch vs armor.  The nice part is the reloads can likely be created from a Periphery world tech base.  Reloads might be fast too, allowing a Mech to shoot and scoot.

A supply of I-beams, or similar solid items that could be used for melee combat.  The mechwarrior knows where they are, the attackers don't.

Commercial armor?  24 pts of armor per ton, but taking criticals from anything hitting with 6+ pts of damage might be worth it.  So Mechs with less than max armor might replace some of it with Commercial, and boost their coverage.

For spare parts, everything will cost *10 or higher.  Remember the comment about creating Clan tech gear in Inner Sphere, and how it could only be made in a lab at an obscene price?  Same thing goes for regular Mech parts on a Periphery world, so the Mechwarrior will be well-connected with the local government, to ensure the spare parts keep flowing.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #36 on: 14 March 2015, 17:53:33 »
Yeah, even with the BAR rating, commercial armor would probably be a big boon to a lot of lights, or to 'Mechs like the Rifleman or JaegerMech.
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SCC

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #37 on: 14 March 2015, 21:15:03 »
The exception to this would be if the local militia uses some of the same heavy weapons and equipment on their combat vehicles, field guns, or emplacements.  If the militia has vehicles, autocannons, missile racks, and heat sinks, then the errant may be able to leverage their supply of lubricants, ammo, coolants, etc.

If the militia doesn't have the same heavy weapons, then it may also be possible to modify the errant mech to use what the militia does field.  Specifically trading RLs (maybe MRMs) for LRMs and SRMs and maybe rifles for autocannons.  Hopefully there's enough heavy machinery requiring the right lubricants regardless, but the absence of heat sinks on-world and a source of their coolants might pose a limiting problem.
I think you got some of this backwards. And despite what Herb says there's plenty of evidence that suggests that Infantry SRM's, LRM's and MRM's are the real deal

RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #38 on: 14 March 2015, 23:35:02 »
It's all a result in changes in the setting slowly creeping in over years.  As a group of people try to make BattleMechs more akin to the late-generation fighters they want to think of them as rather than the armored fighting vehicles they were originally envisioned as.  Notice how maintenance requirements slowly but steadily went up, they emphasized need for parts as being special that were never made a fuss about before, assumed that mech units would need larger and larger teams of techs and astechs per mech.

Just ignore them and go back to the foundation of the setting, they want you to play the game their way but remember you can just ignore them and play it your way.
One does not just walk into Detroit

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #39 on: 14 March 2015, 23:44:00 »
It's all a result in changes in the setting slowly creeping in over years.  As a group of people try to make BattleMechs more akin to the late-generation fighters they want to think of them as rather than the armored fighting vehicles they were originally envisioned as.  Notice how maintenance requirements slowly but steadily went up, they emphasized need for parts as being special that were never made a fuss about before, assumed that mech units would need larger and larger teams of techs and astechs per mech.

Just ignore them and go back to the foundation of the setting, they want you to play the game their way but remember you can just ignore them and play it your way.
I don't know that it's so much a sinister plot to impose a specific vision as it is the gradual move away from "beer & pretzels" to a more highly detailed and realistic setting.  It makes perfect sense that a fusion-powered walking war machine from centuries in the future would be more technologically advanced and complicated than anything we have today.  Battlemechs should be fantastically more complicated than armored vehicles or modern combat aircraft.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #40 on: 15 March 2015, 00:42:10 »
I think you got some of this backwards. And despite what Herb says there's plenty of evidence that suggests that Infantry SRM's, LRM's and MRM's are the real deal

I didn't mention infantry missiles one way or the other.  But since you bring it up, I'd probably say that infantry missiles can be fired from mech/vehicle launchers.  But infantry missile launchers can't substitute for mech/vehicle missile launchers.

FWIW...

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

blackjack

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #41 on: 15 March 2015, 00:43:16 »
What time frame?? Good stand alones Thunderbolt 5SE /9SE. Phoenix Hawks, wolverine 6m,  grasshopper 5n :o) Many more! I would go with a Griffin 6S or Shadowhawk 3K
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SCC

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #42 on: 15 March 2015, 01:07:26 »
I didn't mention infantry missiles one way or the other.  But since you bring it up, I'd probably say that infantry missiles can be fired from mech/vehicle launchers.  But infantry missile launchers can't substitute for mech/vehicle missile launchers.

FWIW...
MW3 explicitly stated that infantry SRMs all full size ones, and the stats for SRMs, LRMs and MRMs all line up

Bren

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #43 on: 15 March 2015, 05:39:48 »
Minor quibble. I believe Uchi was a woman?

'Uchi' is a male name as far as I understand. Invading Clans indeed used male pronouns.

You might be thinking of Sarah 'Cat' Kattrin on Twilight (Jade Falcon Sourcebook).

idea weenie

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #44 on: 15 March 2015, 18:34:48 »
I didn't mention infantry missiles one way or the other.  But since you bring it up, I'd probably say that infantry missiles can be fired from mech/vehicle launchers.  But infantry missile launchers can't substitute for mech/vehicle missile launchers.

I'd be happy with infantry fired munitions getting a shorter range than Mech mounted munitions.

I.e. Ranges for firing SRMs from various platforms:
Infantry: 2/4/6
BattleArmor: 2/4/7
ProtoMech: 3/5/8
BattleMech: 3/6/9

The launchers get bigger, so the missiles get more range (from better firing support).  So a Mech could mount infantry sized SRM launchers, but they also get infantry SRM ranges.  Similarly, since infantry SRMs are exposed, this means the autoloaders are exposed, so any hits to that location disable the infantry weapons on that area (no critical roll needed).

Vehrec

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #45 on: 16 March 2015, 11:21:15 »
I don't know that it's so much a sinister plot to impose a specific vision as it is the gradual move away from "beer & pretzels" to a more highly detailed and realistic setting.  It makes perfect sense that a fusion-powered walking war machine from centuries in the future would be more technologically advanced and complicated than anything we have today.  Battlemechs should be fantastically more complicated than armored vehicles or modern combat aircraft.

On the other hand, Lostech.  Why can't Battlemechs self-repair to a certain extent, making them less inert pieces of metal and more blurring the line between life and technology?  Buster Machines in DieBuster are certainly in this category of lost technology, replicateable only through tremendous effort, and then sometimes failing to 'awaken' their true power.  Think of that as a road not taken, a way to have more Mechs Errant, and fewer questions about the economics of the setting if the Battlemech is well and truly disconnected from the economy of those who use it.

Fewer new designs, TROs, and models though.
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blackjack

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #46 on: 16 March 2015, 22:17:53 »
One of the Keith brothers actually had an article in an old mag (far & away maybe) that Spoke about nano bot repair systems.  They would repair damaged circuits etc.
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RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #47 on: 17 March 2015, 02:18:57 »
I don't know that it's so much a sinister plot to impose a specific vision as it is the gradual move away from "beer & pretzels" to a more highly detailed and realistic setting.  It makes perfect sense that a fusion-powered walking war machine from centuries in the future would be more technologically advanced and complicated than anything we have today.  Battlemechs should be fantastically more complicated than armored vehicles or modern combat aircraft.
It doesn't require any plot at all just human nature.  You get a few people high up in a team who think of the project a certain way.  And they'll favor others who do the same, and before too long all that's left are people who think like them because others left.  And that's what happened with BattleTech in my opinion, a group of like-minded people populated the team with other people like them.  And in the process began changing the setting to meet their own vision rather than one closer to its origin.

I look at what Battlemechs actually do and what they're supposed to be modeled on and I don't think current trends are in the right direction.  I prefer to ignore a lot of the newer rules on maintenance and support and go back to older rules or where those didn't exist base them on armored vehicle logistics rather the fighter squadrons used by the current PTB.  So while designing the major components and producing them may be very complicated and very hard at the assembly/repair level it's not nearly that difficult.  Designing and manufacturing a modern engine for a large vehicle is difficult and requires lots of people and hardware.  But nearly any backwater industrial/agricultural garage can rebuild it, install it, or modify it.  And I see mechs the same way, I don't see the practical end of their use and maintenance as being any more complicated than keeping a modern AFV or piece of heavy industrial equipment running.
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SCC

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #48 on: 17 March 2015, 03:50:40 »
A 'Mech suffering serious problems because it's not maintained properly is rather at odds with the universe fluff

RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #49 on: 17 March 2015, 07:38:13 »
A 'Mech suffering serious problems because it's not maintained properly is rather at odds with the universe fluff
Indeed they have many examples of the things getting by on impossibly low levels of maintenance going by current rules.  Being left stored sometimes for centuries with no maintenance and still be in working order.  Being repairable by local techs who aren't genius highly educated specimens and more in common with the local industrial equipment supplier. etc.

But it doesn't really matter because they see the setting in a certain way and are determined to make it match that vision by adjusting the rules and changing the newer fluff.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #50 on: 17 March 2015, 08:25:52 »
It doesn't require any plot at all just human nature.  You get a few people high up in a team who think of the project a certain way.  And they'll favor others who do the same, and before too long all that's left are people who think like them because others left.  And that's what happened with BattleTech in my opinion, a group of like-minded people populated the team with other people like them.  And in the process began changing the setting to meet their own vision rather than one closer to its origin.

I look at what Battlemechs actually do and what they're supposed to be modeled on and I don't think current trends are in the right direction.  I prefer to ignore a lot of the newer rules on maintenance and support and go back to older rules or where those didn't exist base them on armored vehicle logistics rather the fighter squadrons used by the current PTB.  So while designing the major components and producing them may be very complicated and very hard at the assembly/repair level it's not nearly that difficult.  Designing and manufacturing a modern engine for a large vehicle is difficult and requires lots of people and hardware.  But nearly any backwater industrial/agricultural garage can rebuild it, install it, or modify it.  And I see mechs the same way, I don't see the practical end of their use and maintenance as being any more complicated than keeping a modern AFV or piece of heavy industrial equipment running.
Don't you think the people running the universe know what they're supposed to be modeled on?  I mean, since they're the ones coming up with the ideas in the first place and all...
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RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #51 on: 17 March 2015, 09:40:20 »
Don't you think the people running the universe know what they're supposed to be modeled on?  I mean, since they're the ones coming up with the ideas in the first place and all...
I think that enough has changed since the earlier days of FASA and enough people involved have changed that you've got developers with a somewhat different view of the setting than was originally intended.  And if you don't agree with where the newer ideas are going why should you care what the people doing them intend? 
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #52 on: 17 March 2015, 12:19:44 »
Edit: nevermind.  There's no point in arguing over what Jordan Weisman & co. intended in the 80s.  It's irrelevant anyway.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2015, 12:21:27 by Arkansas Warrior »
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RunandFindOut

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #53 on: 17 March 2015, 16:45:42 »
Edit: nevermind.  There's no point in arguing over what Jordan Weisman & co. intended in the 80s.  It's irrelevant anyway.
Yes we should stop before it becomes threadcrapping.

In the end people just have different visions of aspects about the game setting.  I tend to prefer ones from earlier in the game's development which make the 'Errant Mechwarrior' vibe easier to pull off in-setting.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #54 on: 17 March 2015, 16:55:33 »
And I'd much rather have the modern developers.  The modern fluff makes a lot more sense, and works together better, than FASA's ever did.
Sunrise is Coming.

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Vehrec

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #55 on: 17 March 2015, 22:13:54 »
And I'd much rather have the modern developers.  The modern fluff makes a lot more sense, and works together better, than FASA's ever did.

That is, of course, entirely a matter of perspective.  The modern fluff has some bits that make me, personally, want to burn my sourcebooks.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #56 on: 17 March 2015, 22:28:49 »
Of course, that's what this whole debate has been about, perspective and opinion.  Like whether mechs are more like tanks or fighters.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

HABeas2

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #57 on: 18 March 2015, 03:27:28 »
I think you got some of this backwards. And despite what Herb says there's plenty of evidence that suggests that Infantry SRM's, LRM's and MRM's are the real deal

Sorry. I said this where and when?

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SCC

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #58 on: 18 March 2015, 03:41:54 »
Sorry. I said this where and when?
Ring any bells?

Hi,

Because all three are different weapons. They may have the same name, but the conventional infantry MagShot, the battle armor version, and the vehicular versions, are different forms.

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HABeas2

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Re: Have 'Mech, Will Travel: Errant MechWarriors
« Reply #59 on: 18 March 2015, 04:10:09 »
Ring any bells?

That answer referred to the MagShot. You mentioned SRMs, LRMs, and MRMs. Apples do not equal oranges, no matter how many nuts you throw into the equation.

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