Author Topic: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?  (Read 22865 times)

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #60 on: 09 May 2016, 13:37:46 »

Concentration of damage is a valid advantage of the PPC against other 'Mechs (particularly head shots), but spending less tonnage on the PPC and more on secondary weapons will generally favor the LL against other targets.  For the tonnage of two PPCs, you're only one ton shy of being able to use 3 LLs.

Exactly.  And at 2 crits per LL< that 3 pack of larges will take the SAME cri space as 2 peepers will.
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Kovax

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #61 on: 09 May 2016, 14:39:32 »
Exactly.  And at 2 crits per LL< that 3 pack of larges will take the SAME cri space as 2 peepers will.
24 potential damage beats a potential 20, although the odds of hitting with all 3 LLs are worse than for hitting with 2 "peeps".  Still, the odds of hitting with anything at all under less than ideal conditions are considerably better.  Very few of the games that I have ever played involved standing there and trading shots at 4 to hit.

Of course, in defense, the PPC has better to-hit odds at the 6 and 11-12 ranges.  Again, it all comes down to what's needed for the specific task at hand.

bakija

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #62 on: 09 May 2016, 18:28:15 »
Concentration of damage is a valid advantage of the PPC against other 'Mechs (particularly head shots), but spending less tonnage on the PPC and more on secondary weapons will generally favor the LL against other targets.  For the tonnage of two PPCs, you're only one ton shy of being able to use 3 LLs.

Sure, but then you are running into significant heat issues, which is a serious to do in this instance.

Like, assuming 3025-3039 era technology, 2PPC+10HS is essentially heat neutral (including the 10 internal HS) for 24 tons. For the same level of heat management, you get 3LL+14HS for 29 tons. Which is a significant difference. Yeah, the LLs do more damage (at shorter range), but it comes at the cost of 5 more tons. Heck, for the same 29 tons, the 2PPC+10HS guy could just add in 5ML to cover the close range gap in case it is caught at R1-3 and can't move away for whatever reason, and probably be better off.

Full disclosure--in my previous post, my math was bad (I blame whiskey :-); PPCs are 1.42 damage per ton and LL are 1.6 damage per ton. So LLs *are* certainly a bit more efficient, in terms of damage per ton. But I'm still gonna side with PPCs most of the time :-)

Daryk

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #63 on: 09 May 2016, 19:23:03 »
*snip*
(IF you use the rule which allows the PPC to fire at ranges below its minimum, which is better than not being able to shoot at all)
*snip*
Did I miss an errata?  Since when is the minimum range modifier optional?

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #64 on: 09 May 2016, 21:12:34 »
Did I miss an errata?  Since when is the minimum range modifier optional?

Disengaging the PPC field inhibitor goes back to Tactical Handbook, maybe earlier.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #65 on: 09 May 2016, 23:37:03 »
Disengaging the PPC field inhibitor goes back to Tactical Handbook, maybe earlier.

You can still shoot at ranges 1-3.  Range 2 is just like Medium Range, and range 3 is only a little worse than Short.

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #66 on: 10 May 2016, 00:02:16 »
Sure, but then you are running into significant heat issues, which is a serious to do in this instance.

Like, assuming 3025-3039 era technology, 2PPC+10HS is essentially heat neutral (including the 10 internal HS) for 24 tons. For the same level of heat management, you get 3LL+14HS for 29 tons. Which is a significant difference. Yeah, the LLs do more damage (at shorter range), but it comes at the cost of 5 more tons. Heck, for the same 29 tons, the 2PPC+10HS guy could just add in 5ML to cover the close range gap in case it is caught at R1-3 and can't move away for whatever reason, and probably be better off.

Full disclosure--in my previous post, my math was bad (I blame whiskey :-); PPCs are 1.42 damage per ton and LL are 1.6 damage per ton. So LLs *are* certainly a bit more efficient, in terms of damage per ton. But I'm still gonna side with PPCs most of the time :-)

DHSs significantly cant things in favor of the standard Large.  Two PPCs and heat sinks to keep them neutral (while running) is 14 + 1 = 15 tons, while three Large Lasers and heat sinks to keep them neutral under the same conditions is 15 + 3 = 18 tons.  The relative difference dropped two full tons for otherwise identical performance.  Adding a third PPC and a fourth Large only makes the difference more readily apparent.  21 (three PPCs) + 6 (DHSs) nets you 27 tons, while four Larges is 20 + 7 for the exact same total, but two more points of damage.  In the Large Lasers' case, you also don't need backup weapons for covering minimum range, and can instead put the tonnage that the PPCs would have invested in those weapons into things like LRMs.  The PPCs cannot, without surrendering a significant advantage.

Amusing note: In Alpha Strike, three PPCs is 3/3/3, while four Large Lasers is 4/4/0.  These damage profiles cost the same PV.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #67 on: 10 May 2016, 03:42:29 »
What Alexander Knight said... I should have stated my question more clearly.  The part that confused me was the "not being able to shoot at all", implying that using minimum range modifiers to range is an optional rule (and prohibiting fire is the norm), even though the minimum range example in Total Warfare itself is for a PPC.

Don Lunardi

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #68 on: 10 May 2016, 21:32:53 »
What Alexander Knight said... I should have stated my question more clearly.  The part that confused me was the "not being able to shoot at all", implying that using minimum range modifiers to range is an optional rule (and prohibiting fire is the norm), even though the minimum range example in Total Warfare itself is for a PPC.

Yes, that was how I read the original statement as well.

As for the other confusion regarding the Hothammer, while it does indeed have double Peeps, clearly they should have gone with 1x PPC and 1x LL in true Mad Max Liao style ::) ...just like the Marauder-L..

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JadedFalcon

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #69 on: 10 May 2016, 22:24:48 »
As for the other confusion regarding the Hothammer, while it does indeed have double Peeps, clearly they should have gone with 1x PPC and 1x LL in true Mad Max Liao style ::) ...just like the Marauder-L..

It's a shame it didn't. Would've fit quite nicely in a lance with a Marauder 3L, Awesome 8V, and a Striker.

Still looking at the role of a mech in regards to LL vs. PPC. The MAD-3M will maintain better mobility while firing given it's extra heat sinks, but the WHM-6K and WHM-6D can start to maintain the same speed with less bracket firing than a normal Warhammer. Definite considerations for a skirmisher lance but maybe not as important for a traditional heavy lance. The short-range firepower on something like a WHM-6K/R/L does a lot to offset the minimum-range problems of the PPCs, so I'm still caught up in context.

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #70 on: 11 May 2016, 02:06:47 »
This chatter is making me wanna develop a series of mechs (one of each 'weight bracket') sporting LLs as their primary weapons..
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Don Lunardi

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #71 on: 11 May 2016, 23:31:54 »
This chatter is making me wanna develop a series of mechs (one of each 'weight bracket') sporting LLs as their primary weapons..

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50741.0

I'll just leave this effort of mine here then....
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #72 on: 21 May 2016, 01:16:04 »
PPCs.

Once played a 3025 game at a local convention (way back in 1990) with 10 players to each side. I played on the attacking force with 20 mechs (2/player) against an unknown amount of defenders. Our objective was to get across the table (lengthwise) and that included getting past the city that covered 65% of the far side (It covered the entire left side and extended to just past the middle.) The right side at the far end was open. Now there was a road that started in the middle on our starting side and split into a 'Y' before the middle of the city, with the left road leading into the city on the left side of the table and the right road curving around in front of the middle part of the city, then to the right and past the city on the far right side.

Our side was making plans as to how to start and advance. I looked at all of the mech sheets and noticed the one thing that they had in common between most of them, they were armed with PPCs. I suggested to taking all of the mechs en-masse down the road and then take the right road at the split and just take all comers as they presented them selves.

Our side did just that, the bum rush. After the fourth turn the defenders arrogantly said aloud, "Aww, look at the lemmings." I said in response, "They may be lemmings, but there are 26 PPCs amongst the lemmings that are just waiting for targets to utterly destroy in one turn with little or no heat generated....." then briefly paused, "EACH TURN."

You could have heard a pin drop as the looks on their faces was one of concern and "yeah right".

The next turn they called our bluff and brought out a Griffin (3025 version, PPC and LRM 10 IIRC) into view to shoot at us AND NOTHING ELSE... Epic mistake.

So we did an all call with all 26 PPCs between all of the mechs on the Griffin. There were 11 hits. Destroyed the arm with the PPC, armor damage everywhere but the head and one of the other players on the team rolled a LT crit and took out the LRM.

The Griffin was done.

"Lemmings 1, Defenders 0" 

"Next"

There were a lot of muffled "Oh S*&t" remarks heard on the defenders side after that.

We won decisively as we got 13 mechs off the far side. We only needed to get 6 off for decisive victory but were not told that until the end of the game.

Yeah, PPCs over LL every time.

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #73 on: 21 May 2016, 01:36:59 »
Man i would have loved watching THAT battle!
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jackson123

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #74 on: 21 May 2016, 09:08:52 »
PPC all the way.

The Eagle

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #75 on: 21 May 2016, 09:40:38 »
PPCs.

Once played a 3025 game at a local convention... *snip*

Sounds like there was either a problem in the balancing of the game. . . or the defenders were incompetent.  That little anecdote has zero bearing on the superiority of the PPC versus the large laser because at no one time was the PPC's effectiveness or efficiency referenced in comparison to the large laser's in your tale.  You could easily have had a situation in which your 20 'Mechs carried 40 large lasers between them and had it play exactly the same way.
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Black_Knyght

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #76 on: 21 May 2016, 12:36:01 »
PERSONAL preference - Large Laser

Damage is close enough to a PPC for my liking, it's lighter and generates less heat.

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #77 on: 21 May 2016, 15:47:56 »
Sounds like there was either a problem in the balancing of the game. . . or the defenders were incompetent.  That little anecdote has zero bearing on the superiority of the PPC versus the large laser because at no one time was the PPC's effectiveness or efficiency referenced in comparison to the large laser's in your tale.  You could easily have had a situation in which your 20 'Mechs carried 40 large lasers between them and had it play exactly the same way.

True, the story could have gone the same way with large lasers, AC-10s, AC-20s... 

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #78 on: 23 May 2016, 09:09:21 »
Hmm... you know, I guess it depends on the role of what you put it on, for me.

If you've got poor heat sinks and/or want to make a brawler, I'd sooner go for the LL.

If you've got sinks to spare, making a sniper, or an all-arounder with a backup of MLs or something, a PPC is just dandy, though you'd need extra tonnage to pack it.

I don't know, I guess. I'd way rather have the LL on the enforcer over a PPC, and it might make a Panther a bit more effective as a brawler, but A Warhammer, Griffin, or an Awesome just wouldn't have the same oomph (to me) with lasers instead of PPCs.

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #79 on: 23 May 2016, 14:17:46 »
Well, if you went with the LL on a panther, and dropped one of the extra Heat sinks you can shift up to a 5/8/5 move and have max armor..
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #80 on: 24 May 2016, 23:09:35 »
I don't know, I guess. I'd way rather have the LL on the enforcer over a PPC, and it might make a Panther a bit more effective as a brawler, but A Warhammer, Griffin, or an Awesome just wouldn't have the same oomph (to me) with lasers instead of PPCs.

The CGR-SB Charger "Challenger" is basically an all-LL AWS-8Q: 3/5/0 movement curve, plenty of armor, and four large lasers.  Less range than the Awesome, but slightly higher damage with no minimum range.  I suggest taking it for a spin, it's one of the better Charger configs.
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garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #81 on: 25 May 2016, 15:42:21 »
I have had FUN with that Charger version..  Especially when i get up close and personal..

I just wish they had an updated version with say a 4/6 light engine, shift the heat sinks to doubles..
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #82 on: 25 May 2016, 20:07:01 »
Sounds like there was either a problem in the balancing of the game. . . or the defenders were incompetent.  That little anecdote has zero bearing on the superiority of the PPC versus the large laser because at no one time was the PPC's effectiveness or efficiency referenced in comparison to the large laser's in your tale.  You could easily have had a situation in which your 20 'Mechs carried 40 large lasers between them and had it play exactly the same way.

I share an event that I played in with everyone and give my preference for the PPC at the end and you jump on me?

Why are you unable to just enjoy my post and preference and move on?

Why are you being confrontational?




MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #83 on: 25 May 2016, 21:30:47 »
He was responding to your story because you cited it as a reason why the PPC is better than the large laser even though the story doesn't demonstrate any such superiority.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #84 on: 26 May 2016, 01:55:36 »
How does the Pulse Module change the equation in peoples eyes?

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #85 on: 26 May 2016, 06:58:24 »
I share an event that I played in with everyone and give my preference for the PPC at the end and you jump on me?

Why are you unable to just enjoy my post and preference and move on?

Why are you being confrontational?


I'm not being confrontational, I'm arguing.  You presented an anecdote citing PPC superiority, and I pointed out the flaw in your argument.  I didn't flame you or insult you, I didn't call you names for having an opinion that I thought was wrong.  PPCs are your personal preference?  I'm okay with that.  But this thread is about discussing which weapon is better, not which is your favorite.  The distinction is important.
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mike19k

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #86 on: 26 May 2016, 10:18:15 »
How does the Pulse Module change the equation in peoples eyes?

I am all for the Pulse PPC, but were would I find it stats? >:D


On a more serious note, the short range of the LPL just removes it from consideration in comparing it to the PPC (to me at least). I am not saying it is a bad weapon, just with out some range it is not in the same class. I think it is good backing up the ML for a close range slugger, but not a multi-purpose weapon. Clan LPL on the other hand better than either (but again different story).

Black_Knyght

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #87 on: 26 May 2016, 10:46:08 »
How does the Pulse Module change the equation in peoples eyes?

Pulse Module? Hadn't seen or heard of that yet!

garhkal

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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #88 on: 26 May 2016, 14:55:58 »
How does the Pulse Module change the equation in peoples eyes?

Well the pulse version weighs the same as the PPC, has the same heat, 1 less damage, almost half the range, but has that +2 to hit going for it..  All in all to me not anywhere near as equal a comparrison.
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Re: PPC or Large Laser, Which is King?
« Reply #89 on: 29 May 2016, 11:48:18 »
I believe the Pulse Module in discussion is the RISC equipment from IO. In that case the Large Laser becomes 6 tons, 10 heat and gains -1 bonus to hit. In my opinion it's quite interesting.
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