‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos

[Wrangler]

Edit: ninja'd. Yeh, Fluff over efficiency.Why not just build a regular Assault Mech, that acts like an Assault Mech and hits like an Assault Mech?  ???
I'm afraid the benefits of vehicle-ness elude me here. Then again, if tptb decide to create one, I probably wouldn't complain.

I'll probably withhold speculation, though. As seen with the Notos, the flexibility of quadvees really comes to the front when they notably gain, like with wheels and the correspondingly high roadspeed.
Heavier designs spend that much more total tonnage on conversion and the secondary drive train, I doubt it'd make much sense to try. Which probably means someone will.  ;D

For one thing, you can take a wheeled version of a QuadVee and transform and Roll out pretending your Optimus Prime!

The point of QuadVee (somewhat indirectly) was to fool Clan commanders bidding.  I don't know the costs associated with the construction of a QuadVee, so I don't know if building one is equally expensive as actual QuadMech.  However, they are durable and more accurate and come with spare pilot to get the thing back home when things go wrong.  I think Wheeled version is properly out luck if it's battlefield verses city.  It needs open terrain and can't use woods easily unless it converts to a Quad.

[marauder648]

Wasn't that one of the big things behind the quadvee development

"We bid two stars of 'Tanks'..."
"Why did you say it like that?"
"No reason..." *coughs*

But they also then filled out a bit of a niche that the horses saw them being useful in.

[sadlerbw]

I thought the secondary fluff reason was to help make better use of personnel that flushed out of the mechwarrior training programs. With less to worry about, they could have otherwise mediocre warriors focus on either JUST piloting, or JUST shooting, and not need to be great at both. It is still less people than a full-on tank crew, and the ride is a bit more survivable as well, so it's a more efficient way to use trained warriors...which is about the exact opposite of how BT started in 3025!

[Maelwys]

I don't know if the point of QuadVees was to fool Clan commanders during bidding. It may have been a secondary effect they discovered after the completion of the QuadVee, but I don't think it was a concern that lead to the creation of the QuadVee. "We're going to create a new type of unit for the Battlefield." "Oh? What's its role?" "To fool people during bidding!"

Happy secondary effect, doubt it was a driving premise behind the creation of.

I suppose it could've been a personnel issue. An assault tank might need 6-7 crew (1 per 15 tons, IIRC from TM), but the QuadVee only needs 2. If you can get the QuadVee to be as effective as the vehicle its replacing, you're saving on personnel quite a bit, and with the ability to transform you might not be as limited when it comes to terrain.

It might be a stretch, but during the "Drawdown" of the Stone Era, trying to make use of personnel in such a way might have seemed like a good idea.

[UnLimiTeD]

Then again, doesn't that also mean you're spending at least 20% of the weight of the units you do have on conversion equipment that requires trained technicians to maintain and repair?
I can see certain advantages in force composition, combat personell use, and both strategic and tactical movement, but I'm not quite sold on their logistics footprint.
Then again, no one really knows what all those people in the tanks are needed for, either.

[Maelwys]

I'm not saying its a great result, just that the "point" of designing the QuadVee might have been partially an attempt to reduce the number of crewmen needed for a vehicle, as well as an attempt to bring extra mobility to tanks.

[marauder648]

And there's also the TankWarrior's to consider and we know the Horses were the driving force behind them, this gives them an avenue other than driving normal tanks.

[Empyrus]

TankWarrior project is for the QuadVees, without QuadVees, no TankWarriors. At least, that's how i remember things going.

[marauder648]

TankWarrior project is for the QuadVees, without QuadVees, no TankWarriors. At least, that's how i remember things going.

Makes sense to me, so the two projects go hand in hand, its a big investment in resources to just go "Lets test it...." so i'd not be surprised to see an assault coming at some point. 

[mbear]

Makes sense to me, so the two projects go hand in hand, its a big investment in resources to just go "Lets test it...." so i'd not be surprised to see an assault coming at some point.

How about a superheavy? Like a quadvee OmniMonitor?

[Maelwys]

TankWarrior project is for the QuadVees, without QuadVees, no TankWarriors. At least, that's how i remember things going.

The TankWarrior project started in the 3090's, while the QuadVee Prototype equipment dates to the 3130's. While its possible that the QuadVee project could have been around since the 3090's and was the impetus behind the TankWarrior project as well, the two don't seem to be intrinsically linked in anyway.

TankWarriors are mentioned in the QuadVee section of 3145, but just as possible crewmembers (Same as Mechwarriors), but again, the two projects don't seem to be linked in any specific way.

[UnLimiTeD]

Ah, well, true, the advantage is certainly there; No matter what ground personell you have available, so long as it's not Infantry they can probably pilot the thing.
Internal politics wise, I think a "mech for tankwarriors" is indeed a powerful driving force, incomprehensible as it may be to outsiders.

[Jellico]

I guess it comes down to whether you view them as Mechs that change into strong tanks or tanks that change into weak Mechs.

If it is the latter QuadVees are certainly an improvement.

[Maelwys]

Ah, well, true, the advantage is certainly there; No matter what ground personell you have available, so long as it's not Infantry they can probably pilot the thing.
Internal politics wise, I think a "mech for tankwarriors" is indeed a powerful driving force, incomprehensible as it may be to outsiders.

You don't even get that really. ATOW gives TankWarriors Field Aptitude in the Cavalry, and QuadVees seem to use the Piloting skill as the primary skill rather than driving. So you're better off with a MW for the main pilot, and anyone for the gunner really, atleast according to the IO rules. The QuadVees are just sort of in this odd place.

[UnLimiTeD]

Ah, the rules. Same as the Grand Titan firing nukes, when none exist in the game for that calibre.
I would assume in vehicle mode it actually pilots somewhat like a tank. Of course, in mech mode it would not.
Speaking of which, I am not sold on the idea that those would actually make such great tanks. Yes, they have definite advantages, but all that left over weight easily eats up the savings on a heavier engine, on slower designs at least. As long as one does limit oneself to ammo-using weapons, heavy vehicles can carry vastly more firepower and armour than these things.
So going off a wild tangent based on my above analysis, QuadVees play to their strengths best by using a high rated engine, thereby A) reaching speeds where the extra movement on pavement/in wheeled mode would incur a significant cost as an engine upgrade, B) benefit compared to vehicles that pay extra tonnage for their engine, and C) allow room for the sinks required for the energy armament that vehicles can't easily have.
It seems to me this makes heavier Quad Vees unlikely, though an 80-ton wheeled assault would be possible.

[Elcor05]

Necro'ing the thread a bit, but one thing I've noticed in looking at the Protomech Clamp system from Wantec's lovely article from 3 years ago (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,45757.0.html) is that the Notos would make a very good Protomech or BA carrier. (Technically the Boreas can do it too, but the Notos being a lot faster seems to make the Boreas more obsolete in this regard.) With the Horses love of combined arms, any one Notos can carry a full point of BA or up to two Protomechs with a combined 12 tons up to 12mp running speed in a city with the Supercharger used. Since QuadVees seem to be Second-line mechs, and with OmniMechs being even rarer, these would make great garrison transports. There aren't a lot of cannon Protomechs with Mag Clamps that aren't Society Protos, but 10 Notos can carry almost a full star of Protomechs into battle.

For the record, the Protomechs that I can find that the Horses could theoretically get that aren't straight up Z versions are the Minotaur P2 (at 9 tons), the Gorgon 5 (at 8 tons), and then the Cecerops 5 (at 3 tons that would probably have to be moved around by the Notos) and, funnily enough, any old Hobgoblins that the Horses still have.

[grimlock1]

Since QuadVees seem to be Second-line mechs, and with OmniMechs being even rarer, these would make great garrison transports.

That's an odd tidbit.  The transforming tech seems like a lot of resources for a Clan to throw at 2nd line stuff. 

[Elcor05]

That's an odd tidbit.  The transforming tech seems like a lot of resources for a Clan to throw at 2nd line stuff.

Well it IS the Clans. Also the pilots themselves aren't the cream of the crop. They're probably on their 2nd or third chances. It raises moral, gives something that doesn't super break the bank, and gives a measure of pride to warriors who would normally not get it.

[Wrangler]

Thing with the Hell's Horses, the Clan that made these QuadVees, they were breeding new type of warrior, Tankwarriors types.  Thing is, those guys were meant to work in teams, don't have normal Clan bias about needing work alone.  I don't know if this fluff from Field Manual will still hold now, or some remembers that this was thing introduced.
So you can have elite guys running  around in supertank with legs.  Only thing i'm not sure of it the Tankwarriors having been trained to use QuadVees or MechWarriors trained like cross trained closely work as team. There just no fluff anywhere that covers it.  :P

[glitterboy2098]

it is also worth noting that the Horses seem to view the quadvee's as 'vehicles' rather than mechs.. they use the vehicle organization of 2 to a point even. and the majority of the quadvee's are non-Omni models still. while the horses accept non-mech forces more than most clans, there is probably still a fair degree of the pro-omni-bias in their warrior caste.

[marauder648]

Very true Glitterboy but we know that the Horses have managed to also merge the two techs (quadvee and Omni) with the Notos and Boreas both of which are omnis. 

really the Quadvee program combines both the Tankwarrior program and the Quadvees themselves, and IIRC there was basically a political movement centred on the Tankwarriors who have started to form their own political block in the Horses Tourman. 

And whilst the Horses treat Quadvee's like a vehicle (IE a point has 2 etc as you rightly pointed out) This seems more like it was done purely to dick over people they fought in Trials.  A case of

"Oh we bid one Star of 'tanks'"
"Why did you make the hyphen marks with your fingers?"
"Oh..no reason...."

And suddenly those 10 tanks turn out to be 10 Mechs.

[Wrangler]

You realize some day a Star Commander of a star consisting of only Notos QuadVees will say "Hell's Horses, Transform and Rollout!"

[grimlock1]

You realize some day a Star Commander of a star consisting of only Notos QuadVees will say "Hell's Horses, Transform and Rollout!"

Do the Horses require that IS freeborns give up their surname to join?  Just in case there isn't a "Cullen" Bloodname.

[marauder648]

Well in my non-canon Phaeton I MAY have made a reference to Transformers, folks generally missed it though.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59166.0

See if you can spot it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I spotted it.  Was kinda head-on, I thought.