Speculating on Clan Politics after the Battle of Terra (ilClan spoilers)

[Lanceman]

Alright, so some speculation running up to Tamar Rising.

The Ghost Bears are currently the greatest internal threat to the ilClan/Third Star League. They might have seemingly kowtowed and got on board with things, but they are the single most powerful Clan military in the Inner Sphere after the Battle of Terra. The Hell's Horses are the second, their defiance risks the legitimacy of Alaric's claim. I think Alaric will try to solve two problems with one, by directing the Ghost Bears against the Hell's Horses to bring them in line. Let the Bears wear themselves down a little or a whole lot, and bring the Horses in line at the same time.

The second internal issue is going to be the Clan Protectorate. Again, Sea Fox is all in to make a buck off Alaric, but the Protectorate itself is problematic. It's a constituent province of the new Free Worlds League, making it subject to an Inner Sphere power. This just won't do for the new order. And then there are the Spirit Cats and Nova Cats. While we see some degree of reconciliation between the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars in Forever Faithful, I don't think it will amount to much once the reborn Jags get a whiff of them. They will bay for blood, and if Alaric can't get past Wolf's Dragoons' betrayal a century or more ago, there's no way he's going to let the Abjured Nova Cats have a pass and the Spirit Cats will likely be guilty by association. This will bring the Third Star League into conflict with the Free Worlds League.   

[CJC070]

For the Hells Horses whatever forces do not go for Earth will be bogged down by the new Tamar Pact and internal dissension of the Inner Spheroids who suffered under Jade Falcon and Wolf rule.

I can see the Ghost Bears stating “make me” to any proposal by Alaric or any member of Clan Wolf.  Aiming for the Draconis Combine I can see. 

The Snow Ravens will probably wait and see.  The Clan protectorate will be interesting.  I can see them going for Clan Wolfs other territories to weaken him and creating a path straight to Earth so others can challenge Alaric personally if they could not.

The big question is what will the Dragoon’s do?  Will they build up their forces with mercenaries and battles or will they go warlord?

[jimdigris]

The Ghost Bears are quite happy sitting in their den.  Thus far, only the Horses have been adamant in their opposition to the Wolves.  I see them as being the biggest source of opposition among the Clans. 

Among the Inner Sphere, the Combine is stretched and knows it.  Having seen two clans disappear behind the Terran wall, I expect them to sit back and wait to see how that played out.  I don't see the Capellans showing the same degree of restraint and expect them to plow ahead at the first opportunity. At that point, we'll see how well Danai can hold the situation together.

The Clan Protectorate will do their best to keep a low profile.  The Wolves are major clients of the Foxes and war is very good for business.  The Cat part of the Protectorate simply doesn't have the numbers to give anyone the finger.

The Smoke Jaguars owe their standing to the Wolves and will likely acquiesce to the Wolves requests/demands.

The Snow Ravens are a wild card.  They will act entirely in the own interests.  Beyond that, nothing can be predicted.

I think that the Wolf's Dragoons will become as obsessed with revenge as the Waco Rangers.  They'll probably be more competent about it.  I expect them to ally themselves with a major government, rebuild, and act as focus for the resistance.

[Jellico]

The Sea Foxes aren't subject to the FWL. Spina Khanate has a degree of power in and is partially responsible for the Clan Protectorate.
Spina has proven difficult for the FWL. Of their on initiative they crunched the Regulans. Nominally because Nikol Marik wished it, but the parliament hadn't completed agreed yet.
Spina has also been acquiring ComStar infrastructure in the FWL.

So to summarise. The Sea Foxes aren't controlled by the FWL but instead are intertwining themselves in such a way as to make the FWL a slightly unwilling ally.

[Rncavenger]

The second internal issue is going to be the Clan Protectorate. Again, Sea Fox is all in to make a buck off Alaric, but the Protectorate itself is problematic. It's a constituent province of the new Free Worlds League, making it subject to an Inner Sphere power. This just won't do for the new order. And then there are the Spirit Cats and Nova Cats. While we see some degree of reconciliation between the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars in Forever Faithful, I don't think it will amount to much once the reborn Jags get a whiff of them. They will bay for blood, and if Alaric can't get past Wolf's Dragoons' betrayal a century or more ago, there's no way he's going to let the Abjured Nova Cats have a pass and the Spirit Cats will likely be guilty by association. This will bring the Third Star League into conflict with the Free Worlds League.

The Wolf Dragoons not only betrayed the clans, but also betrayed the specific WOLF clan. At the same time, they are mercenaries, which in itself is alien to the Clan culture. Nova Cats are much closer to Wolves in Exile in this regard. In addition, they helped save the remnants of the Jaguars. Given this and the genocide at the hands of the Draconis Combine, Alaric can accept them. At least for the sake of confirming his speech from " Childrens of Kerensky's".

[Lanceman]

The Ghost Bears are quite happy sitting in their den.  Thus far, only the Horses have been adamant in their opposition to the Wolves.  I see them as being the biggest source of opposition among the Clans. 

I think they can only get away with this for so long before the issue gets pressed. Alaric will have to learn that being ilKhan and First Lord doesn't mean you can't play politics and everyone will do what you say, but if the Bears are recalcitrant to act on orders for too long they'll be just as much of a threat to the new order that has to be dealt with even if a bit less direct.

[Agathos]

I don't see how the ilKhan can simply issue orders to the other Clans. A brief history, post-Political Century:

Leo Showers: "Follow me in Operation Revival, and the top performer becomes ilClan!" Had the good fortune to die before adjuticating that.

Ulric Kerensky: "Follow me to Tukayyid, and the top performer becomes ilClan!" When that went badly, he became the parent who tells you, "No!" Which led to...

Elias Crichell: "Let us just kill Ulric and resume the invasion!" That was popular enough, but his actual tenure as ilKhan was pretty short.

Lincoln Osis: The other Clans ignored him. An isolated Clan Smoke Jaguar faced a united Inner Sphere.

Garrett Sainze: Failed to overturn the Great Refusal by vote, and was Trialed and killed for it.

Brett Andrews: "Follow me to purge the Inner Sphere Clans and we can do the invasion right this time, and the top performer becomes ilClan!"

Hannibal Banacek: "The Steel Vipers are jerks, let us do something about it." (That's it, that's the pitch.) Wisely resigned before anyone could ask, "Okay, now what?"

One recurring theme is the promise of the invasion and the contest to become ilClan. Other than that, Banacek simply asked the Clans to do something they already wanted to do by that point: end the Steel Vipers. Osis and Sainze were failures because they asked for the obedience of the other Clans and did not receive it.


For obvious reasons, Alaric can't dangle the ilClan carrot in front of the other Clans. He may try to argue that the ilClan gives him the power to order the other Clans around to a greater degree than prior ilKhans were able to. But that is untested territory and if they refuse, he may look more like an Osis or a Sainze.

[Stormlion1]

I think Alaric sitting on Terra might make the Clans listen. But after the fighting they lack the power to make the other Clans act. The other issue is Terra is a weakened planet now. If the CapCon hit Terra and weakened it even more the other Clans could see the Wolves as too weak to be IlClan. Imagine if the Bears declared a Trial of Absorption against the Wolves. Heck, the Falcons and Jaguars are weak enough that a Trial of Absorption could be easily done by any other Clan. One hundred Falcons arent even a full strength Galaxy.

[nova_dew]

Alright, so some speculation running up to Tamar Rising.

The Ghost Bears are currently the greatest internal threat to the ilClan/Third Star League. They might have seemingly kowtowed and got on board with things, but they are the single most powerful Clan military in the Inner Sphere after the Battle of Terra.

I think they can only get away with this for so long before the issue gets pressed. Alaric will have to learn that being ilKhan and First Lord doesn't mean you can't play politics and everyone will do what you say, but if the Bears are recalcitrant to act on orders for too long they'll be just as much of a threat to the new order that has to be dealt with even if a bit less direct.

The Bears may also have something to threaten Alaric with in a political sense and they have maybe more experience now playing the political game than Alaric does when it comes to Clan-IS politics, A member of the Wolf watch, may have advised him to be careful with the Bears just in case they do have something, at the same time not so subtly brown nosing him, which is quite funny, it seems that either Alaric or the Wolf watch person might have some "issues" [/spoilers]

[CJC070]

I think Alaric sitting on Terra might make the Clans listen. But after the fighting they lack the power to make the other Clans act. The other issue is Terra is a weakened planet now. If the CapCon hit Terra and weakened it even more the other Clans could see the Wolves as too weak to be IlClan. Imagine if the Bears declared a Trial of Absorption against the Wolves. Heck, the Falcons and Jaguars are weak enough that a Trial of Absorption could be easily done by any other Clan. One hundred Falcons arent even a full strength Galaxy.

Depending on how many were elementals the Falcons might not even posses a full cluster. But I do agree with your assessment.

[Nerroth]

The Wolf Dragoons not only betrayed the clans, but also betrayed the specific WOLF clan.

The same Clan Wolf of Khan Kerlin Ward, who ordered the Dragoons to stay in the Inner Sphere and to help prepare it to oppose an eventual Clan invasion?

At the same time, they are mercenaries, which in itself is alien to the Clan culture.

Living the mercenary life for a few decades didn't stop Natasha Kerensky from being welcomed back to Clan Wolf during Operation REVIVAL.

Nor did being a former mercenary - one who had fought Alaric himself on numerous occasions - dent Anastasia Kerensky's career prospects once she became a part of Clan Wolf.

-----

I mentioned this in a different thread, but I would not be surprised to see the "Mandate of Kerensky" be up for reinterpretation, depending on how things go once the Wall around the Sol system is finally dropped.

I don't think it be much of a stretch to see the requirement to conquer Terra be re-framed as a requirement to both take and hold it - at least from another Clan.

To put it like this: if the Capellans are the first to take a shot at Terra, that might be treated as a "Star League Defense Force" problem: it's not in the interest of the Council of Six Clans to see any of the House Lords succeed in that regard.

But on the other hand, despite what Alaric might think would happen, I could well see the Council deciding that a de facto Trial of Refusal by Clan Hell's Horses at some point after the events of Tamar Rising was a "Clan Wolf" problem. If the Wolves aren't strong enough to keep the Horses at bay, why should another Clan bail them out? Not least if a successful transfer of the "Mandate of Kerensky" happens to set a useful precedent should another Clan - say, the Ghost Bears - take a shot against the Horses in turn.

[Orwell84]

I mentioned this in a different thread, but I would not be surprised to see the "Mandate of Kerensky" be up for reinterpretation, depending on how things go once the Wall around the Sol system is finally dropped.

I don't think it be much of a stretch to see the requirement to conquer Terra be re-framed as a requirement to both take and hold it - at least from another Clan.

To put it like this: if the Capellans are the first to take a shot at Terra, that might be treated as a "Star League Defense Force" problem: it's not in the interest of the Council of Six Clans to see any of the House Lords succeed in that regard.

But on the other hand, despite what Alaric might think would happen, I could well see the Council deciding that a de facto Trial of Refusal by Clan Hell's Horses at some point after the events of Tamar Rising was a "Clan Wolf" problem. If the Wolves aren't strong enough to keep the Horses at bay, why should another Clan bail them out? Not least if a successful transfer of the "Mandate of Kerensky" happens to set a useful precedent should another Clan - say, the Ghost Bears - take a shot against the Horses in turn.

I can see this happening as well. If Alaric is lucky the Capellans will hit Terra before the Horses, making it easier for him to bind the Dominion's large army to the Star League. Whether that works out for him in the long run might be a different story.

[Rncavenger]

I can see this happening as well. If Alaric is lucky the Capellans will hit Terra before the Horses, making it easier for him to bind the Dominion's large army to the Star League. Whether that works out for him in the long run might be a different story.

And what can the  Capellans do on Terra? How will they land? There are now more than 10 warships there. The Capellans army has a chance to repeat the fate of the Alshain avengers.

[Rncavenger]

The same Clan Wolf of Khan Kerlin Ward, who ordered the Dragoons to stay in the Inner Sphere and to help prepare it to oppose an eventual Clan invasion?

Ulric gave all the Dragoons a chance to return. Natasha is back, the others are not. This is exactly what Alaric was talking about in the Hour of the Wolf. From his point of view, the Dragoons then betrayed the Wolves.

[Metallgewitter]

And what can the  Capellans do on Terra? How will they land? There are now more than 10 warships there. The Capellans army has a chance to repeat the fate of the Alshain avengers.

Nothing a well placed nuke or a good aerospacefighter crash can't take care of. Or an assault drop ship ramming into the engine section.

Though if the Capellans really make it to Terra I would wager the other Clans just watch. Like the Jaguars were left alone with the nice message "You can take them. They are just IS barbarians". Well unless alaric can offer some nice incentive. Not to mention he will have to rely on IS forces (former RAF forces) if he wants any chance of winning. Or does anyone think Alaric can fill the gaps in his rosters with Trueborns alone?

[nckestrel]

Ulric gave all the Dragoons a chance to return. Natasha is back, the others are not. This is exactly what Alaric was talking about in the Hour of the Wolf. From his point of view, the Dragoons then betrayed the Wolves.

Showers issued the recall order, not Ulric?  Wolf's Dragoons never disobeyed a Wolf Khan?

[CVB]

And what can the  Capellans do on Terra? How will they land? There are now more than 10 warships there. The Capellans army has a chance to repeat the fate of the Alshain avengers.

Maybe we will learn that there has been a powerful Capellan underground movement all along, in hiding since the time of Elias Liao's escape from Terra, ready to sabotage the defenses...
</sarcasm>

[Jellico]

Showers issued the recall order, not Ulric?  Wolf's Dragoons never disobeyed a Wolf Khan?

The whole thing was overly lawyerly. Like FASA wrote themselves into a hole and needed to get specific characters in a specific place.

Wolf's Dragoons aren't traitors. They are following the orders of the Khan.
Well that just means Kerlin was somewhere between acting in bad faith to the Dragoon Compromise, of flat out being a traitor. Clans have been absorbed for less.

FASA would have been better off leaving the Dragoons as traitors 30 years ago. It just would have been simpler.

[Nerroth]

One other topic which might be interesting to see the Council address at some point is whether or not to formally welcome Clan Goliath Scorpion back from the Periphery sub-board into the fold.

Depending on how long it takes for news of the formation of the Scorpion Empire to reach the Inner Sphere - and, perhaps just as importantly, for word to reach the beleaguered Scientist Castes of the Council of Six Clans that the Scorpion HPG network remains fully operational - perhaps there might be a case to be made for a formal reconciliation with the Goliath Scorpions in the IlClan Era.

For one thing, it might be useful to see just how far from Terra one must go before the effects of the Blackout no longer apply, were the Scorpions willing to attempt to establish a chain of HPG relay satellites akin to those which once ran along the old REVIVAL road. That might still require a command circuit from the closest unaffected system to, say, the Sea Fox holdings in the Chaine Cluster; but even this would significantly improve any would-be lines of communication nonetheless.

Plus, on a more cynical note, the Scorpions might serve as a useful tripwire, in the event that Clan Star Adder is still out there planning an invasion of its own.

Of course, much would depend on whether or not the Scorpions would even want to reconcile with the Council of Six Clans, let alone recognise any of them as ilClan.

But even so, would a "Council of Seven" (or a "Council of Eight", as and when the reconstituted Smoke Jaguars are upgraded to "full" Can status) make for a interesting setup?

[Orwell84]

Could even be a "Council of Nine" if the Nova Cats are (justly) resurrected. By that point it may be more likely to be renamed as the Star League Council or such.

Yes, the fact that the Scorpions have working HPGs would in itself be a useful bargaining tool. But given the distance involved and the ilClan having closer issues to deal with, the timeline will probably have moved on to 3152-53 at the earliest before both parties are able to conclude any agreements. That's assuming the Scorpion Empire is still a mid-size power - a lot could have happened between 3140 and 3151.

But if the new Star League is able to restore their HPG network based on Scorpion Empire aid, that may give it a crucial edge it needs to build itself up into a major power.

[Cannonshop]

And what can the  Capellans do on Terra? How will they land? There are now more than 10 warships there. The Capellans army has a chance to repeat the fate of the Alshain avengers.

what can they do? nothing.  This is kind of the problem with trying to prognosticate this stuff.  by every rational metric, the Cappies are basically screwed as soon as Alaric decides to hit them-they don't have tech, luck, competence, etc. on their side, and they don't have anything to match that fleet with.  Naked charges and suicide bombs aren't going to do the job.

any "House vs. Wolf' match ups now, are going to be a one-sided mudstomp, the ONLY competition is other Clans, everyone else is basically 'hasn't been conquered by the unstoppable Wolves' yet.

please note the word 'yet'.  Most of the IS Houses don't even have the infrastructure to begin trying to match up.  The conditions are pre-set, the next 100 years 'in character' are going to either be Clan infighting (until the devs get bored and annihilate the losers who aren't Wolf) or one-sided mudstomps by Clan forces applied to everyone who isn't Clan (because everyone else doesn't have the tech, infrastructure, economy, communications or united chain of command to do anything but lose loudly).

This would've been different, if there'd been a mutual slagging of major naval assets, but that's not what happened, so, the Cappies can do jack and shit about the Wolf hold on Terra and the Sol system (and anything else Alaric decides he wants to take, including Sian).

[RifleMech]

I don't see how Wolf's Dragoons betrayed Clan Wolf. They were under orders from Khan Kerlin Ward to stay and defend the IS. I see see how the Wolves might think they had until Natasha Kerensky returned. I'm pretty sure she would have would have disavowed any Clanner of such notions.

Alaric, though has a problem. Many of them. Clan Wolf didn't take Terra on it's own. It needed help from another Clan. While it can be argued that Clans have worked together in the past the events during the Trial to see which Clan would be IlClan can't. Instead of fighting Clan vs Clan he brought in outside help. Help in the form of the Mercenary Wolf's Dragoons and the Abjured Wolf Clan in Exile. Then after winning he turned he denied his offer to integrate the Dragoons back into Clan Wolf. Openly admitted to "Hiring" them as mercenaries.

All those things calls into question Alaric's, integrity, honor, and abilities as a leader. He couldn't fight his enemies without help. He can't be trusted as he lies to his allies. He hires mercenaries. What Clanner does those things?

I would like to think that there's those who would see Alaric's actions as a big stain on his capabilities as a leader, and his honor as a clan warrior. I'd like to think that despite their lipservice to him, that the other Clans, including the former Wolves in Exile, will remember how he became IlKhan and his treatment of Wolf's Dragoons and act accordingly. I am hoping that this leads to a lot of problems for him and that we aren't seeing the beginnings of the Third Star League but the events leading up to it.

I think a lot of the IS, Houses and Clans, are really going to be like, "So?" I also think that when Alaric faces the Capellan Confederation the other Clans will be like, "You're the IlKhan. You deal with them. Unless you're not strong enough..."

As for Wolf's Dragoons, I think they'll rebuild but they'll also plant themselves in front of Alaric the way they did Takashi Kurita during the 4th Succession War. If Alaric want's to unit the IS under his rule by force, he'll have to go through them.

[Nibs]

I don't see how Wolf's Dragoons betrayed Clan Wolf. They were under orders from Khan Kerlin Ward to stay and defend the IS. I see see how the Wolves might think they had until Natasha Kerensky returned. I'm pretty sure she would have would have disavowed any Clanner of such notions.

Besides the argument that states that the Dragoons ignored the return order, we should also consider the in-character perspectives. For us, we can flip through a nearly omnipresent sourcebook and understand with perfect clarity. For Alaric and the people of the BattleTech Universe, they have over one hundred years of misinformation, bias, different perspectives, and politics. Kerlin Ward's 3019 Warden ideals are not Alaric's 3151 Crusader ideals, much as us in 2021 cannot truly understand the perspective of those in 1896.

Similarly, consider a Dragoons soldier born in the Lyran Commonwealth who joins the Wolf's Dragoons in 3144. In what way does she bear any tangible link to the Clans and to rejoin Clan Wolf? Characters are often carried away with their own personal perspectives.

[RifleMech]

Besides the argument that states that the Dragoons ignored the return order, we should also consider the in-character perspectives. For us, we can flip through a nearly omnipresent sourcebook and understand with perfect clarity. For Alaric and the people of the BattleTech Universe, they have over one hundred years of misinformation, bias, different perspectives, and politics. Kerlin Ward's 3019 Warden ideals are not Alaric's 3151 Crusader ideals, much as us in 2021 cannot truly understand the perspective of those in 1896.

Similarly, consider a Dragoons soldier born in the Lyran Commonwealth who joins the Wolf's Dragoons in 3144. In what way does she bear any tangible link to the Clans and to rejoin Clan Wolf? Characters are often carried away with their own personal perspectives.

The Dragoons had previous orders which Natasha Kerensky would have informed the others of.

In what way does anyone born in Clan Wolf in Exile have a connection to the other Wolves? I'm pretty sure that Wolf's Dragoons maintained their history and traditions which would include their origins. I'm also sure the Dragoons will remember that they were turned away after they were their for the Wolves.

[Nibs]

The Dragoons had previous orders which Natasha Kerensky would have informed the others of.

Certainly, I didn't deny that the information is not available. But one hundred years have passed. Perspectives considering the information will have changed. Alaric may conveniently forget Natasha's information. Or perhaps he sees the Dragoons following Kerlin's orders as traitorous. These characters do not have the omnipresent view that we have. They are guided by multitudinous biases and perspectives that have constantly shifted and changed over the last century. For Alaric, it may simply be his Crusader viewpoint or perhaps a disgust that the Dragoons turned their backs on the Clans - even if it was on orders.

In what way does anyone born in Clan Wolf in Exile have a connection to the other Wolves? I'm pretty sure that Wolf's Dragoons maintained their history and traditions which would include their origins. I'm also sure the Dragoons will remember that they were turned away after they were their for the Wolves.

Precisely my point. It does not matter about the real, tangible links between these groups. It does not matter if the Exiles have been separated for ninety years or that the Dragoons were ordered to sever ties. It does not matter if a Dragoons trooper has absolutely zero connection to the Clans. It is the perspective and ideas that matter, the narratives that one tells oneself when establishing the universe around them. The Dragoons may have a tenuous connection to the Clans by 3151, one only kept by historical tradition rather than a tangible link. But they are inspired to stay connected by their perspectives, much like the Eridani Light Horse to Star League.

The Dragoons may have an absolutely factual defence concerning their membership in Clan Wolf or their absolution of being traitors. But all that matters is what Alaric feels about their status. These characters are not necessarily right or wrong, but they are informed by so much more than the bare facts. Our omnipresent, emotionless perspective is not theirs.

[nckestrel]

I find it odd that the Wolf’s Dragoon’s take a call from Clan Wolf seriously, in 3151, where Clan Wolf (at least it’s Clan) does not.
The idea that Alaric does this based on his own ignorance, considering how arrogant he is, makes it almost hilarious.
Wolfs Dragoon’s: A Wolf Khan has finally rescinded our orders and we can return to the Clans!  OMG, it’s been like 150 years!
Wolf Khan: I will finally make them pay for 150 years of treachery!
Wolf Loremaster: Actually, they‘ve been following their orders….
Wolf Khan: Shut up, I’m having a dramatic moment here. (Hands over thirty silver coins). HAHAHA!  Get it?!? 

[Nibs]

I find it odd that the Wolf’s Dragoon’s take a call from Clan Wolf seriously, in 3151, where Clan Wolf (at least it’s Clan) does not.
The idea that Alaric does this based on his own ignorance, considering how arrogant he is, makes it almost hilarious.
Wolfs Dragoon’s: A Wolf Khan has finally rescinded our orders and we can return to the Clans!  OMG, it’s been like 150 years!
Wolf Khan: I will finally make them pay for 150 years of treachery!
Wolf Loremaster: Actually, they‘ve been following their orders….
Wolf Khan: Shit up, I’m having a dramatic moment here. (Hands over thirty silver coins). HAHAHA!  Get it?!?

Alaric is an absolute twerp bathing in his own self-glory. He's going to have a rough time ruling his Star League with the power that he believes he should have.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Idly, on the question of whether the Wolf's Dragoons would even want to rejoin the Wolf clan...how many OG Wolf Clan Dragoons are left alive, let alone currently serving?  It's been a century, the entirety of the Dragoons has to be IS-born people.  Even if there was a culture of clan followers that extended to their kids and grandkids, the Dragoons should see themselves as Spheroid rather than Clan.

Hell, they're working for Kurita again - that alone should point out how much weight the past doesn't have to their mindset.

[MarauderCH IIC]

One other topic which might be interesting to see the Council address at some point is whether or not to formally welcome Clan Goliath Scorpion back from the Periphery sub-board into the fold.

I've theorized that the Scorpion Empire is going to be the crossroads that brings the Home Clans back into the fold. How that happens will be interesting to find out. Sea Fox merchants encountering and doing business with the Scorpion Empire seems likely to start events. Are the home clans aware of the Scorpion Empire?

[Metallgewitter]

I've theorized that the Scorpion Empire is going to be the crossroads that brings the Home Clans back into the fold. How that happens will be interesting to find out. Sea Fox merchants encountering and doing business with the Scorpion Empire seems likely to start events. Are the home clans aware of the Scorpion Empire?

If we go by the IE source book at least Clan Cloud Cobra is aware given the hints that Cobra watch agents are spying on the Escorpion Empire. Though who knows how the situation is now given the fact that the Scorpions somehow managed to pull this backward nation into a modern age. I think in WoR there is also amention that some Homeworld Clanners lobby for strikes against the empire to sharpen their skills. I can't imagine

Though would the Sea Foxes actually travel that deep into Space? They had forsworn to make any contact with the Clans left in the Homeworlds. The Scorpions might be an exception given that they were kicked out of Clan space but I would wager that traveling that close to the Homeworlds would bring unwanted attention. Wouldn't that be ironic if the Homeworld Clans start attacking again because Clan Sea Foxy became too greedy?

[Agathos]

After pacifying the former Castilian and Caliphate worlds,
and then purging their new holdings of Clan Watch over the
following decade, Clan Goliath Scorpion began severe societal
restructuring.

Hanseatic Crusade, p. 8.

“Purging” sounds pretty definitive. If the Homeworld Clans still have eyes there, they’ve kept a low profile, low enough to remain undetected for decades.

[Maelwys]

I find it odd that the Wolf’s Dragoon’s take a call from Clan Wolf seriously, in 3151, where Clan Wolf (at least it’s Clan) does not.

For the most part they didn't. IIRC the story goes something like
"Would you like to rejoin Wolf Clan?"
"Uh, no thanks. We're mercs, we haven't been clanners for like 125 years, our soldiers hail from everywhere. So yeah, no.'
"But this one commander wants to, and he's going to rebel against you!"
"Yeah, okay. Lets put down this rebellion."
"Haha! The side that wanted to join the Wolf Clan lost! Now you have to join the Wolf Clan to prevent people from know about your internal issues! For honor!"
"Oh, okay. Wolfy wolf wolf!"

[Lanceman]

For the most part they didn't. IIRC the story goes something like
"Would you like to rejoin Wolf Clan?"
"Uh, no thanks. We're mercs, we haven't been clanners for like 125 years, our soldiers hail from everywhere. So yeah, no.'
"But this one commander wants to, and he's going to rebel against you!"
"Yeah, okay. Lets put down this rebellion."
"Haha! The side that wanted to join the Wolf Clan lost! Now you have to join the Wolf Clan to prevent people from know about your internal issues! For honor!"
"Oh, okay. Wolfy wolf wolf!"

Well that and the promise that they'd be the tip of the spear against Malvina, which was robbed from them of course.

[RifleMech]

Certainly, I didn't deny that the information is not available. But one hundred years have passed. Perspectives considering the information will have changed. Alaric may conveniently forget Natasha's information. Or perhaps he sees the Dragoons following Kerlin's orders as traitorous. These characters do not have the omnipresent view that we have. They are guided by multitudinous biases and perspectives that have constantly shifted and changed over the last century. For Alaric, it may simply be his Crusader viewpoint or perhaps a disgust that the Dragoons turned their backs on the Clans - even if it was on orders.

Precisely my point. It does not matter about the real, tangible links between these groups. It does not matter if the Exiles have been separated for ninety years or that the Dragoons were ordered to sever ties. It does not matter if a Dragoons trooper has absolutely zero connection to the Clans. It is the perspective and ideas that matter, the narratives that one tells oneself when establishing the universe around them. The Dragoons may have a tenuous connection to the Clans by 3151, one only kept by historical tradition rather than a tangible link. But they are inspired to stay connected by their perspectives, much like the Eridani Light Horse to Star League.

The Dragoons may have an absolutely factual defence concerning their membership in Clan Wolf or their absolution of being traitors. But all that matters is what Alaric feels about their status. These characters are not necessarily right or wrong, but they are informed by so much more than the bare facts. Our omnipresent, emotionless perspective is not theirs.

Where's it say that Alaric believes them to be traitors though? It seems to be the general narrative that the Dragoons were traitors. Where did that narrative it come? The Clans have been in contact with the Dragoons for 100 years. If they were traitors, why did Wolf In Exile come to their aid on Outreach? The whole narrative feels forced. The Dragoons being Mercenaries, no question. Traitors; no.

Idly, on the question of whether the Wolf's Dragoons would even want to rejoin the Wolf clan...how many OG Wolf Clan Dragoons are left alive, let alone currently serving?  It's been a century, the entirety of the Dragoons has to be IS-born people.  Even if there was a culture of clan followers that extended to their kids and grandkids, the Dragoons should see themselves as Spheroid rather than Clan.

Hell, they're working for Kurita again - that alone should point out how much weight the past doesn't have to their mindset.

At least up until the Jihad the Wolf's Dragoons were unique. They were IS but they were also Clan. They had Freebiths and Trueborns  but both were equal. After the Jihad, I'm unsure about but I would think that they would try to maintain their identity, customs, and traditions.

[Rncavenger]

Alaric had made a big mistake with the Dragoons. And it's not about how he treated them. The fact is that he paid them. This means that he used mercenaries in the trial. I would be surprised if none of the clans uses this fact when the time comes.

[Nibs]

Where's it say that Alaric believes them to be traitors though? It seems to be the general narrative that the Dragoons were traitors. Where did that narrative it come?

From 100 years of cultural development of which we are not privy to the details? It's hard to say precisely when the nitty-gritty is in the details. To write a realistic depiction, I would say that no one Clanner stood up and declared that the Dragoons were actually traitors. It came from minuscule changes in attitudes, writings, and culture. Perhaps, over time, the strongly Crusader Wolves developed a pure rejection of the pre-Revival Warden Wolves, including the actions of Khans like Kerlin Ward and Ulric Kerensky. They ignore the purely factual, legal elements of the history and replace it with their own emotional reactions, inspired by Vlad Ward's ability to re-make themselves.

I'm merely positing that a century of changing perspectives and biases can create ideas that seem illogical to those who have a dispassionate view derived from nearly fact-perfect sourcebooks. Vikings did not have horns on their helmets, but that misconception remains today - amongst thousands of historical falsehoods. As another example, take a man thought by some to be a traitor. Was Napoleon the Usurper or the Emperor? Ask a Frenchman of 1805, of 1815, of 1840, of 1870, or of 1940. The answers will vary by person, by year, and by the cultural changes that define a nation's identity. You could tell a 3151 Clanner about the facts of the Dragoons case and they will have their own passionate ideas about what truly matters. Perhaps they believe that if the Dragoons stayed true to the Crusader cause, the Clans would have won on Tukayyid. That matters more than the Dragoons' orders.

The Clans have been in contact with the Dragoons for 100 years. If they were traitors, why did Wolf In Exile come to their aid on Outreach? The whole narrative feels forced. The Dragoons being Mercenaries, no question. Traitors; no.

Most likely, the issue is complicated. There are a multitude of perspectives. Maybe it's a Crusader v. Warden thing. Maybe the Exiles were more strongly influenced by Natasha Kerensky's return. Maybe the Exiles were sympathetic because of the similarities between the two groups as exiled Clanners in the Inner Sphere. Clanners are not a monolithic body of people.

[jimdigris]

Whether or not the Dragoons were traitors, Alaric sees them as such.  That is his opinion and we will not change that.  Let us accept that and move on.

[nova_dew]

From 100 years of cultural development of which we are not privy to the details? It's hard to say precisely when the nitty-gritty is in the details. To write a realistic depiction, I would say that no one Clanner stood up and declared that the Dragoons were actually traitors. It came from minuscule changes in attitudes, writings, and culture. Perhaps, over time, the strongly Crusader Wolves developed a pure rejection of the pre-Revival Warden Wolves, including the actions of Khans like Kerlin Ward and Ulric Kerensky. They ignore the purely factual, legal elements of the history and replace it with their own emotional reactions, inspired by Vlad Ward's ability to re-make themselves.

I'm merely positing that a century of changing perspectives and biases can create ideas that seem illogical to those who have a dispassionate view derived from nearly fact-perfect sourcebooks. Vikings did not have horns on their helmets, but that misconception remains today - amongst thousands of historical falsehoods. As another example, take a man thought by some to be a traitor. Was Napoleon the Usurper or the Emperor? Ask a Frenchman of 1805, of 1815, of 1840, of 1870, or of 1940. The answers will vary by person, by year, and by the cultural changes that define a nation's identity. You could tell a 3151 Clanner about the facts of the Dragoons case and they will have their own passionate ideas about what truly matters. Perhaps they believe that if the Dragoons stayed true to the Crusader cause, the Clans would have won on Tukayyid. That matters more than the Dragoons' orders.

Most likely, the issue is complicated. There are a multitude of perspectives. Maybe it's a Crusader v. Warden thing. Maybe the Exiles were more strongly influenced by Natasha Kerensky's return. Maybe the Exiles were sympathetic because of the similarities between the two groups as exiled Clanners in the Inner Sphere. Clanners are not a monolithic body of people.

There's also the fact that Clan Wolf-in-Exile were the original Clan Wolf, legally, (since all clans saw them as the Abjured Clan Wolf, AKA "That Clan Wolf") and since Vlad flat out said that while Clan Jade Wolf changing its name to Clan Wolf didn't mean that they were That Clan Wolf but were a legally distinct Clan Wolf that is made up of former That Clan Wolf people, So Clan Wolf-in-Exile didn't see them as traitors since the Dragoons were still following legitimate orders from a That Clan Wolf Khan, which legally any Clan Wolf Khan was not a Khan of That Clan Wolf, the question is do the Dragoons see Clan Wolf as That Clan Wolf after absorbing the Exiles or do they see them as the legally distinct Clan Wolf that absorbed what was left of That Clan Wolf and not able to rescind an order of a That Clan Wolf Khan's orders? at least until Alaric is Ilkhan since Clan Wolf is legally a Clan or do the Dragoons not see Clan Wolf as a legal Clan?

This nightmare was brought to you by Clan Ghost Bears Legal team  :D

[Jellico]

Snip

So the Lyran Commonwealth is the IlClan?

[nova_dew]

So the Lyran Commonwealth is the IlClan?

They could be if Alaric successfully presses his claim and then absorbs them and since he's Ilkhan he could say his Patrilineal gene's also matter, claim and absorb the Suns too. IlKhan Alaric Wolf-Steiner-Davion of the Federated Wolf Commonwealth, The Sunny Woofer-wealth for short.

[CJC070]

Does the iClan sourcebook tell us what the Wolf-in-Exiles reaction to the Wolf Dragoon’s 30 pieces of silver or can we just speculate right now?

[Orwell84]

Does the iClan sourcebook tell us what the Wolf-in-Exiles reaction to the Wolf Dragoon’s 30 pieces of silver or can we just speculate right now?

Just speculate. But you raise an interesting point, given that the Dragoons and Exiles worked together for decades. At least some of the latter might not feel too pleased at their former comrades being treat so badly.

[CJC070]

Just speculate. But you raise an interesting point, given that the Dragoons and Exiles worked together for decades. At least some of the latter might not feel too pleased at their former comrades being treat so badly.

Makes you think with some former Republic soldiers going merc and Wolf-in-Exile less than pleased with Alaric the Wolf Dragoon’s may be a back to its former size sooner than later.

[nova_dew]

After yesterday's AMA I don't think the Bears are going to come to the ilClans rescue, i think they are going to have a crisis of faith, hopefully it means full absorption of Clan and IS peoples in the Dominion into something truly a mix of both cultures that make them a better faction, that both CGB and FRR fans can enjoy equally, but then again this is battletech and positive growth is in short supply.

As for the WiE and Dragoons, official they support Alaric's treatment of them, because wolfy-paw-ers combined! so do the Falcons.

[Lanceman]

After yesterday's AMA I don't think the Bears are going to come to the ilClans rescue, i think they are going to have a crisis of faith, hopefully it means full absorption of Clan and IS peoples in the Dominion into something truly a mix of both cultures that make them a better faction, that both CGB and FRR fans can enjoy equally, but then again this is battletech and positive growth is in short supply.

As for the WiE and Dragoons, official they support Alaric's treatment of them, because wolfy-paw-ers combined! so do the Falcons.

Could you expand on this a bit, I missed the AMA.

[Manchu]

One other topic which might be interesting to see the Council address at some point is whether or not to formally welcome Clan Goliath Scorpion back from the Periphery sub-board into the fold.

I analyze this possibility at length in the CSA thread here. Specifically:

From CSA’s POV, war with the Scorpion Empire is essentially inevitable, regardless of the latter’s relations with the ilClan. The Aggressors are obviously chomping at the bit for war. But considering the potential threat projection of the Scorpion Empire by 3140, even the staunchest Bastion supporters will realize that (a) peace with the Scorpion Empire is impossible considering the WoR ideology of IS taint and, given that, (b) there is no possibility of maintaining Homeworlds isolationism without at least permanently crippling the Scorpion Empire.

Thanks to developments in Bastion-Aggressor politics since 3090, it isn’t clear whether the HWCs would wage unrestrained warfare against the Scorpion Empire or elect to fight them according to Clan custom. What I mean here is, what if the ilClan claim triggers another major reconfiguration of HWC politics? Now, this is a huge, open-ended question, but all I mean in this specific context is, if some significant portion of CGS rejects the ilClan claim, there might be room for a partial reconciliation between the HWCs and CGS, as per Crichell repurposing the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf in the wake of the Great Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. From CSA’s traditionally pragmatic POV, if an Annihilation can be thus repurposed then why not an Abjuration?

[nova_dew]

Could you expand on this a bit, I missed the AMA.

link to the start of that section of the AMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6H2Oh--mxs&t=1306s


I'll edit this with a link to the AMA, currently working on timestamping it (not sure if my sanity can take going back and doing the others), there's a lot of questions and a LOT of info dropped, it may take a while it's 2:10:00 minute video

[Dahmin_Toran]

Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

[Nibs]

"Hey! Stop bullying the Nova Cats! That's our job!"

[Natasha Kerensky]

Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

Alaric (and the plot) just needs a casus belli to justify war with the Houses in general and the Combine in particular.  And maybe a way to rally former Nova Cats and other Clanners to his side.  Whether he understands all the nuances of who did what to the Nova Cats — and more importantly whether he cares about all those nuances — is beside the point for him (and probably the plot).

[Mecha82]

Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

Alaric is politician like his gene mother was so it's all politics to him as well as being pragmatic. So in that sense what Clan Nova Cat did back in day doesn't matter to him as long as he can benefit from Clan Nova Cat's annihilation at hands of Combine. Besides maybe this way he can get remnants of Clan Nova Cat (Spirit Cats) to his side.