Creating Sibkos: A Whole Slew of Questions

[BirdDog]

Good morning all,

As I return to Battletech after a years-long hiatus, I started getting back into the old things I used to love - painting miniatures, playing the PC games, and a bit of RP.

"Back in the day" by RP character in both tabletop and an online league was a member of Clan Coyote.
We had a pretty basic way of doing things, was fun but looking back, not overly immersive and, in the end, I had a lot more questions that I never bothered looking into answers for since it wasn't relevant to the gameplay.

Now, I figure I'll actually ask those questions.  Overall I'm looking at "general practice" scenarios - I was a member of Clan Coyote before, I don't know if that's the direction I'll go again.  The Jade Falcons were a childhood favorite that I might return to...who knows.

1.  Creating a new Sibko
-So I know that the gender of each 'donor' doesn't really matter, as the scientists can pretty much decide who the matrilineal line will be for the purposes of bloodheritage and which Bloodname can be claimed later on.  Is there any method to this determination? Also, what determines the Phenotype?  There are instances I've seen of bloodnames listed as being, say, an Elemental Bloodname, being carried by a Mechwarrior.  How does this come about?  (NOTE: These instances tend to be a little dubious...i.e. Aisa Thastus in MW4: Mercs, so they may just be mistakes)

-Can a sibko have multiple phenotypes represented? Or, would there just be a couple different sibkos made from the same combination of genes (if using a General Bloodname) but one is all Mechwarrior phenotypes, one all Elemental, etc., etc.?

-Is there a canon or generally accepted "sibko naming" convention? It seems like if a certain combination of genes works, there could be multiple sibkos with that same combo, so just calling it the "Ramon Mattlov/Tania Pryde Sibko" seems like it might be less than useful down the road if referring to a very specific group.

-There have been a couple references of characters with different bloodnames stating they were from the same sibko.  I vaguely recall reading that sometimes members of difference creches may be merged into a single sibko, and therefore you could have a sibko with multiple bloodheritages.  Is this still a thing or again was that a one-off situation or a mistake?  It was in a novel IIRC but I don't recall which - one of the more recent ones I read though.



I'm thinking of basically making an excel sheet of all the bloodnames for the Clan (once I choose one) and just using a series of dice rolls to determine which two names to use and then which will be the patrilineal and which will be matrilineal, and then go from there, but I want as much background info as possible.

Just for fun...I love writing backgrounds and being as accurate and detail-oriented as possible, even if it won't have any bearing on the actual gameplay.

[AlphaMirage]

Based on my research for my own fan fictions. I have concluded a few things about Sibkos besides the fact that they are extremely wasteful. Very little of this is canon as even though the Jade Phoenix trilogy gives us some Sibko scenes they don't talk about creche or selection. Much of it is in fact closer to the Halo universe which gives us a similar elite tyke-bomb training process.

First you have to start with the creche phase. We have no hard data on how long it takes to grow someone in an Iron Womb but I expect the Scientists take the minimal safe time to clean out and put another in. Lets say 200 or so days per 100 Individuals created from the same pairing. You have loss in the creche phase from any combination of hard living, accidents, disease, or neglect from their 'parents' either forced on civilians or raised by retired warriors in camps.

The Clans are really selective so say the top 20 survivors of that particular Creche are selected to move forward with Warrior Training. So five+ Creches feed into a single 100 person Sibko. Depending on the Clan these can either be single phenotype or multi-phenotype. General bloodlines can be mixed into any phenotypical group plus you have the lesser names. Thus we have the situations like the Ranna Kerensky and Carew Nygren one.

I suspect Sibko naming conventions are more attributed to where they trained rather than who was trained there. You would have something like 'Tamaron Training Site-47 3027 Alpha' for the Sibko heritage.

Determining Phenotype for lesser names is tricky as we have no information regarding the selection process other than it is rigorous. They are likely screened for particular traits that can be accentuated using a particular training regime. Strong guys become Elementals, fast reflexes Mechwarrior, small profile Aerospace Pilot.

[CVB]

I don't see myself as an expert in Clan matters, so I will leave the main questions  to others. Just a hint: Operation Klondike, pp.33-37 lists the names of every original member of every clan and will provide an excellent base for this

I'm thinking of basically making an excel sheet of all the bloodnames for the Clan (once I choose one)

.

You will then just have to account for absorptions, annihilations, reavings, captured gene material etc. ... </slight sarcasm>

[Alan Grant]

Bloodname House Leaders negotiate with other Bloodname House Leaders to create sibkos. They negotiate the genetic pairings with their peers. That in turn also governs who is going to be the maternal/paternal DNA.

If you are a Bloodname House Leader, of course you want to create some warriors who will eventually earn bloodnames in your House. That means you need some sibko cadets created with where the maternal DNA comes from a member of your House, as that's how the eligibility works.

But you don't always get that, it's a negotiation with some give and take involved. You cut a deal and and maybe that deal nets you a sibko born of a maternal heritage in your House. But the next sibko is born with the paternal heritage of another House. So sometimes you are contributing DNA to the paternal DNA for another House.

As for the choice of Phenotype. The needs of the Clan play a big role in this. Also some Bloodname House leaders want to create warriors of a specific phenotype. Some Bloodname Houses have specialized, others remain generalized. This gets rather political. It has a lot to do with the intentions and plans of the Bloodname House Leader. Perhaps your Bloodname has always specialized in one phenotype that it's warriors have excelled it. But it's weakness in the other 2 is seen as a liability. A Bloodname House Leader comes along who wants to see the Bloodname House get more generalized and produce more successful warriors of all three phenotypes. So they start negotiating with Bloodname Houses that produce great warriors of those other phenotypes, to create some sibkos and try to push the Bloodname House in that direction.

Or maybe that's not the priority. Perhaps the priority is greater quality of warriors overall and arranging pairings with some of the best genetic legacies available to boost the odds of that happening. It just depends.

We've seen Clans use both sibkos where all the cadets are the same phenotype, and sibkos where the cadets are of a mixed phenotype (the Wolves get a big nod for doing this intentionally to foster better understanding between different warrior types). We've seen Clans create sibkos where all the members are of the same genetic parents, and we've seen sibkos where the genetic heritage is a mixed bag, but the cadets are formed into a sibko and from that point on they stay together. There's a lot of variation on this and it's not an error or fluke, it's been called out as the norm to see variations in practices from Clan to Clan, era to era and a lot of other factors. To some degree it probably depends on the needs of the Clan. But also it's going to be rooted in how many genetic legacies a Bloodname House has. A Bloodname House with 25 active genetic legacies will need more warriors in general than a minor Bloodname House with just 5 or 10. So it's easy to imagine creating an entire 100 cadet sibko of Kerensky cadets, and the next sibko over has cadets from 5 different minor bloodnames mixed in together.

For sibko naming conventions we've seen a little of everything. We've seen things like "Red Paw Sibko." If there's a naming convention across the board we haven't seen it. So you have a lot of creative freedom here. A lot of the earlier Clan books put more weight on different training facilities, associating them with different traits. For example in the original Clan Wolf Sourcebook (page 98 a warrior named Lorenzo Ghiberti was noted for being from a controversial training facility that put emphasis on the warriors learning about all of the Clan religions as a part of their early upbringing.

Some training facilities are just held in a higher esteem than others. For example the Clan Wolf Sourcebook called out the Boyington Orbital Sibko as a facility known for turning out top skill pilots.

Think of it a little like the Inner Sphere Military Academies. They emphasize different things and although they work from a common approved curriculum and standards there's a lot of more subtle variations. So it's possible that the training facility is naming the sibko and that a lot of decisions surrounding sibko may be made by the training facility.

[BirdDog]

These are all great, thanks!

When I was younger I never really delved into the politics of the Clans, so that's definitely useful.

[BirdDog]

Small necro of my own thread.

As I've continued poking around the boards and the interwebz, I've probably confused myself more than I already was.

So, let's go with a more specific hypothetical. Clan Snow Raven, with a warrior that is eligible for the McKenna General Bloodname, and is a Aerospace Pilot.

Using this an example since I read a bit of ER 3145 and Sterling McKenna's entry - she appears to have the eyes of an aerospace pilot and was a notable pilot in practice - but, the entry makes it seems like she became an aerospace pilot because she tested well and showed an aptitude for it, as opposed to being "bred" specifically for it.

For years I was under the impression there was a certain amount of genetic engineering vs. targeted breeding, but the more I'm reading the more I think I was mistaken.

So conceivably, in a xyz-McKenna sibko, there could be a hundred kids, and they potentially have no idea if they'll end up as pilots, mechwarriors, elementals, etc until they grow a bit, start to develop those traits/markers, and test for certain fields?

I mean I'm sure some will have an idea early on, like Elementals, but couldn't this also mean that you could potentially end up with Mechwarriors that have some "defining" aerospace pilots traits like the larger eyes, or larger-than-average Aerospace pilots because an individual tested exceptionally well in one field or another?

[Generic Clanner 24601]

McKenna is a general Bloodname, so there is likely more leeway than a Harper which is an Elemental line. A Harper sibko might have some experience with Mechs or Aerospace fighters, but unless they show unusual aptitude, they will be trained exclusively as Elementals.

Being a general Bloodline could also explain her having some Aerospace Traits. I wouldn't be shock if there was a larger variation in general sibkos than in more specific Bloodnames. Like there were probably some "close to, but not what you would actually consider Elemental" Mechwarriors in her sibko. Hell, there might have been some Elementals with Aerospace eyes or Aerospace phenotypes that were a bit more muscular than most. Of course, this is assuming a multiple parent sibko. One of a single pairing would only have a gamut between MechWarrior and Aerospace phenotypes (likely being the result of a cross phenotype sibko).

EDIT: I hadn't considered cross-phenotype sibkos, but it would makes sense for general Bloodnames to do that if they are not specifically trying to create a sibko to fulfill a need of a specific phenotype (of the Clan or just the Bloodname so they don't become a specialty phenotype). Good catch.

[Alan Grant]

Small necro of my own thread.

As I've continued poking around the boards and the interwebz, I've probably confused myself more than I already was.

So, let's go with a more specific hypothetical. Clan Snow Raven, with a warrior that is eligible for the McKenna General Bloodname, and is a Aerospace Pilot.

Using this an example since I read a bit of ER 3145 and Sterling McKenna's entry - she appears to have the eyes of an aerospace pilot and was a notable pilot in practice - but, the entry makes it seems like she became an aerospace pilot because she tested well and showed an aptitude for it, as opposed to being "bred" specifically for it.

For years I was under the impression there was a certain amount of genetic engineering vs. targeted breeding, but the more I'm reading the more I think I was mistaken.

So conceivably, in a xyz-McKenna sibko, there could be a hundred kids, and they potentially have no idea if they'll end up as pilots, mechwarriors, elementals, etc until they grow a bit, start to develop those traits/markers, and test for certain fields?

I mean I'm sure some will have an idea early on, like Elementals, but couldn't this also mean that you could potentially end up with Mechwarriors that have some "defining" aerospace pilots traits like the larger eyes, or larger-than-average Aerospace pilots because an individual tested exceptionally well in one field or another?

Generally speaking, what I've always seen in every book/source I've ever read and I've studied the Clans quite a bit. Individual trueborn Cadets are brought with a specific phenotype and thus role (i.e. mechwarrior, ASF pilot etc) in mind.

That's the norm.

Then we see in some Clans, like the Horses and Bears, if they fail their first ToP they may be routed to a different warrior subcaste to see if they do better there.

But we do see odd little exceptions and situational exceptions. It's important to think of these things as general guidelines and not absolutes.

To use a Bears example, in FM: Warden Clans on page 90 the commander of the 140th Strike Cluster, Boris Jorgennson. A sibmate of Khan Bjorn. After watching his sibmate's ToP in ASFs (he failed his first as a mechwarrior), Boris voluntarily resigned his warrior status (meaning mechwarrior status) and retested as a pilot as well.

Here's another one. Among Clan Wolf in Exile, in FM: Warden Clans page 158 we get Galaxy Commander Craig Fetladral. He is an Elemental turned mechwarrior. He sustained injuries that made it impossible to wear the armor. So he became a mechwarrior. He might have just been granted permission to do that. But I could easily imagine him launching a Trial of Possession for the right to train as a mechwarrior.

Regarding mixed phenotypes, we've seen the Horses experiment with tankwarriors. We've seen the Cloud Cobras experiment with combining aspects of Elemental and ASF phenotypes to create Elementals suited for flying Elemental suits like the Sylph.

So here and there we get these little examples that tell us that for the most part, Trueborn warriors are bred with a specific phenotype in mind. But there are situations where they diverge from that. They are notable enough that they tend to get special mention, thus likely rare.


Now your particular example about Sterling McKenna comes with a lot of question marks. In the new era, much has changed. I'm not sure which Clan practices may have changed (or at least been experimented with).

But there's a specific issue with Sterling McKenna. The Snow Ravens have the naval bloodline, and train naval warriors straight from the sibko.

It's been said, thinking of FM: 3145 in particular, that in this new era, the Snow Ravens are reactivating their fleet (warships, jumpships, dropships).

That means they suddenly need a lot of ship crews, including warrior officers. And it takes time to just breed new naval sibkos from scratch, about 20 years, too much time.

The Snow Ravens naval bloodline/phenotype is considered a sub-category of aerospace phenotype.


** Warning, from here, this is really just my speculation****


So its very possible that Sterling McKenna got caught up in a canvassing process of the warriors and/or sibkos to look for suitable personnel to shift to the naval branch. But due to those attributes mentioned, she didn't get routed to a naval track, she stayed on an aerospace pilot track.

It's also possible that the aerospace and naval bloodlines (and phenotypes) are so similar, that in this case the cadets are considered to be possibly suitable for either role, and are evaluated and then routed accordingly based on early training and aptitude results. That might be standard procedure in this new era, or a situation specific to the 3145 era and this Clan's naval reactivation.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Did the clans water down the pilot phenotype? I doubt Harrison would have been interested in Sterling if she hewed too close to the over-large head and eyes features of the type.

[Alan Grant]

The aerospace pilot phenotype sits in a weird place and always has. We've had art of pilots and naval warriors that made them look like aliens almost.

We've had other art of ASF pilots that makes them look very normal. You might use descriptive terms like short or slender to describe that individual, but otherwise they they can pass for a normal human being on the streets of an Inner Sphere world.

We've had art that fell kinda in between that, relatively normal looking body from the neck down, but the head and eye proportions are a little off.

We had a Goliath Scorpion Loremaster who was "uncommonly tall for a pilot."

I can't remember the title. But there was a BattleCorps fiction centered in Clan Cloud Cobra. The main Cloud Cobra character was a pilot. From his perspective, Clan Coyote pilots were bigger than normal (normal I guess being Clan Cloud Cobra pilots).

So its hard to say. I've always suspected that the different ASF bloodlines varied wildly on this front. They could all technically be of the same phenotype. But one bloodline is renowned for looking almost like a different species entirely, while this other bloodline over here, retains the desired genetic traits, but did a better job (or cared more about) packaging that within more normal looking human beings and making the phenotype distinctions more subtle.

We tend to think of all the trueborns of the phenotype being about the same. But genetic experimentation within different Clans and different Bloodname Houses was a thing. Some achieved greater successes than others. Some may have even had different desired outcomes.

So Sterling McKenna could have looked more alien-like or could have looked much more like a typical Inner Sphere human with just subtlety larger and perhaps even attractive eyes.

Heck, maybe the Snow Ravens have changed their phenotype development a lot in the decades since the Jihad, DESIRING warriors that looked more akin to human norms while retaining as much of the martial traits as possible, because of a desire to interact easily with the Outworlds Alliance or the Fed Suns population without making them feel like they are interacting with a different species.

That last part is just a theory/possibility.

[rebs]

Yes, the General Bloodnames look like normal humans, yet can be trained up for MechWarriors or ASF.  Mix an Elemental phenotype bloodline and you end up with Kerensky, Hazen, or Khatib Elementals...

I believe the McKennas are a general Bloodname, so they don't look like freaky ASF phenotypes with bug eyes. 

[BirdDog]

I used Sterling "Vampire Queen" McKenna as the example because her artwork does have larger eyes - not freakishly huge, but they are on the larger side.  Comparing that to the rest of the artwork in ER 3145 and such seems to indicate that was a deliberate choice by the artist, as opposed to just the artstyle...so I think she fell in to that "in-between" style of artwork for ASF's.

Plus, as pointed out, a lot may have changed before 3112 or whenever she was decanted (book isn't in front of me at the moment), AND, as also pointed out...she has Plot Genetics(tm) to keep her from being TOO Alien ASF-y  ;D

[rebs]

Right on, it was a good example. 

[ANS Kamas P81]

Talk of the large eyes of the Aerospace pilots makes me wonder if something along the lines of Alita: Battle Angel was what the intent was.  Her eyes are bigger than anyone else's, certainly, but if you watch the movie she manages to climb well out of the uncanny valley.  Rosa Salazar's got an already very expressive face, but the eyes really work for me - and I started off hating it with the "hur dur anime girl has big eyes" explanation we got.



So that's how I see the ASF phenotype, just that little bit larger in the eyes and maybe short and slender overall.  Lithe, I think, might be the best description.

[rebs]

I would trial for those genes if I were the IlKhan!  ;D