Have to ask: Who uses LAMs?

[abou]

And if so, what ruleset do you go with?

I know, I know... some persons find them silly. But I still like them and have a full stable of the Unseen sculpts. I just want advice on how you bring them to your games.

[House Davie Merc]

I used to use them all the time .  Not because they were any better
then anything else but just because they had a variety of uses and
they were nostalgic and fun .
(Especially in 3025 era play before the tech changes)
They were fun to use and really served more to confuse any
enemy that wasn't used to dealing with them .

The fact that you are asking which rule set we are using illustrates
one of the biggest reasons I stopped using them . Most players go
by the current rules , and they strip away a lot of the utility they used
to have .  Also for throw down matches the bulk of the players I've
gamed with prefer to use Battle Value 2 to balance forces.
IIRC the MULE still lists the BV 2 cost for LAMs as NA .
When you calculate it using the current formula it's to costly to be
worth it .   

I've got a whole shelf in my Plano case that's LAMs including my own
custom Project Phoenix Phoenix Hawk LAM . I've never seen another one done .

I run Warrior H-7C VTOLs in their place if they have to fight and
Armored Ferret VTOLs as scouts .

I do miss running them .

[Red Pins]

Mostly as they seem to be intended, scouts and distractions.  Mostly unsuccessfully.

At some point, they got banned from the group I played with for the normal reasons, and I came up with 'Partial AirMechs' as a house rule.  If you still have a group willing to play with them, I'm a little envious.

[Wrangler]

I run with guys who use them as their main ride. One current cheif issues right now is that to run all aspects of a LAM especially if u are using stated character with one is your running it off three different books because of the skill aspecs the character needs. 

While Megamek is not easy beastie to run on, LAMs can be done to most part effectively if u are paying attention to the map and modes your turning to.

[RifleMech]

Used to use them all the time but then munchkins ruined them under the old rules. Now we don't use them much. Not that we get to play much. The last time we used the current rules minus the turn modes. We kept crashing with them. We thought about House Ruling the targeting mods but didn't get that far. Life got in the way.

Now our gaming is mostly discussion. When it comes to LAMs we use mixed rules. For construction, we ignore tech restrictions all the way up to the old anything goes construction rules. The last only when we want to be silly or how to get things to work without being munchkiny. Game wise we do use the more modern crits (Avionics and Landing Gear) and movement rules but we skip the turn modes, and some other anti-LAM restrictions and just use regular targeting mods.

[Wrangler]

Used to use them all the time but then munchkins ruined them under the old rules. Now we don't use them much. Not that we get to play much. The last time we used the current rules minus the turn modes. We kept crashing with them. We thought about House Ruling the targeting mods but didn't get that far. Life got in the way.

Now our gaming is mostly discussion. When it comes to LAMs we use mixed rules. For construction, we ignore tech restrictions all the way up to the old anything goes construction rules. The last only when we want to be silly or how to get things to work without being munchkiny. Game wise we do use the more modern crits (Avionics and Landing Gear) and movement rules but we skip the turn modes, and some other anti-LAM restrictions and just use regular targeting mods.

You just use the modern rules. LAMs arent very munchin at all. Hybrid mode the WIGE rules without crashing part. Super jumps aren't issue either.

[Syzyx]

In our group LAMs are hugely popular. This might be considered odd since about two thirds of us have never seen Robotech.

In any event, similar to RifleMech, we ignore some of the most modern ruleset: turn modes are just annoying and don't actually contribute much to the game. And the inability to carry when in airmech mode is also tossed out.

Otherwise we're pretty close to RAW with the latest ruleset.

[Col Toda]

Only one player in my group ever used them using both rules sets . It is a non trivial effort just to use them well period under any rules set. For me never had the incentive to use them as I was trying to maximize firepower and heat balance using on board Arrow IV . It was never a resource or money issue for me it just did not fit . The training and skill sets to pilot was too much a pain to get .I think the most I have ever seen in the field at once was 6 in the old days . Under the new rules one recon commando unit . That's it .

[Sartris]

i have all the minis but it's doubtful they'll ever see play

[truetanker]

Under the original AeroTech rules, it was easy, but once they landed on the map, CityTech rules came into play, as those were the most advanced rules out there. ( BattleTech had simple Basic and Advanced rules, CityTech encompassed both Basic, Advance and Combined Arms rule sets into one. )

Though technically, CityTech was BattleTech, hence I was overjoy when they produced and printed Rules of Warfare, BattleTech Manual! Man oh man, the sweet smell of printed paper with pages (!) upon pages (!) of information using all three books with construction rules for fortifications, special rules for creating scenarios, based on that time's methods, and the use of placing metal on metal, be it Aero, Aquatic or Land base.

Then the ' It's NERFin' stupid a LAM can jump and glide more spaces than my speedy Mech! ', which brought the situation to a halt. That and the HG crappy BAN against the UnSeen! ( Glad that's over and done! )

But yeah, fun times...

TT

[Mendrugo]

I got traumatized by a custom LAM in 3025-era play (28 MGs - jump into rear arc, braaaaaaaap, move on to the next victim...I used it as the inspiration for the Linebacker I).  However, when I tried to achieve that same level of movement-based invulnerability in a later Clan-era engagement, an Incubus with a Clan LPL and Clan veteran pilot took at look at the +5 movement modifier, chuckled, and sliced the LAM in half. 

They suffer from the same problem as most Lights in the era of targeting computers, pulse lasers, and genetic upgrades - speed is no longer armor, and any light that becomes too much of a threat draws sufficient fire to bring it down quickly.

[RifleMech]

I'm glad to see that there's others who like and still use LAMs.

You just use the modern rules. LAMs arent very munchin at all. Hybrid mode the WIGE rules without crashing part. Super jumps aren't issue either.

I never thought LAMs were  munchkin. Some of the things people did with them were but then all units can be. We never super jumped either. We always said if it was a jump or flying and moved accordingly. As for the modern WIGE rules, for the most part they're okay and go a long way to fixing the past problems. The nerfs though push things in the other direction though.  :(

I got traumatized by a custom LAM in 3025-era play (28 MGs - jump into rear arc, braaaaaaaap, move on to the next victim...I used it as the inspiration for the Linebacker I).  However, when I tried to achieve that same level of movement-based invulnerability in a later Clan-era engagement, an Incubus with a Clan LPL and Clan veteran pilot took at look at the +5 movement modifier, chuckled, and sliced the LAM in half. 

They suffer from the same problem as most Lights in the era of targeting computers, pulse lasers, and genetic upgrades - speed is no longer armor, and any light that becomes too much of a threat draws sufficient fire to bring it down quickly.

28 MGs!  :o 

Tech has made being a LAM dangerous but I think the WiGE movement, especially the extra MP for flying higher make LAMs more vulnerable to even older tech units.

[Wrangler]

I'm glad to see that there's others who like and still use LAMs.

I never thought LAMs were  munchkin. Some of the things people did with them were but then all units can be. We never super jumped either. We always said if it was a jump or flying and moved accordingly. As for the modern WIGE rules, for the most part they're okay and go a long way to fixing the past problems. The nerfs though push things in the other direction though.  :(

Super jump still a thing but not as badly.  WiGEs can also be fitted with Jump Jets, there at least one with it. Lordy is that interesting Ground Effect Vehicle! 
That being said,  its up to the group as whole how they will handle things and what stuff they want to do keep things balanced and playable.  That's my opinion.

[abou]

Thanks for the input. I pulled out the rules again and flipped through them: both from IO and the first Compendium. I just sort of groan when I look at the rules in IO (reference this table; reference that table; reference table in other book; etc).

My first step would be to just give the pilot the same skill values for both aerospace and 'mech classes so I don't have to keep track of which skill set is used when. What also disappointments me is that airmech mode seems neutered compared to previously. Unless I have misread the rules, originally it was a -1 to-hit bonus when moving in an airmech and firing, but is now more difficult to fire at targets. Did I get that right?

[Weirdo]

The idea seems to have been to give players a reason to actually use the other modes. Before, there wasn't any real reason to ever transform out of Airmech mode. Now, players are encouraged to use Airmech mode to cover large swathes of mapsheet, and BattleMech mode to do, well, battle.

[Elmoth]

We have used them occasionally. But then, in alpha strike they do not suck as much as you say they do in classic BT. They are useful on the tabletop and cheap in points. Cheaper than any medium mech. They have very high TMM and pack a relevant bang, so they are glass cannons in alpha strike. The usual things people say about recon mechs in the discussions (fast, manoeuvrable, hard to hit but brittle) are the defining elements of alpha strike LAMs.

So far we have used sparingly, but we have a project in our hands that might see them more used since they would be PC mechs.

But yeah, useful and more used than a lot of other 3025 staples.

[RifleMech]

Super jump still a thing but not as badly.  WiGEs can also be fitted with Jump Jets, there at least one with it. Lordy is that interesting Ground Effect Vehicle! 
That being said,  its up to the group as whole how they will handle things and what stuff they want to do keep things balanced and playable.  That's my opinion.

Unless you're using the old rules I don't know how. You can either hover a little bit or use the modified WiGE Rules.
I don't remember that one. I'll have to look it up.  >:D
Very true. It seems that the most common response is to ban things from the table though.

The idea seems to have been to give players a reason to actually use the other modes. Before, there wasn't any real reason to ever transform out of Airmech mode. Now, players are encouraged to use Airmech mode to cover large swathes of mapsheet, and BattleMech mode to do, well, battle.

We had reason to transform on our table. We had the Clan Invasion. The -3 targeting mod from a Targeting Computer coupled with the Clan Large Pulse Lasers along with their range and damage of made it dangerous to stay in the air. LAMs don't like crashing. The TC and LB-X2 and it's range was pretty annoying too. After that came MaxTech. The TC rules had changed but we had the Anti-Aircraft Targeting System which gave us a -2 mod, for a -4 with Pulse Lasers. Scary!  :yikes:

[Weirdo]

And what about games set during the heyday of LAMs, when tarcomps don't exist, and pulse lasers and clusterguns are far less prevalent?

[Mendrugo]

And what about games set during the heyday of LAMs, when tarcomps don't exist, and pulse lasers and clusterguns are far less prevalent?

That’s when my four UrbanMechs with AC/20s, four Centurions with AC/20s and four Schreks die without being able to lay a glove on it.

[abou]

The idea seems to have been to give players a reason to actually use the other modes. Before, there wasn't any real reason to ever transform out of Airmech mode. Now, players are encouraged to use Airmech mode to cover large swathes of mapsheet, and BattleMech mode to do, well, battle.

That is definitely a valid counterpoint and reason. The Clans notwithstanding, are they any more or less fragile than they used to be in the pre-Clan era?

How do the WoB Spectral LAMs hold up?

[RifleMech]

And what about games set during the heyday of LAMs, when tarcomps don't exist, and pulse lasers and clusterguns are far less prevalent?

There were usually some Riflemechs, Jagermechs, Partisan AA Tanks, Pike and other long ranged weapon Tanks to keep the LAMs busy.  Even in Mech only games, those flipable arms made it hard to get into rear arcs unscathed. Of course now they've got AA Targeting and Flak Ammo.

[Kojak]

How do the WoB Spectral LAMs hold up?

I used a Pwwka as part of an OpFor earlier this year and it was pretty nasty, not to mention just a hoot to use, zipping all over the board in AirMech mode.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How do the WoB Spectral LAMs hold up?

Well, I can say with certainty that they really don't like being subjected to massed LB-X fire.  The only time I've played with LAMs I was running a Defiance and swatted two out of the air with buckshot.

[RifleMech]

That is definitely a valid counterpoint and reason. The Clans notwithstanding, are they any more or less fragile than they used to be in the pre-Clan era?

How do the WoB Spectral LAMs hold up?

LAM's fragility is as good or worse depending on what components are used in it's construction.

The Spectral LAMs as fast as the older LAMs in AirMech and Fighter modes. Mech speeds vary from the same to a little slower but the slower ones also have more armor. Also they all use DHS, Clan weapons, and small cockpits. Skill wise their a bit more difficult to use with the small cockpit but the range and damage of the Clan weapons and a bit more armor make them more dangerous. Of course the same weapons are being fired at them so even with more armor they won't last long.

[Wrangler]

Rifleman, remember as well that any WOB related Mech including the LAMs use the vehicle interface cyberware. Which gives the pilot bonuses.

[Weirdo]

*Can* use the cyberware. Completely different beast from *always* uses or *must* use. There is no guarantee or requirement whatsoever that a Waneta or Pwwka will have a cyborg pilot.

[RifleMech]

A Cyborg pilot would make the LAM perform better.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A cyborg pilot makes anything perform better.

[Wrangler]

There difference between Cyborg and someone has implant.  Its never been clear if implants require entire body completely changed.

A decker in Shadow Run setting, only has cyber implants, but he/she not a robot with brain.  If you go by the old Manei Domini rules, a pilot would get a Level 3 Vehicular Direct Neural Interface .  Which gives the pilot -1 to gunnery & piloting rolls.  There non-roleplaying rules for such a pilot.   Additionally, your pilot using the thing likely will need Paint Shunt to avoid rolling 2D6 (Total Warfare rules) to avoid going out cold / damage on  a 8 or greater.

Having fitted with small cockpit, you get +1 for piloting. Which you don't want to do in a LAM of all things.  However, second implant, a Level 5 (1 out 5) is the Buffered Vehicular Direct Neural Interface basically cancels out the negative effects of a Small Cockpit.

Spectral LAMs were used by the Domini. I doubt there would be meat sticks driving thoses.  However, the Blake had produced some additional Royal version of the Classic LAMs.  If you read the Spotlight for Cresent Hawks.  The Hawks break contract, to salvage a Spectral LAM to repair the Unit's original Phoenix Hawk LAM belonging to the founder, Jason Youngblood.

[BATTLEMASTER]

I've been working to play around with LAMs more.  One of things I don't like about the original canon trio is that they're not the most ideal battlemechs, except for any variant of the Phoenix Hawk LAM.  I've taken it upon myself to make some custom house-flavored LAMs that use introtech.  And now I'm about to dive into more custom stuff that ignores their current tech limitations, like no endo, FF, or XL engines.