Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 203010 times)

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #150 on: 18 December 2018, 11:06:52 »
Guys, warship pictures are fine, discussion is fine, but we're edging VERY close to modern politics with a few of these links.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #151 on: 18 December 2018, 15:22:30 »
Why not Japan have a light carrier. The carrier is more than capable of flying off F-35s, its the size of a Wasp. Not in Tonnage at least.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #152 on: 18 December 2018, 15:29:45 »
Japan's and the World's first purpose built aircraft carrier, the Hōshō.



The Hōshō was commissioned in 1922, originally designated as a  Seaplane Tender.However the design was re-worked to become what we know now as a flush-deck Aircraft Carrier.  She was completely unarmored, would carrying capacity of only 15 aircraft.

She first saw action in 1937, where she was used to engage the National Chinese aircraft in the Sino-JapaneseWar, however the ship wasn't small air compliment would not prove to be as good in combat. The ship would be return home to to act as a training carrier.

She would only other action she took was a secondary role in the Battle of Midway during World War II. She gave the main fleet some air protection, scouting, and anti-submarine coverage.

By the end of the war, it desperate need for carriers, she would be expanded with side flight deck and lengthen hull.  This proved to be too late for the war efforts.  She survived the war and was used to return troops home in 1946 before being scrapped.

Sort of ironic, now that the Izuma being refitted as a VTOL carrier. She going nearly have same air compliment as this old girl.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #153 on: 18 December 2018, 16:12:04 »
It is carrying Karnovs, right?

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #154 on: 18 December 2018, 17:02:33 »
Why not Japan have a light carrier. The carrier is more than capable of flying off F-35s, its the size of a Wasp. Not in Tonnage at least.
Entirely rule-4 reasons, it's extremely political with the Japanese.  Suffice it to say they're taking deep refuge in the way everyone's renaming their ships these days and breaking away from the typical descriptions codified through WWII.  "That's not a frigate, it's a littoral combat ship!"  And so on.  Good lord, most "destroyers" these days have the firepower of WWII battleships and would be major surface combatants anyway, but nobody calls them that.

Anyone know if the Japanese are optioning straight F-35Bs or are they going to go for licensed production of a J type with local avionics and whatnot, like the F-15J and F-2?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #155 on: 18 December 2018, 17:16:31 »
What I read said straight -35Bs and also buying unspecified F-35 subclass for their land-based forces.  Not really sure the F-35 is a good replacement for the F-15Js they have anyway but it does keep their logistics simpler as long as their -35Js are not too different than the -35B.  I get that the Eagle is now a old frame and they need replacements which would incorporate the technology advancements in avionics and materials . . . but all the analysis I have read says the -35 is a generalist that is at best OK in most the roles its planned for, and tries to do it on the cheap (ish, I mean its a current gen fighter).  If they modify the -35B into their own VSTOL version, would it officially be the -35BJ?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #156 on: 18 December 2018, 18:20:18 »
From my understanding of the F-35 program (and I am 6 years out of touch), it is a worldwide partnership program. So it generally plans to avoid having J-models, I-models, S-models etc. All the program partners sign on for an A, B or C model with different Block releases but the idea is that the program partners will all share a pool of spare engines, avionics and parts, so interchangeability of these parts is paramount over customised local fitouts.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #157 on: 18 December 2018, 19:40:49 »
From what I remember the Hosho class has space for 28 Helos. I'm sure the Air wing for a "sea control" ship will be something like 18 or 20 F35s and 6 Seahawks just like the Wasp airwing. That's a pretty strong force if the F35s all work.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #158 on: 18 December 2018, 20:02:39 »
From my understanding of the F-35 program (and I am 6 years out of touch), it is a worldwide partnership program. So it generally plans to avoid having J-models, I-models, S-models etc. All the program partners sign on for an A, B or C model with different Block releases but the idea is that the program partners will all share a pool of spare engines, avionics and parts, so interchangeability of these parts is paramount over customised local fitouts.

Yeah, its sort of NATO-fied . . . but the F-15J was IIRC not anything the US contractor built for them, Japan took delivery of the airframes and then replaced some of the electronics to their specs which made it easier for them to keep them functional since they were local sourced.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #159 on: 19 December 2018, 05:37:51 »
Well there won't be any such modifications in the 35s since Lockmart will control the avionics code except in the case of the Israeli 35i which is a special case, and even then the Israelis are installing an overlay on top of the underlying OS.

The Japanese are going to replace the older 100 of their 200-odd F-15Js with F-35As. And by old we mean really old; their things are 70s relics with no Link 16 and still firing the Sparrow rather than the AMRAAM. The F-35A is therefore a very big time upgrade over that.

Meanwhile the remaining F-15Js will continue in service, being upgraded with more modern accoutrements like datalinks, advanced PESA radars, helmet cued missiles, countermeasures, etc

The current scheduled Japan F-35 buys are for around 40 of the 35A variant, but this will be extended to about 100 of the 35A and 40 of the 35Bs for operation from the Izumos.

Without more extensive modifications than just bolting on a ramp however, the Izumos, like the older US LHDs, aren't likely to carry more than 6 to 8 F-35s. If we do see them modded, it will probably involve a deck extension

There's a manga and upcoming movie about just such a ship, titled Aircraft Carrier Ibuki. It's extremely Rule 4 :D it models what an imagined Izumo extended deck could look like:


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #160 on: 19 December 2018, 06:24:32 »
At the end of the day, the Japanese are no worse than us here in Australia.



We had our helicopter destroyers built with the ski-jump because it was going to cost to much to have Navantia build the ships without them  ???
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #161 on: 19 December 2018, 08:05:21 »
As I understand it the ramp is part of the hull structure, so removing it required a major redesign. I guess the RAN might have gotten a bit paranoid about that after the trouble with the Collins boats...

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #162 on: 19 December 2018, 08:54:25 »
At the end of the day, the Japanese are no worse than us here in Australia.



We had our helicopter destroyers built with the ski-jump because it was going to cost to much to have Navantia build the ships without them  ???

She's an amphibious assault ship, not a destroyer. :-)

As I understand it the ramp is part of the hull structure, so removing it required a major redesign. I guess the RAN might have gotten a bit paranoid about that after the trouble with the Collins boats...

Correct! There's a lot of weight in that ramp, not to mention the shape of the bow. Removing the ramp would have been very costly, and possibly compromised the ships sea keeping abilities. When I was on the deck, I looked around and wished for a go cart, a good run up, and a parachute. :-)

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #163 on: 19 December 2018, 08:57:28 »
Bit more obvious with a front view


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #164 on: 19 December 2018, 08:58:46 »
Would the Canberra class be capable of operating the F-35B if they got a detachment from, say, the UK or USMC? There's the business of needing the special deck coating but apart from that the baseline model from Navantia that they were taken from seems to be planned to do that for Spain...
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #165 on: 19 December 2018, 09:05:09 »
Would the Canberra class be capable of operating the F-35B if they got a detachment from, say, the UK or USMC? There's the business of needing the special deck coating but apart from that the baseline model from Navantia that they were taken from seems to be planned to do that for Spain...

Nope, they don't have any arrestor fittings or FW safety/survival gear. It is a relatively simple refit, we didn't meddle with the structure of the ship, just left a few bits out. It's more work and cost than a single deployment is worth though, so not likely to ever happen.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #166 on: 19 December 2018, 09:15:33 »
Nope, they don't have any arrestor fittings or FW safety/survival gear. It is a relatively simple refit, we didn't meddle with the structure of the ship, just left a few bits out. It's more work and cost than a single deployment is worth though, so not likely to ever happen.

If it's the F35 you don't need the arrestor cables with a VTOL landing even the Royal Navy's rolling landing doesn't need them the roll is very short and relatively speaking slow

EDIT my doesn't need isn't the same as a pilot would want I understand that any safety feature is a welcome one
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #167 on: 19 December 2018, 09:31:28 »
If it's the F35 you don't need the arrestor cables with a VTOL landing even the Royal Navy's rolling landing doesn't need them the roll is very short and relatively speaking slow

EDIT my doesn't need isn't the same as a pilot would want I understand that any safety feature is a welcome one

but how would you keep from burning holes in the deck?  That's kind of the real problem here-that jet exhaust is quite warm, blowtorching holes in your flight-deck probably wouldn't be a good or popular move with your sailors.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #168 on: 19 December 2018, 09:52:06 »
F-35 proof deck coating can be applied relatively easily. IIRC MV-22s already necessitate a significant amount of deck protection and Osprey-capable flattops just need a topup to operate F-35s.

The primary bottleneck would be pilot and ships' crew training in carrier ops.

After that there's issues of efficiency - okay, so you CAN operate F-35s, but is it worth the effort...?

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #169 on: 19 December 2018, 10:44:07 »
IIRC they did however delete the extra fuel storage that would be needed to operate F-35s for any significant amount of time.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #170 on: 19 December 2018, 13:50:08 »
She's an amphibious assault ship, not a destroyer. :-)

More useful than the frigate-protection frigates  ::) The Canberra is highly useful, but looks like a misloaded container ship :(
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #171 on: 19 December 2018, 14:13:11 »
The Canberra is highly useful, but looks like a misloaded container ship :(
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #172 on: 19 December 2018, 14:28:02 »
If I wanted containers on deck ...

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #173 on: 19 December 2018, 14:48:11 »
Hard to make out with the picture detail but . . . Soviet guided/cruise missile cruiser?
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #174 on: 19 December 2018, 14:51:22 »
None other than the very best (visually) of them all


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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #175 on: 19 December 2018, 16:51:22 »
The Slava class ship is such a neat ship with the firepower turned up to 11 on that ship.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #176 on: 19 December 2018, 16:57:53 »
Sure is a nice target you got there . . . be a shame if something happened to it . . .

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #177 on: 19 December 2018, 17:10:17 »
None other than the very best (visually) of them all



The Slava Class is at that stage where it becomes awesome ridiculous.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #178 on: 19 December 2018, 20:46:14 »
16 one-shot missiles. One ripple salvo.

Maaaaaybe one sunk IS CV.
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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #179 on: 19 December 2018, 23:27:06 »
Its too bad that the Canberra couldn't be supplied newly made Harrier aircraft.  Its was crime they were discontinued. They would work on Canberra fine, provide support for Amphib assaults and give the fleet a degree of protection from enemy aircraft, but alot.

I wish they were able to make more if it were practical.
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