Author Topic: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise  (Read 203321 times)

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #270 on: 01 January 2019, 14:34:32 »
I think Hellfires are overkill if you have a decent deck gun.  They're WAY more expensive than another medium caliber round.

HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #271 on: 01 January 2019, 15:42:14 »
Dutch Holland-class OPV, what a beaut

Could adding a Marlet or Hellfire type missile launcher improve its usefulness against pirates/suicide boats, or is it overspec?

Like Daryk said that's overkill. You would want to bring such launcher IF the pirate/insurgent have tougher boats.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #272 on: 01 January 2019, 16:50:36 »
The Combat Management System of the Hollands is only wired for two additional Hitrole-NT .50cal RWS (on top of the two installed) as additional weapon systems. The two current ones are mounted starboard of the bridge and port on the hangar edge, the additional two would be added in the relative positions on the other side.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #273 on: 01 January 2019, 19:14:22 »
Given that an OPV that ever encounters a particularly suicidal batch of smugglers/pirates may find itself having to tank an RPG or two, having a cluster of highly explosive missiles onboard where an armor-piercing warhead can reach them might not be the wisest idea. And since most ships sent to deal with pirates are usually going for arrests rather than kills, you're definitely going to be in range when stupidity announces itself.
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #274 on: 01 January 2019, 19:56:52 »
As a non-squid type I will happily accept the corrections, but I assume the advantage of the 76mm main gun, the 36mm secondary gun and the 50-cals on the Holland-class OPVs is that you can use them to fire warning shots across the bow of the vessel you are asking politely to heave to and prepare to receive your boarding party, not sure that Hellfires have an equivalent operating mode and if they did, it is a very expensive warning shot.
Incoming fire has the right of way.

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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #275 on: 01 January 2019, 20:08:31 »
Guns give you all kinds of options that missiles don't.  Aside from the ammunition being vastly cheaper, you can stop shooting before they're totally destroyed.  You generally don't do "disabling fire" with missiles.

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #276 on: 01 January 2019, 20:26:14 »
Guns give you all kinds of options that missiles don't.  Aside from the ammunition being vastly cheaper, you can stop shooting before they're totally destroyed.  You generally don't do "disabling fire" with missiles.

To be fair, we generally don't do disabling fire at all. The ocean is an unforgiving environment, and shooting up the engine spaces tends to put a lot of holes in the hull below the waterline, so the overall effect is much the same.

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #277 on: 01 January 2019, 20:29:35 »
It kind of falls in the category of "stop shooting before they sink".  Missiles don't usually give you that option.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #278 on: 01 January 2019, 20:32:26 »
Gets even worse if you use proper missiles like RAM in HAS mode for this purpose - and yes, that's part of their mission portfolio on German frigates. RAM in HAS mode does not have target discrimination. At all. Point it in a direction and the missiles will find and destroy any target that matches their common target patterns. If necessary sequentially in salvo fire with a new missile fired every second.

Funnily that's not even seen as a problem. If you're firing RAM from a frigate at boats you know what you're doing after all. With the next iteration - Block 2B - the missiles will get a datalink. Not one to the ship so you could direct them towards the right targets and abort if necessary, mind you. But a pure missile-to-missile link so the swarm can better coordinate which missile attacks which target in that vector.
« Last Edit: 01 January 2019, 20:33:57 by kato »

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #279 on: 01 January 2019, 20:43:14 »
Missile-to-missile data links are bad news for anyone on the receiving end.

Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #280 on: 01 January 2019, 20:46:12 »
Well I guess the idea is that a light missile would give the OPV a role in at least surface protection against, say, a missile team on a fast boat trying to land a shot on a hovercraft during inshore/littoral ops eg amphibious landings. Or is it totally unnecessary to involve an OPV in that kind of tasking?

@kato - can RAM target boats?

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #281 on: 01 January 2019, 20:57:51 »
@kato - can RAM target boats?
That's what the HAS mode is for - "Helicopter/Aircraft/Surface" targeting. It basically loads a set of alternative target patterns for the IIR seeker which include typical emission patterns of small boats. Any RAM missile from Block 1 onward can be modified to HAS mode; don't know if there's still any Block 0 around anywhere, really doubt it (the German ones reached their shelf life around 2013 and were discarded in live-fire trials over several annual deployments in South Africa).

Or is it totally unnecessary to involve an OPV in that kind of tasking?
The main role of the Hollands is counter-narco patrol and general naval presence in the Carribean, to give it a scope.

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #282 on: 01 January 2019, 21:00:44 »
I couldn't find the picture I was looking for, but this is close enough.  When the OPFOR targets are cheaper than your missiles, you're losing.  Guns are pretty much the only answer.


Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #283 on: 01 January 2019, 21:07:19 »
That's what the HAS mode is for - "Helicopter/Aircraft/Surface" targeting. It basically loads a set of alternative target patterns for the IIR seeker which include typical emission patterns of small boats. Any RAM missile from Block 1 onward can be modified to HAS mode; don't know if there's still any Block 0 around anywhere, really doubt it (the German ones reached their shelf life around 2013 and were discarded in live-fire trials over several annual deployments in South Africa).
The main role of the Hollands is counter-narco patrol and general naval presence in the Carribean, to give it a scope.
Why doesn't everyone ditch Phalanx for RAM/SeaRAM? Cost? (Those are million-dollar/shot weapons I understand)

Re: Hollands - See, if I were a narco, and I go to the trouble of building fast submersibles even, or say the nascent local chapter of the Global Liberation Army or whatever terrorist org flavour of the year, I might even find it worthwhile to invest in a black market TOW or Konkurs and make drug interdiction or sea policing that much more exciting, eh? So wouldn't it be nice to have something that can quickly, reliably and precisely erase anybody who tried doing that...?

I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too Clive Owen/Tom Clancy for the real world. But hey I thought those narco subs were purely fictional too. Whoda thunk huh?

Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #284 on: 01 January 2019, 21:11:42 »
Cost and reload time.  Missiles are somewhat more difficult to reload than a rotary cannon (not that they're easy).

Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #285 on: 01 January 2019, 21:13:43 »
My understanding is that the effective range of an RPG-7 against a moving target is around 200m (500m against a stationary target).

76mm main gun is probably overkill and you may have trouble getting rounds on target against fast and maneuverable targets like skidoos with a RPG-7 toting crewman but I would have thought that the this would be the target rich environment where a 25-30mm rapid fire cannon (secondary gun on the Holland-class) and the 50-cal remote weapons stations would excel at with their range, high rate of fire and ability to track and walk the fall of shot to the target. The 7.62mm GPMG would then be a good back-up for anything that looks like getting through the killzones.

Nothing gets you to reconsider your career options like incendiary and tracer 50-cal being walked into your current position.
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #286 on: 01 January 2019, 21:17:53 »
Those gentlemen in the picture might argue that last point with you...

Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #287 on: 01 January 2019, 21:39:03 »
I did not say reconsider your commitment to the cause . . . but there is that moment when that training / recruitment / REMF role that you turned down 6 months earlier suddenly become more appealing . . .
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #288 on: 01 January 2019, 21:48:34 »
Why doesn't everyone ditch Phalanx for RAM/SeaRAM? Cost? (Those are million-dollar/shot weapons I understand)

Re: Hollands - See, if I were a narco, and I go to the trouble of building fast submersibles even, or say the nascent local chapter of the Global Liberation Army or whatever terrorist org flavour of the year, I might even find it worthwhile to invest in a black market TOW or Konkurs and make drug interdiction or sea policing that much more exciting, eh? So wouldn't it be nice to have something that can quickly, reliably and precisely erase anybody who tried doing that...?

I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too Clive Owen/Tom Clancy for the real world. But hey I thought those narco subs were purely fictional too. Whoda thunk huh?

modern piracy tends to exist mainly in Political and socioeconomic conditions that make getting good gear like that non-profitable.

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #289 on: 01 January 2019, 22:20:38 »
It depends on what kind of fastboat threat you're facing.  Pirates with an RPG, AKs, and maybe a Dushka or two, yeah, a .50 (or three, why stop at one!) is a nice inexpensive way to deal with it at ranges that the opfor can't.

If you're talking about a threat like Iran's FACs and their ASMs, then a: hell yes give me SEARAM and b: wait why am I taking a coastal patrol/antismuggler ship into a warzone.
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #290 on: 01 January 2019, 23:21:52 »
If you're talking about a threat like Iran's FACs and their ASMs, then a: hell yes give me SEARAM and b: wait why am I taking a coastal patrol/antismuggler ship into a warzone.

Fully agree with you, and that is when I would be reconsidering that training / recruitment / REMF role that I turned down 6 months earlier which has suddenly become more appealing  :)
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #291 on: 01 January 2019, 23:38:51 »

b: wait why am I taking a coastal patrol/antismuggler ship into a warzone.
all kinds of ships tend to be drafted in a war, including civvy ships

an OPV might be used to nursemaid said civvy auxiliaries in a relatively low-threat environment

it would be nice if it can do something useful against, say, 5 or 6 speedboats with ATGM teams on board, or in light of modern developments, 5 or 6 remotely-controlled speedboats packed with explosives

just spitballin' yeah...

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #292 on: 02 January 2019, 05:33:29 »
all kinds of ships tend to be drafted in a war, including civvy ships

an OPV might be used to nursemaid said civvy auxiliaries in a relatively low-threat environment

it would be nice if it can do something useful against, say, 5 or 6 speedboats with ATGM teams on board, or in light of modern developments, 5 or 6 remotely-controlled speedboats packed with explosives

just spitballin' yeah...

History would state otherwise. Navies of the world frown upon having civilian ships included in anything other than convoy role, and they avoid coastlines like the plague.

Speedboats or jetskis with RPGs etc are only a danger in a strict littoral environment. Anything beyond sight of the shore they tend to lose their capacity, as they are almost totally dependent on third party guidance, usually from the shore. If the larger vessels have a full head of steam up and are coming into or out of port, they can be left holding the bag as they either struggle to keep up, give themselves away before they can fire or can't get out of the anchorage fast enough to achieve contact.

We tend to see them as a larger threat than they really are because western nations have a tendency to worry about "The War" as opposed to "A War", a dangerous tendency which leaves us woefully unprepared for future conflicts. This is not unique to any given nation, it's part of the professional military ideal, where the members get so good at the conduct of the current conflict that we forget that not all conflicts are like this one.


marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #293 on: 02 January 2019, 05:45:09 »
I always liked the look of the Soviet's Moskva class helo carriers







Designed in the 60's to hunt for Polaris subs the Moskva's are self escorting ships with a mix of SAM's and a long range anti-sub missile launcher that carried a nuclear warhead, but their main armament was their helecopters.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #294 on: 02 January 2019, 06:13:39 »
@marauder648 - I have the book those illustrations came from, yes it did contribute to my undue fascination with naval warships.

Hard to find similar illustrations these days, whether online or deadtree.

...
Speedboats or jetskis with RPGs etc are only a danger in a strict littoral environment. Anything beyond sight of the shore they tend to lose their capacity, as they are almost totally dependent on third party guidance, usually from the shore.
...
We tend to see them as a larger threat than they really are because western nations have a tendency to worry about "The War" as opposed to "A War", a dangerous tendency which leaves us woefully unprepared for future conflicts.
...
Very true all.

Anyway I admit the specific comparison I had in mind were the RN's old Type 21 frigates which served in the Falklands War. Similar mass and dimensions, bigger gun, added Exocet missiles and Seacat SAMs. They helped support the beach landings and two ships were lost.

Adding SAMs and a missile system, if not a towed sonar array, would give the Holland OPV more utility, I feel.

Also there's this: Singapore's Independence class "littoral mission vessels" aka gunboats. Just 2/3rds the size, range and endurance of the Holland-class OPVs and lacks a hangar, but at least has the same gun and 12 MICA-VL SAMs for point defence.



Very interesting infographic here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bg2r3EuafDc/VZzzqZNeAtI/AAAAAAAAA8I/HdqwstjkQa8/s1600/LMV.jpg

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #295 on: 02 January 2019, 06:27:15 »
Why doesn't everyone ditch Phalanx for RAM/SeaRAM? Cost? (Those are million-dollar/shot weapons I understand)
Industry-politics related in my opinion. General Dynamics wants their share.

RAM is also always backed up by smaller caliber guns for the close-in work (and for when you want to discriminate), adding topdeck weight and CIC console space.

Anything beyond sight of the shore they tend to lose their capacity, as they are almost totally dependent on third party guidance, usually from the shore.
Which is why the defense suite also includes a hefty dose of ECM systems.

There's a regular series of littoral warfare maneuvers in the Baltic Sea, Northern Coasts. Probably the largest exercise in that kind of warfare these days, been going on for ten years now with around 4,000-5,000 soldiers, 40-50 ships and 20 aircraft every year.

And it has components exactly along those lines. Defending against: small groups of speedboats from the beaches, shore-to-sea ATGM and mortar use against ships, shoreside EW blanketing the naval task group, helos and aircraft popping up over the shoreline between hills, mine warfare in archipelagos, targets hiding in large amounts of civilian vessels etc. When that got a bit repetitive they added hostile submarines. And when that got repetitive they added landing troops to the shore in that kind of context, both amphibious with landing craft andd helos from LPDs, SOF from small boats and submarines and larger-scale paratrooper drops after securing the seaside airspace.

HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #296 on: 02 January 2019, 06:54:03 »

76mm main gun is probably overkill and you may have trouble getting rounds on target against fast and maneuverable targets like skidoos with a RPG-7 toting crewman but
Many gun system that use 76mm are quite capable of engaging air targets including missiles with it.

Also remember the Autocannon's Precision Rounds?
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« Last Edit: 02 January 2019, 06:58:03 by HobbesHurlbut »
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #297 on: 02 January 2019, 07:22:46 »
Cheers and thanks for that HH, I learn something new every day  :thumbsup:
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


                                   - excepts from Murphy's Laws of Combat

Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #298 on: 02 January 2019, 08:10:22 »
According to Wikipedia the Holland-class isn't set up to carry more weapons as-is, but have the space for a VLS, larger CIC and more guns if they feel the need for a "real" warship (and can afford it). I figure the lack of missiles is because it would make the ships more expensive to operate, without adding anything to their, essentially, police capabilities.

Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VI: A New Enterprise
« Reply #299 on: 02 January 2019, 08:34:16 »
without adding anything to their, essentially, police capabilities.

Most important part! A constabulary vessel is a constabulary vessel! Don't try to make it a front line, or even a second line, warship. Build your warships to fight, and your constabulary units to patrol, and you will have a much more effective navy.

Speaking of which, the RAN's new OPV, a design from Lürssen Werft: