How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?

[Iceweb]

Using a handheld precludes using torso-mounted weaponry, doesn't it?

 

Does it? 

I might be getting mixed up with the club and carry rules, but I thought it just blocked arm weapons. 
Then again there is a good chance I am wrong.

[Mattlov]

To use a club you have to not use anything in both arms and you just do double punch damage on the full hit table. 

It really isn't worth giving up your medium laser. 

I disagree.  Giving up the Medium laser for 11 points of concentrated damage is worth it.  The only drawback is having to be in base contact.  Against a medium 'Mech 10+ point damage groups are dangerous.

[Kit deSummersville]

No need to go that far.  You just need L1 water. The Wolverine mounts 4/5 of its jump jets in the legs. It can't jump out of water by more than 1 hex.  The shadow hawk has all three torso mounted. So this means that a SHD can consistently get a +1 modifier (+1 for 3, +1 for jump, -1 for water), while the Wolverine gets a 0 or -1 (can't run into water, so only 2 hexes max (-1), or jump for 1 hex(0)).

But then he still has the SRM advantage on you. I guess maybe if you had a big enough pond to try and keep him at bay, that would work. He can't run at you.

I disagree.  Giving up the Medium laser for 11 points of concentrated damage is worth it.  The only drawback is having to be in base contact.  Against a medium 'Mech 10+ point damage groups are dangerous.

It's even more in the other 'Mechs incentive to get a club, their arm weapons have minimum range penalties.

[Daryk]

Water was something I hadn't considered... if it's in play, the Shadow Hawk as the advantage in that it can mount one torpedo launcher and one missile launcher, thus covering both possibilities.  Neither of the other machines can do that.

And RoundTop makes an excellent point about shallow water too!  :thumbsup:

[Kit deSummersville]

As an aside, back in the day the rules about torpedo launchers being separate from missile launchers weren't as clear. I loaded a Crusader with SRTs and waded into L1 water and dominated.

Alas, torpedoes are out for this scenario. Unless you could hand mount them....

[Daryk]

Ah, thanks for the correction, and apologies to Weirdo for unintentionally proposing a "custom" design.

[Weirdo]

It's a common misconception. I understoodthat no offense was meant.

[Daryk]

Thank you, kind sir!

[Colt Ward]

As an aside, back in the day the rules about torpedo launchers being separate from missile launchers weren't as clear. I loaded a Crusader with SRTs and waded into L1 water and dominated.

Alas, torpedoes are out for this scenario. Unless you could hand mount them....

So you are saying the Shadow Hawk would have a fistful of torpedoes?

[Cannonshop]

First rule of Shadowhawking:  Your heat curve is ridiculously deep on the base model.

This suggests the playing style: if you aren't moving,  you're doing something wrong.

within the limits of your ammo bins, you should also be firing, you can afford to run your overlap-where your Short/one hex into minimum on the LRM is crossing the line of your long/max range on your srm, your medium laser, and the short of your Autocannon.

You've got the heat curve to do this.  The other two 55's can (and do) overheat.

If your SHD is on offense, you need to be moving, if it's on defense, Moving.  it's able to eat an engine hit and suffer little to no degradation, so you use that.  This is a machine built for the 'mechwarrior who says "Heat management? what's that?"

which is why it's so confusing for players in the post-Clan era of Double-heat-sinks to really grasp HOW to use it-because it's built for a style of combat that's pretty much obsolete post 3039, thanks to everyone and their brother's seneschal being able to do the same trick, but with all-energy boats covered in maximum armor at heavier weights.

IOW, thanks to the proliferation of DHS, the 'trick' for the Shadowhawk is EVERYBODY's trick now.

[grimlock1]

Hmmm...upon some pondering:

If I were to chance upon a Wolverine in my ShadowHawk, I think the best chance would be to make the odds 50/50. I'd head to a place where we have the same mobility and same firepower.







Yes, underwater.

You and RoundTop have found the only really good levers the Shad can pull on.

[grimlock1]

Not sure about the Griffin, but, yeah, if the Wolverine has Sniper, you´re hosed... unless, possibly, you have Range Master (Long).

Why does one frighten you more than the other?

[Scotty]

Why does one frighten you more than the other?

Sniper doesn't affect minimum range, and the Shadow Hawk wants to get close to a Griffin.

The Shadow Hawk wants to stay 7 hexes away from the Wolverine.

[Sir Chaos]

Sniper doesn't affect minimum range, and the Shadow Hawk wants to get close to a Griffin.

The Shadow Hawk wants to stay 7 hexes away from the Wolverine.

Exactly.

[Kit deSummersville]

Sniper doesn't affect minimum range, and the Shadow Hawk wants to get close to a Griffin.

The Shadow Hawk wants to stay 7 hexes away from the Wolverine.

The Griffin also has a bigger disadvantage close up with the ShadowHawk than the Wolverine has at range against the ShadowHawk.

[Sharkapult]

First rule of Shadowhawking:  Your heat curve is ridiculously deep on the base model.

We'll hmm. How about fighting in environmentally hot locations, like a desert, jungle, or near a volcano? (Inside a volcano)
The extra couple of heat points won't be a problem for the Shad but the Wolv and definitely the Griffin would feel it.

[monbvol]

6R Wolverine runs pretty cool too and too much rough terrain quickly starts working in it's favor.

Against the Griffin this idea works better but in a way also makes it more dangerous.  Before if it got lucky and hit the head of the Shadow Hawk and got a critical Life Support wouldn't have been a big deal/immediate game over just waiting to happen.  Under this new environmental condition that can start having some pretty serious consequences pretty quickly.

[Empyrus]

Ugh, Shadow Hawk... (Seriously, i started to dislike the thing in HBS' BattleTech, i never could figure what i'd do with them [without replicating the Griffin or Wolverine] and i never got 2Ds i could fit better for close combat).

Fine, a Mad Max MechWarrior gotta drive what they have. (I wish i had at least 2D model, if i can't have a Wolverine or Griffin. It is stupid but at least it has some extra firepower.)

So, what do i do?
If i'm alone, i'm gonna beeline toward my target (don't really care what it is), firing all my weapons constantly. Then i'll beat and kick it until it or i go down.
Smart commanders don't let me go alone.

If i'm not alone, then i figure the Shadow Hawk is best used for fire-support. The Griffin is better for this but essentially heatless AC/5+LRM-5 is OK in Mad Max era. Find good shooting position, keep firing with the AC and LRM. The ML and SRM-2 exist to discourage others from coming close. I hope i'm adding my fire to a JagerMech's or a Catapult's (or equivalent), what i do is not much but every bit helps, probably more than one ML and SRM-2 help in close combat.
Figure the Shadow Hawk is better suited to accompany bigger and/or slower 'Mechs, it isn't as mobile as its brethren so it could be a hindrance in fast jump-capable cavalry, but it is just mobile enough to move around to add its firepower for close defense as necessary.

[Nastyogre]

You will probably be more able to dictate things against the Griffin than the Wolverine.

Dead open field you can run straight at the Griffin and give damage reasonably well and unless the GRF can kite you, once you close that other pilot is going to be the not happy unless you are really torn up.

WVR, once the WVR forces you to fight at close range, it is going to come to initiative and landing a kick. If you get to land a kick, you have a really good chance of beating the WVR. If you don't or you fail the kick and fall, you will need to win initiative or it will be bad.

Then again, a little crit by either side will do the trick. Lose an actuator for the GRF or WVR, problem. Lose a JJ on the WVR, problem. 

This is very close but pull across everything everybody said about the SHD being a Jack and the other two specialists. It comes down to the environment and the dice. One punch to the head and the other pilot taking a nap and it would be curtains.

Variants change the whole equation and make the discussion pointless. (and outside the focus of the OP)  A GRF-S is an entirely different unit. The Shad-K, and 2D are entirely different. (ignoring upgrades and such) the WVR-M and K are entirely different in capabilities and capacities. Some of the other posters might as well discuss how would you drive a Kanga? On paper it's not that much different, except it is.

To answer the OP's post line. "How do you drive a Shadow Hawk?" I drive it into whatever situation is on the field knowing it won't do anything I ask it to do well, but it will be able to attempt almost anything. It's the backbone for the rest of the specialists. So you drive it like that.

If you magnify it to a lance of each you have played to the SHD's strength. A lance of GRF would suffer losses pretty quickly to the combined punchs, kicks and close range fire. The WVR will face enough firepower to make a difference coming in, though if nobody really gets to shoot it will fall to dice and initiative again. No WVR is going to enjoy the kicks of 2 Shad's.

 

[SCC]

It's a common misconception. I understoodthat no offense was meant.

Would you actually consider swapping out missiles for torpedoes a custom?

On the Handheld issue, using a Handheld means forgoing using any forward mounted arm or torso mounted weapons, so unless it offers a range or damage bonus over what you have to lose to using one it's not worth it.

[Weirdo]

You're swapping out one piece of equipment(missile launcher) for another(torpedo launcher), so yes.

[Daryk]

Weirdo is right, but in an underwater scenario, I can't think of a single 'mech where a hand held torpedo launcher wouldn't be a better choice.  Energy weapons suffer reduced range underwater, and every single hit (even by clusters) is a breach check.

[winters_night]

People discounting the Griffin to hard, saying oh I'm just gonna stick close to him, yeah he loses initiative he jumps to the best defensive mods possible and cools down if his to hits are bad enough. He wins Int he's jumping behind "yeah but than he has min range!" you say, yes and he lands a nice heavy kick into your Shadow Hawk's legs. On most boards in a 1v1 your never going to melee the Griffin and have to rely on plinking him down while when his PPC lands it will cause much greater concentrations of damage and he's gonna be landing kicks on the Shadow Hawk as well. It could only take 3 kicks to end the game, 2 if the second scores a tastey crit when it goes internal (who doesnt love busted actuators) 

Also how is the Shadow Hawk keeping the Wolverine at range? Wolvie running flat out and jumping when it's more advantageous than using his jump jets when the combat gets closer to stay on the Hawk. The SH isn't dictating range with it's worse mobility, and again is going to be eating dirt when the Wolvie starts landing those kicks.

[Kit deSummersville]

I don't think that's correct. However we are offering suggestions on how to try to defeat these other 'Mechs. Do you have any suggestions?

[winters_night]

It's not so much the tactics, because that is pretty much your only option that I find wrong, its the attitude that this is going to somehow land the Shadow Hawk a victory more often than not. The reality is that even doing these things the Shawk is gonna struggle unless blessed by the dice gods. If dice stay consistent between the two in initiative and attack rolls I'd still put my money on the Griffin or the Wolverine.

 

[Kit deSummersville]

It's not so much the tactics, because that is pretty much your only option that I find wrong, its the attitude that this is going to somehow land the Shadow Hawk a victory more often than not. The reality is that even doing these things the Shawk is gonna struggle unless blessed by the dice gods. If dice stay consistent between the two in initiative and attack rolls I'd still put my money on the Griffin or the Wolverine.

So you're defending your friends and family, a Griffin or Wolverine shows up and you just bet on them? Sounds like a strategy for 100% failure.

[Sartris]

not very many people are arguing that the shadow hawk would have an easy time against the griffin - it's that getting close is the only really option you have. the exercise of the thread was that you're in a dumpy SHD and trouble shows up - what's your plan?

[winters_night]

So you're defending your friends and family, a Griffin or Wolverine shows up and you just bet on them? Sounds like a strategy for 100% failure.

Did you not read my post about how the Griffin and Wolverine having better mobility will have the upper hand because of their melee ability that the Shadow Hawk will not be able to employee because using terrain the Griff and Wolv will keep the Shawk at bay when they lose int and jump in for a kick when they win it? I'm not just betting on them on some baseless assumption, it's something I've seen play out time and time again.  So yes these ideas given are your best bets but AGAIN I'm saying the people stating "yeah I think the Shawk will have an easy time with the Griffin" or "The Shawk should beat the Griffin more often than not being close in" are being very disingenuous about whats going to happen.

I think it'd be best to say this is what you should try to do, but your still going to need some hot dice to bring the Hawk to victory

[Colt Ward]

So you're defending your friends and family, a Griffin or Wolverine shows up and you just bet on them?

Hmm, I think in that scenario you change the definition of victory . . .

We complain a lot of times about table top experiences that devolve into 'Last Mech Standing' and that is what this thread has assumed to be 'victory' . . . but is it in Kit's scenario?

IMO, a victory over a Griffin or Wolverine in his scenario would be to sting the opposing 55t mech so that it has to account for my movement so that it is delayed in reaching its target and then be able to escape in my mech to preserve it.  You can postulate on the arrival of reinforcements, but the primary goal is to deny the WVR/GRF victory in such a defensive scenario . . .

So first, IMO you would position yourself at a position 90 degrees to the WVR/GRF's axis of advance and plan to be at long range from such a target.  Being a hidden unit in heavy woods or a barn 18 hexes from the expect path of the GRF or 14 hexes from the WVR path would be ideal.  Wait until it goes by, the activate to fire from the ranges listed and hopefully putting the damage on the right flank of either target.  Next I will kite the WVR/GRF as much as possible to give those I am defending time to either evacuate or for reinforcements to arrive . . . 10 turns, 15 turns . . . 20 turns, whatever it takes.  But I would NOT close, you need to remain a threat in being . . . if the WVR/GRF decides to turn back to their mission objective, then you should be able to walk/run into position to fire on their back.  Even if you cannot do it, you need to threaten so it will slow their forward advance.

Once you have word those you are defending have escaped, then its time to break LOS and later contact- run out of LOS and then sprint away when they can no longer see your direction.

[Kit deSummersville]

I'm saying the people stating "yeah I think the Shawk will have an easy time with the Griffin" or "The Shawk should beat the Griffin more often than not being close in"

Who is stating that? I think the sentiment is that the ShadowHawk is going to have a hard time with the Griffin but trying to move in close is the best chance of victory.