Author Topic: Tell me about company sized battles  (Read 16008 times)

Kobold

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 355
Tell me about company sized battles
« on: 29 May 2011, 01:23:30 »
So the vast majority of my experience is lance or star sizes combat.

I was wondering how much differently larger battles played out (when the only objective is destroy the enemy).  I know this sounds like a very vague question, bit I am thinking about trying larger games (either company v company or company v star) and I want to know what to expect as well as what to avoid.

MadCapellan

  • Furibunda Scriptorem
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12192
  • Just a little piglet serving the Capellan State!
    • Check out the anime I've seen & reviewed!
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2011, 01:53:20 »
While you might get the impression that Company v. Company battles would take longer, in reality, they tend to only take slightly longer to resolve than Lance on Lance engagements.  Even more so than Lance vs. Lance fights, in Company scale battles, focusing fire against only a single target drops 'Mechs very rapidly.  All else being equal, the side with the most firing discipline when it comes to selecting and coordinating targets is the side that comes out the victor.  Do not make the mistake of having every unit engage a separate target.  Your company should focus on only one or two 'Mechs with the goal of destroying them utterly in one turn.  If you can rapidly drop a good number of their units early on, then the difference in firepower becomes insurmountable and they'll be forced to concede defeat. 


Fallen_Raven

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3719
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2011, 01:58:28 »
Well, I haven't tried any thing beyond demicompany (two lances) level battles, and those only in MegaMek, but I can tell you that they tend to take awhile. (Bear in mind that Intro tech was the limit) You also need to use slightly different tactics in larger battles, because (no offense to MadCap) you can't always get in range pour all you fire into one mech at a time. (At least I have a problem with it. Still, an entire lance on a target is fairly effective.) Flanking atacks become much more significant when you have a streched out battleline, and fire support can turn a rough fight into a rout if your careful. Adding in optional rules can be difficult too if your not experienced with them. Fire and smoke will slow things down even more, while artillery and air support can be difficult to balance for. Even f you feel comfortable with these already you might want to wait a few games before intergrating them in large scale. Also remember that you need more space for a more units, so it could be hard to even set up the battlefield, and that terrain can become a major issue if you don't think your map selection out.

On a more smart ass note, company vs. star could be a little one sided depending on the era.
Subtlety is for those who lack a bigger gun.

The Battletech Forums: The best friends you'll ever fire high-powered weaponry at.-JadeHellbringer


MadCapellan

  • Furibunda Scriptorem
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12192
  • Just a little piglet serving the Capellan State!
    • Check out the anime I've seen & reviewed!
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2011, 02:21:53 »
You also need to use slightly different tactics in larger battles, because (no offense to MadCap) you can't always get in range pour all you fire into one mech at a time. (At least I have a problem with it. Still, an entire lance on a target is fairly effective.)

You probably need to field a force with more synergy, then.  Ideally, a company should move roughly the same speed & have roughly the same weapon ranges.  No unit in the formation should be more than a couple of hexes from another member.  Davion designs are great for this.  A Mixed Medium-Heavy AFFS Company that moves 5/8/5 can maneuver as a group and throw down so much firepower that it can core out an Assault 'Mech in a single turn at 14 hexes, and it's got the mobility that there's nowhere you can run.

black magic battalion

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 156
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2011, 03:37:20 »
A company VS company fight is pretty straight forward but it can get bogged down if you start using stuff like infantry, artillery or air support

Greyhind

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 635
  • I'm Watching You
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2011, 07:28:54 »
I've found that terrain (specifically hills but all of it) is more significant. A mountain that gets in the way of half your force is more of a problem and those really nice heavy woods behind level 1 hills get used up fast.

Khymerion

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2500
    • The Iron Hack
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #6 on: 29 May 2011, 09:09:23 »
Company sized battles with my private little group tend to enjoy the idea of using a floating map (randomly determined as needed) and tend to be running engagements.  Due to the fact that we know focus fire is a great way of slagging a mech in a matter of seconds, it actually leads to a more cautious engagement with both sides more willing to feel out the enemy before engaging full on.  Company/Binary sized encounters are usually the first level of fighting where the actual roles mechs are supposed to perform start to come to light instead of just who put together the biggest and most munchiest of mechs for that weight and value.  Company fights are also where some of the niche equipment systems start to really shine, like a fully utilized company sized c3 network or artillery.  It just takes a bit longer but this is a wargame...

Try playing a good Napoleonic, civil war, or microarmor WWII game where the set up takes 2 hours, 6 to play and it won't resolve (due to it getting late), and an hour to clean up... and that company sized battle won't feel so bad.  Heck, maybe it might be time to get up to battalion sized brawls and have hex and grid paper on hand to detail the entire fight, what maps are where, flight times, and and the company or two on map is just the local engagement!  Complexity is the spice of life...  especially if you come back to a map in a running engagement and stumble across a minefield someone left a day in game ago.  Worse if it was your own.  Might think twice about those FASCAMs missiles next time...

That is just me...  your results may very.  I also fully accept that my situation is fully representative of a mindset that is not predominate amongst most players.  I fully accept that when I go to other groups, that the running engagement/floating map logic does not fly with them and when constrained to a single map lay out, I tend to perform poorly... lack of options and all and being trapped by map edges.  So, take my notes and comments with a grain of salt.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Lyran Archer

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 884
  • pre-3050: ARC-2R / post-3050: ARC-5W
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2011, 09:21:52 »
Phell and I just recently played a company versus company battle. It took 12 hours! Here's a video batrep of it. The video is only 15 minutes but gives a good idea of what it's like to fight company-sized battles.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,6181.0.html

LCAF German Expeditionary Militia Kampfgruppe Panzerfaust: 1 Overlord class DropShip, 1 Fortress class DropShip, 2 AeroSpace Fighters, 4 BattleMech Companies, 1 Vehicle Company, 1 Infantry Battalion
Motto: STAND (behind a hill) AND DELIVER (indirectly via spotter)!

Devens

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 826
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #8 on: 29 May 2011, 10:40:15 »
I have played several company sized battles and They can take a long time if you dont play often enough to be fresh on the rules.  It took us about 5 hours but we did not use any time saving measures and some of the players were slow due to only playing maybe 5 or 6 times a year.  If all the players are in the swing of things they can take a lot less time though.  If you take some timesaving steps then that time can be greatly shortended to be more along the lines of a lance on lance.  Somewhere in the recent past on these boards their was a thread about such timesaving steps, though I dont know where it is now.

I took the Box of Death Idea and impemented it in a 24 bay Art (Beads, etc) storage container so that I can resolve up to 24 rolls simultaniusly with a shake of the box.  IIRC it was Col Bosch that came up with that idea.

You probably need to field a force with more synergy, then.  Ideally, a company should move roughly the same speed & have roughly the same weapon ranges.  No unit in the formation should be more than a couple of hexes from another member.  Davion designs are great for this.  A Mixed Medium-Heavy AFFS Company that moves 5/8/5 can maneuver as a group and throw down so much firepower that it can core out an Assault 'Mech in a single turn at 14 hexes, and it's got the mobility that there's nowhere you can run.


This is not really hard to do, basically I can achieve the similar range part by making sure that even my close combat designes have at least a token weapon of Either 6/12/18  or 5/10/15 range bracket or better.  The 5/10/15 being for a RAC5 based companies.  ERLL, UAC10, LRM, PPC, ERPPC, LPPC, HPPC, Gauss, LB10x, Light Gauss, Heavy Gauss are all weapons that can be used as main guns for this type of Synergy.  Remember that you dont need to avoid Close combat designes but rather choose ones that has a Token Long Range weapon to help with fire while it closes the gap or enough speed to close the gap quickly.

Speed makes coordination easier but is not a necessesity.  I myself prefer mobililty especialy in the fire support role, often Griffins, Dervish 8D's, Huron Warriors, Enforcer III, etc. 
« Last Edit: 29 May 2011, 11:20:31 by Devens »

Demon55

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2597
  • Planning wisely.
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2011, 11:17:24 »
Company sized battles are a lot easier to manage than battalion on battalion sized. 

Negatorxx

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 101
  • 44th Shadow Division
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #10 on: 29 May 2011, 12:18:29 »
play on a megamek campaign server and you can do company sized battles with arti, ba, and aero in 2-4 hours
-Bringing Blake's Peace to megamek servers since 2009

http://www.mekwarslegends.com/Home_Page.html

Kobold

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 355
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #11 on: 29 May 2011, 14:09:56 »
I only play through mekwars so I am not concerned with logistics of big games as much as I am strategy and tactics.

CrossfirePilot

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #12 on: 29 May 2011, 14:42:21 »
I like the larger company vs company battles because it evens out some of those lucky shots that toss the game in an early round.  If you are in the second round of fire and a mech falls to a golden BB it is much easier to adjust with 11 vs 12 than with 3 vs 4. 

Jackmc

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2681
    • How I pay the bills
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #13 on: 29 May 2011, 15:20:20 »
Company sized battles are a lot easier to manage than battalion on battalion sized.

Batt battles aren't that bad if you have good record keeping and discipline. 

Ultimately what makes any size of battle bad is a large number of units who have mechanics that don't resovle efficiently.  for example, a lance of elite SRM carriers takes forever to resolve their fire.  I would never do a company sized abttle with more than one or two SRM Carriers unless I was doing it in MegaMek where all the process is autoamted down to a fraction of a second.

-Jackmc 


Beukeboom Fan

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 132
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #14 on: 29 May 2011, 16:46:28 »
I've found the bigger the battle - the less impactful that cover is, unless you can get your entire force in cover.  If you have 12 mechs, and half of them are in heavy cover - you can be sure that your out of cover mechs are going take the fire.

IMO - mobility becomes more important the bigger the game.  Make a bad deployment choice and the 3/5 anchor might never get to effective range.

dirty harry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 939
  • Make my day
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #15 on: 29 May 2011, 18:55:46 »
Company sized games offer different tactics. It is not only a single LRM supporter, it could be an entire lance pooring LRMs. It is not a single spotter that has to do all the work, there are several more out there. Cropping your mechs calls for artillery of any sort. And fire concentration can show really brutal effects (remembering a poor Flashman... took 250 points of damage in single turn...)

But don't try a single star vs. an entire company. Most of the time it was a slaughter ... for the clans. Sheer number of armor plates and the massed fire power takes down every clanner sooner or later.

mensa12345

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • FedCom Forever!!!
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #16 on: 29 May 2011, 23:10:16 »
I have to go with MadCappellan on this one.  Concentration of force in space is critical, and overcomes all other considerations.  Unless you use REALLY big maps (like 4x6 or 5x8), light and medium units become lower in value, and 5/8 and 4/6, fire-oriented heavies go way up.  The primary problem with lights and mediums is that they tend to be used as backstabbers.  When you have a good config (like two lances up with a lance in reserve), there are no backs to stab.  If you hoppy gomer pops behind a mech, you face the combined fire of the lance behind, even if the front mechs are too busy to turn and fire on you too.  Also, the standard light mech strategy of hopping from woods to woods looking for a shot becomes suicidal.  There's just not enough cover to shield your approach.  Even generating good mods, you can't overcome the fact that too many weapons are coming your way from downrange.

Also, depending on the terrain, watch 3/5s.   I've had whole battles (on floating mapsheets) where they never could engage.  On the other hand, you can finally get some use out of the Grand Dragon and the other fast heavies.
BTW, floating maps radically changes the relative value of mechs.  I'd pin down what rules you're using before you select forces.
That which is Seen cannot be Unseen.

MadCapellan

  • Furibunda Scriptorem
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12192
  • Just a little piglet serving the Capellan State!
    • Check out the anime I've seen & reviewed!
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #17 on: 29 May 2011, 23:35:39 »
Unless you use REALLY big maps (like 4x6 or 5x8), light and medium units become lower in value, and 5/8 and 4/6, fire-oriented heavies go way up.  The primary problem with lights and mediums is that they tend to be used as backstabbers.  When you have a good config (like two lances up with a lance in reserve), there are no backs to stab.

That's not necessarily true, but your backstabbers need to coordinate fire as well.  If your skirmishers are all acting as individuals, then they're just victims waiting to happen.  If you drop a whole lance behind one 'Mech and more into it's backside, if you lose a Phoenix Hawk to destroy an Assault between it and it's lancemates, then you've made a good play.

Fallen_Raven

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3719
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #18 on: 30 May 2011, 00:02:34 »
I have to go with MadCappellan on this one.  Concentration of force in space is critical, and overcomes all other considerations.  Unless you use REALLY big maps (like 4x6 or 5x8), light and medium units become lower in value, and 5/8 and 4/6, fire-oriented heavies go way up.

I thought the standard was one map sheet per lance/star/level 2? If so the lights and mediums would be very valuable. Especially so when BV totals are low enough to force the issue.

The primary problem with lights and mediums is that they tend to be used as backstabbers.  When you have a good config (like two lances up with a lance in reserve), there are no backs to stab.

This idea relys entirely on what the force compositions are. Highly mobile light mechs on the flanks of slow tanks can cause a disaster with a few reasonably lucky hits. And if they leave a lance in reserve, that means you can move around one flank and catch them in a box until the reserves can move up. Plus if we want to talk about focusing fire, leaving a lance behind makes you the proverbial one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

When you boil down a tactical discussion, it ends up being that no plan survives contact with the enemy. Always be ready to adapt, and know that your plan will break down over something stupid, generally delivered by Murphy. Thats why I can't advocate "Wall of Steel" tactics as a default strategy. And remeber were you dropped the mines, because its worse when you blow yourself up. :-[
Subtlety is for those who lack a bigger gun.

The Battletech Forums: The best friends you'll ever fire high-powered weaponry at.-JadeHellbringer


Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13011
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #19 on: 30 May 2011, 00:06:29 »
I was wondering how much differently larger battles played out (when the only objective is destroy the enemy).  I know this sounds like a very vague question, bit I am thinking about trying larger games (either company v company or company v star) and I want to know what to expect as well as what to avoid.
Pure & Simple,  the Game will take longer.

Things to consider,  is it still a 1v1 player base or is it 2v2 or 3v3 for the Company v/s the Lance.
More players = More talking = More confusion between players
Less Players = More record keeping but less Talking or confusion about what someone else is doing.


While I don't agree that company fights are only a "little" longer than Lance fights as MadCap said, I do agree with how he pointed out, Group Fire is always a better option than dueling when it comes to dropping targets quickly.

Someone else mentioned terrain/mapsize/cover,  this is all very true as you get more mechs its harder to sneak backstabbers around & find cover for all your units.
Example, only 1 mech can take the nice partial cover, heavy woods hex while the rest of your assault lance is stuck w/ a single light woods w/o partial cover, etc etc.
Or your light lance of flankers can only get 2 of them in full cover and the other 2 have LOS of the enemy which means they are taking fire as they close, possibly destroying them early before stabbing can commence.

A full company fight will likely enforce the "edge of the world" option where eventually mechs are pinned down and can't move away well from larger #s of enemy units, unless as mentioned you are playing on some seriously large maps.
12v12 is, in theory, a 6 mapsheet battle, per the recommendation of TPTB.
But I can't see doing it in less than 9 maps for some decent maneuver, maybe 16,  which means unless your in MM you are needing a really really big playing space.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11991
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #20 on: 30 May 2011, 00:14:09 »
You probably need to field a force with more synergy, then.  Ideally, a company should move roughly the same speed & have roughly the same weapon ranges.  No unit in the formation should be more than a couple of hexes from another member.  Davion designs are great for this.  A Mixed Medium-Heavy AFFS Company that moves 5/8/5 can maneuver as a group and throw down so much firepower that it can core out an Assault 'Mech in a single turn at 14 hexes, and it's got the mobility that there's nowhere you can run.

actually i prefer to mix it up, but i try to break the company down into definable "sub-units" with commonalities. so for example, you might have a "battle lance" of medium to heavy mechs with similar movement and range profiles to serve as a core force, backed up by a "harraser lance" of lighter, faster units, and a "support lance"  of units that are geared for longer range combat.

MadCapellan

  • Furibunda Scriptorem
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12192
  • Just a little piglet serving the Capellan State!
    • Check out the anime I've seen & reviewed!
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #21 on: 30 May 2011, 00:36:22 »
actually i prefer to mix it up, but i try to break the company down into definable "sub-units" with commonalities. so for example, you might have a "battle lance" of medium to heavy mechs with similar movement and range profiles to serve as a core force, backed up by a "harraser lance" of lighter, faster units, and a "support lance"  of units that are geared for longer range combat.

That sounds good in theory, but in practice, it results in a situation where it's all too easy for your opponent to isolate one element and defeat it in detail.  A company should run as a unit, fight as a unit, and act as a unit.  Rather than have a dedicated support lance, your company should have suitable long range weapons on it's mobile units.  Rather than have a "harasser lance", it should have a few 5/8/7 'Mechs that can bound in when necessary but otherwise act as part of the main force.

Devens

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 826
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #22 on: 30 May 2011, 07:58:56 »
actually i prefer to mix it up, but i try to break the company down into definable "sub-units" with commonalities. so for example, you might have a "battle lance" of medium to heavy mechs with similar movement and range profiles to serve as a core force, backed up by a "harraser lance" of lighter, faster units, and a "support lance"  of units that are geared for longer range combat.

Remember one important thing.  Task Organized Units.  Reorganize you units for a battle based on the tasks you need fulfilled.   Lances can always be reorganized on the Fly as needs dictate.  Your Battle Lance might have 2 Front Line Troopers, 1 Missile Boat or Sniper, and 1 Skirmisher while your other 2 Front Line Troopers might be slpit between your other 2 Lances with the fastest one supporting the Recon/Striker Lance and  a Jump Capable one protecting your Fire Lance while suing its Long Range Weaponry to Help with the Fires.  When you fight a company Size battle you might then reorganize them to your actual combat needs of that engaggement by pulling all your troopers into a Task Organized Lance with either an officer or maybe even a Senior NCO commanding that Ad Hoc Lance.

 As Madcap said, make sure your company has units with the capabilities you need for the company.    Pure Lances of one type of design are typicaly a poor organization IMHO as a Lance often needs to fight on its own and as a result you need to plan on each lance having to fight on its own and win.  But it also needs to be able to fight as part of a greater unit in the company.   Their is a reason why most players put 1 or 2 Troopers, Skirmishers, and/or Brawlers with a Token Long Range Weapon to help the 2 -3 Missle Boats and/or Snipers in a Fire Lance.   Your 3rd Fire Support Mech might be the Missle Boat or Sniper in the Battle Lance with the 4th being the Light Sniper/Missle Boat(Panther, Valkyrie, Griffin, Hammer, Hollander etc) in the Recon, Striker, or Persuit Lance.   Alternately you might not have any dedicated fire support designs instead relying on Long Range Weapons you have spread across all 12 mechs to Mass Fire Where its needed.   
« Last Edit: 30 May 2011, 08:07:28 by Devens »

Challenger

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • Six or Styx
    • My Fanfiction Stories
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #23 on: 30 May 2011, 11:06:58 »
That sounds good in theory, but in practice, it results in a situation where it's all too easy for your opponent to isolate one element and defeat it in detail.  A company should run as a unit, fight as a unit, and act as a unit.  Rather than have a dedicated support lance, your company should have suitable long range weapons on it's mobile units.  Rather than have a "harasser lance", it should have a few 5/8/7 'Mechs that can bound in when necessary but otherwise act as part of the main force.

Having had a fair bit of success with glitterboy's suggestion, I think the trick is (as you say) to concentrate your forces at the point of contact.

Its perfectly fine to have a company with a 5/8/8 lance, a 5/8/5 lance and a 4/6/4 lance, as long as the lighter units remember it is their job to support the 4/6/4 lance, not to hair off after the first enemy unit they see and get destroyed in detail.

Challenger

Neufeld

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2539
  • Raven, Lyran, Horse, Capellan, Canopian, Bear
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #24 on: 30 May 2011, 16:44:13 »
Since no one have mentioned this:
If you play company sized battles against the bot in MegaMek, remember to turn on individual initiative. This will speed up the bot at lot, since it has less movement possibilities to calculate.

Also, I strongly prefer some kind of jumping brawler in each lance, unless I have a multi-line formation.

"Real men and women do not need Terra"
-- Grendel Roberts
"
We will be used to subdue the Capellan Confederation. We will be used to bring the Free Worlds League to heel. We will be used to
hunt bandits and support corrupt rulers and to reinforce the evils of the Inner Sphere that drove our ancestors from it so long ago."
-- Elias Crichell

Kobold

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 355
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #25 on: 31 May 2011, 09:58:02 »
Ok, say you are building a company for a, for the sake of argument, 15000 bv game using 3025 tech.  How would you build? Would you tend towards a narrower band of unit bvs (with say nothing cheaper than a WLF or odd FS9) or is it worth it to bring a few STGs or LCTS so you can bring along some more expensive assaults?

(currently I am working with a fairly limited hangar, so general advice is more useful than specific units)

Reaver

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 615
  • 10 XP from 2nd level commoner
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #26 on: 31 May 2011, 12:55:09 »
Ok, say you are building a company for a, for the sake of argument, 15000 bv game using 3025 tech.  How would you build? Would you tend towards a narrower band of unit bvs (with say nothing cheaper than a WLF or odd FS9) or is it worth it to bring a few STGs or LCTS so you can bring along some more expensive assaults?

(currently I am working with a fairly limited hangar, so general advice is more useful than specific units)

As in so many things, it's not what you have so much as how you use it that counts most in that kind of situation.  Stingers and Locusts are in fact perfectly serviceable, survivable and can be the turning point of a match if used properly, but it's not easy to do.

The first rule of using bug mechs in larger formations, 3025 or otherwise, is that you have to stick to your formation.  Simply put, one Wasp operating by itself is an annoyance.  Four Wasps acting in concert have as much firepower in close as a Battlemaster, with greater mobility and greater ability to keep up a steady stream of fire to boot.  So when you create a lance, your first priority should be to match units with a) roughly equivalent speeds, and b) roughly equivalent weapons brackets.  This will allow you to move your mechs as a unit without having one mech constantly lagging behind, and it will allow every mech to fire with roughly the same modifiers at the same target in the same flank/rear/front firing arc.  There are of course exceptions to this rule, such as the classic pairing of a Hunchback with three fire support mechs, but with light mechs, you really have to keep your mission pure.  Pairing an Urbanmech with three Stingers isn't going to wave anyone off attacking the Stingers.  All it will do is slow up the Stingers or dilute their combat effectiveness by never having the Urbie with them.

The second rule of using bug mechs in larger formations is to screen them effectively.  A lot of people will simply advance their units across the board as fast as they can and, since the bug mechs typically move faster than anything else, simply write their bug mechs off as cannon fodder.  This is foolish and wasteful:  as in the above example, nobody would consider simply writing off a Battlemaster in an unsupported headlong charge, so why should you write off the four Wasps that can match it for firepower?  Instead, the best defense against losing your bug mechs should be the armor of your larger mechs and/or wasting a lot of firepower on highly improbable shots.  Put simply, most people focus their fire on the most attractive target, and they gauge attractiveness by how threatening something is and how easy it is to hit.  By making people pay a lot of attention to your big mechs, you can make them ignore the bug mechs until it is too late.  So hold them back at range.  Dance them as a unit out of easy potshots.  If you want, give your opponent 10's or 11's to hit to run his ammo and crank his heat scale up.  But while you're doing that, move your larger mechs into position and bring them forward.  Make him choose between taking dicey shots at the recon lance that's dancing way over on his left flank, striking at the armored fist of your battle lance that will hit him in two turns, or taking the worst of all possible worlds by splitting his fire.
 
The third rule of using bug mechs is that the phrase speed is life means something a whole lot different in larger formations than it does at the lance level.  At the lance level, speed is life refers to the simple matter of picking a position and moving at a speed sufficient to keep from getting vaporized by fire from 2-3 mechs.  At the company level, speed is life refers to the fact that bug mechs are the most mobile asset you have, which means you can hang them back farther on a flank and still bring them in to concentrate fire effectively in close.  At the company level, concentration of fire is everything:  by attacking by lance and focusing fire, you can often drop even the toughest mechs in 1-2 turns, and doing so decreases their ability shoot back at you, preserving your own unit in the process.  All your effort should be focused on a) maximizing the amount of fire you can bring down on one mech's head in a turn, while b) minimizing your opponent's ability to do the same to you.  Speed being life for bug mechs, you can make them look more out of position and less of a threat before snapping them 9 hexes inward to hit the mech that's anchoring a battle line 3 hexes away.  If your 4/6 heavies are your jab, then think of the lance of Wasps as your left hook:  coming wide, and it connects only if you foul up your opponent's ability to block or dodge by jabbing him enough.
 
As one of two side notes, these basic rules rely on two basic principles of larger formation fighting.  The first, concentration of fire, has already been mentioned.  The second is the principle of mutual support and reinforcing fire.  If you string out your opponent's battle line and then hit one end, in 3025 especially, you have instantly accomplished a) and b) mentioned above:  because the ranges are fairly short in 3025, by lengthening the battlefield, you often put one some of your opponent's mechs out of effective support range of their other mechs.  If one side of the battle line can't support the other end, they can't shoot back at you, can't concentrate their fire and can't prevent you from taking down one of their mechs through concentration of your own fire.
 
The second side note is that the change from L1 3025 tech to L2 3050 tech doesn't change the rules, only the implementation.  As ranges increase, you can lengthen your own battle line and still mutually support the other side.  On the other hand, as speeds increase, it becomes easier to bring in those light elements from further out to strike at your target.
The Federated Suns.  Exporting freedom, whether we have it or not, whether you want it or not.
--Pyro

Kobold

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 355
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #27 on: 31 May 2011, 21:48:28 »
Reaver: thank you for the treatise, it was very helpful.

I recently played a game with a reinforced star (1 med, 1 heavy, 3 weak assaults, plus two athenas) against a heavy/assault IS company (which included a token salvaged ryoken b).  Though I managed to fairly quickly bring down two of the IS mechs and severely cripple one or two more, once a couple banshees, a thunderbolt, and a stalker got close enough to combine their fire, my gladiator and gargoyle went down fast.

As bvs go up, massed tonnage with high armor can overcome an outnumbered if technologically superior foe.

Next time I'll try to arrange company v company.

wundergoat

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 328
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #28 on: 04 June 2011, 03:15:13 »
A few pointers about the value and use of mobility and positioning in general:

[1]  It is easier to concentrate fire if all your mechs are together while being harder to find cover for all of them.  For your opponent, it is easier to find cover against your forces.  It is also easier to outmaneuver a tight formation, and therefore concentrate fire.  Conversely, if you are in a lose formation, it is harder to concentrate fire but cover is easier to find and you are harder to outmaneuver and focus fire.  There is a balance between the two, dependent on situation.

[2] A more mobile force can change between tight and lose formation more quickly and therefore change in response to a change in situation more quickly.  It can also therefore concentrate its fire more easily while dispersing enemy fire more effectively.

[3]  Mobile units can exploit the mistakes of your enemy better since they can reposition to take advantage faster.  If one mech gets separated, a fast group of mechs can mug it and therefore punish the mistake.

[4]  The advantages of mobility allows you to control the tempo of a battle.  Mobile forces get to favorable positions first and hamper your opponent's ability to get to favorable positions.  Tempo is defined as having control over how a battle is being played out and defining the pace of action.  Example: the more mobile force can make a fight into a slow sniper contest or a close quarters brawl.  Tempo is also marked as "having the initiative".  It is easier for the mobile force to react to the actions of the less mobile force and vice versa, so the let mobile force tends to spend more time reacting than driving the action.

[5]  Because of their advantages, mobile units generate a greater deal of threat than their power would otherwise indicate, while also being harder to damage or destroy.  This goes beyond target numbers and has more to deal with positioning.

[6]  Close quarters and other conditions that constrain mobility and reduce its effectiveness.  Again this goes beyond target movement modifiers and to hit numbers.

[7]  Positioning can counter mobility.  A slower, more powerful force can use careful positioning and movement to ensure overlapping and mutually supporting fire and therefore deny the mobile force options and mitigate weakness.  This can also be used to try and take advantage of mobility constraints (see point #6).

[8]  Your entire force does not need to be fast to have a mobility advantage.  Skirmishers can run forward and stall an opponent's advance while the slower main force takes up favorable positions.  This is not the same thing as a suicide run and ideally this is done with fast snipers or backstabbers/flankers.  Fast snipers should have a TH# advantage and the opposing force must either stop to return accurate fire or weather the storm.  Proper flankers are dangerous and require redeployment to counter their threat, and otherwise influence the less mobile force's formation (see point #7).

markhall

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1435
  • "The Button's Stuck!"
Re: Tell me about company sized battles
« Reply #29 on: 04 June 2011, 04:14:14 »
Phell and I just recently played a company versus company battle. It took 12 hours! Here's a video batrep of it. The video is only 15 minutes but gives a good idea of what it's like to fight company-sized battles.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,6181.0.html

if you can get more bodies the game will go quicker.
1 lance per person should result in  a smoother game.
It also means the commander gets the fun of explaining his tactics to the others on his side then seeing how it works out.

 

Register