More Battle Armor questions.

[willydstyle]

When you construct a point (or squad) of battle armor, do they all have to have the same weapons?

If they don't have the same weapons, do you roll on the cluster table for each type of weapon if the unit hits? For example, a unit of elementals hypothetically has 3 small lasers and 2 flamers.  If the unit hits do you do a cluster of 3 for the lasers and a cluster of 2 for the flamers?

[DarkISI]

They all have the same weapons.
Everything else would seriously hamper gameplay. Of course, inuniverse that doesn't have to be true, but for purposes of the tabletop game, all BAs in a squad have the same weapons.

[BirdofPrey]

When construction a battle armor squad, all troops have the have the exact same equipment.  The only exception to this is the squad support weapon mount which takes up mass and space on every suit, but the weapon is only used by troop 1.

[bakija]

When you construct a point (or squad) of battle armor, do they all have to have the same weapons?

Yeah, I was just investigating this myself (I've used BA, but never bothered building them and/or BVing them, as we usually just use mechs), and there is a bit of weird ambiguity in the construction rules.

All indications are that all BA units have the same weapons (i.e. you construct a single BA design--say, a medium 1000 KG IS BA trooper with speed 1, 3 jump, 8 armor, an MG, a SRM2 with 2 shots, and a battle claw--which happens to be a perfectly viable 1000 KG IS BA guy), and then your squad is just 4 of those guys.

There is indication that one of your BA guys in a given squad can have a Squad Support Weapon, but I'm not quite sure what that means at this point. As I can't find anything that defines what a Squad Support Weapon is. Maybe I'm just dense.

[Maelwys]

Under Total Warfare rules, all suits must be armed in the same way. Really when you're building squads, you're not picking and choosing different suits or configurations, you're picking one suit/configuration, and then multiplying it by the squad size.

The only exception to this (And its not really an exception if you get technical) is the Squad Support Weapon.

For the squad support weapon, think of it as a weapon that's been disassembled, and its various parts carried by each member of the squad. When it comes time to fire the weapon, they reassemble it, and one of them fires it...hence there's only 1 weapon spread out across the squad. They all just carry parts of it (and hence why its technically not an exception..all the suits are carrying part of a single weapon).

[guardiandashi]

kinda like the typical deployment of the m60 machine gun (sorta)
the m60 gunner packs the gun and some ammo
his "helper" carries a spare barrel (or 2) and more ammo
and other members of the squad pack 1-2 more belts of ammo for it each

technically it may not be exactly the same but its the same principle

[bakija]

I don't think the issue with the Squad Support Weapon is that it is difficult to understand on a conceptual level. It is that the rules don't actually seem to tell you what they do. I mean, again, I might be on crack and missing something completely obvious, but in reading the TM, I can find a couple references to a Squad Support Weapon (although no actual information on what a Squad Support Weapon actually does) and in TW, I can find a couple references to a Squad Support Weapon, but again, no actual information what what a Squad Support Weapon actually does.

Is it a standard weapon the you can have one of in the squad? Can it be an LRM or a ML or something? How much weight does it take up to install? Is it a specific weapon that does specific damage? Is it something else entirely? This is what is all unclear.

[Maelwys]

Yeah, the TW series sometimes has that whole "You need to know how to play to learn how to play." feel sometimes. Or everything is in so many places...

Did you try the Squad Support Weapon writeup on page 270 of TechManual? Does that clear a few things up?

[bakija]

Yeah, the TW series sometimes has that whole "You need to know how to play to learn how to play." feel sometimes. Or everything is in so many places...

Did you try the Squad Support Weapon writeup on page 270 of TechManual? Does that clear a few things up?

Heh. Yeah, I didn't see that before. Although that section is still fairly vague. I'm figuring that a Squad Support Weapon is just a regular weapon that is spread around 4 troopers? So if my 4 man IS BA squad wanted a Medium Laser (which is 500 KG), instead of having one guy use 500 KG, I could allocate 250 KG on each of them, and then the squad as a whole would have a ML to use?

Seems fairly inefficient, if I'm understanding correctly.

[BirdofPrey]

It's mainly used on light suits and PAL that wouldn't otherwise have the capacity for decent weaponry.

[Maelwys]

Heh. Yeah, I didn't see that before. Although that section is still fairly vague. I'm figuring that a Squad Support Weapon is just a regular weapon that is spread around 4 troopers? So if my 4 man IS BA squad wanted a Medium Laser (which is 500 KG), instead of having one guy use 500 KG, I could allocate 250 KG on each of them, and then the squad as a whole would have a ML to use?

Seems fairly inefficient, if I'm understanding correctly.

Its really inefficient. Its horribly inefficient if you play WoB/ComStar with their 6 man squads, since they're considered "IS" and you still pay the 50%, instead of being discounted for having more people. I'm not really sure how much use its going to get now that Detachable Weapon Packs are Tournament Legal.

It's mainly used on light suits and PAL that wouldn't otherwise have the capacity for decent weaponry.

That's the main use. Most other suits have things to do with that much weight. The original Kobolds and Kages both used the it to give them a bit of extra firepower.

[bakija]

Alright--that all makes much more sense. Thanks for the info!

[Jellico]

Its really inefficient. Its horribly inefficient if you play WoB/ComStar with their 6 man squads, since they're considered "IS" and you still pay the 50%, instead of being discounted for having more people. I'm not really sure how much use its going to get now that Detachable Weapon Packs are Tournament Legal.

That's the main use. Most other suits have things to do with that much weight. The original Kobolds and Kages both used the it to give them a bit of extra firepower.

I find it useful for electronics like TAG which can only be used one at a time anyway. You do lose redundancy, but its still a 1 in 4-6 chance of taking the equipment out.

[bakija]

So as I further explore the depths of BA construction, I keep finding things that, well, make not the sense. Maybe they are artifacts from previous editions. Or maybe I'm just not finding where the reason these things exist in the 6 separate sections to search for answers (BA chapter in TW, BA equipment description in TW, BA chapter in TM, BA equipment description in TM, BA equipment charts in TW, BA equipment charts in TM...). But a few stand outs:

-What is the difference between a Battle Claw and a Heavy Battle Claw? I mean, other than the Heavy Battle Claw weighing 5 extra KG. All BA descriptions say "if they have a Battle Claw or Heavy Battle Claw", I can't find anything that indicates that having a Heavy Battle Claw does anything that having a regular Battle Claw doesn't, and I can't find anything that requires anyone to have a Heavy Battle Claw. And no indications that the Heavy Battle Claw does extra damage in any instance, or does anything at all. Other than weigh an extra 5 KG. Wha?

-The IS David Light Gauss Rifle. Does 1 damage, has range -/3/5/8, weighs 100 KG, and takes up 1 space. Right. Totally reasonable. The Grand Mauler Gauss Rifle does 1 damage, has range -/2/4/5, weighs 125 KG, and takes up 2 spaces. To be fair, the Grand Mauler is listed as doing 1 in italics damage in the TM, although there is no indication that this means anything. And then there is the Tsunami Gauss Rifle. Which is exactly the same as the Grand Mauler. But has no italics. I mean, it seems totally reasonable that the David Light Gauss is just a reasonable, solid, ranged weapon for IS BA. But the Grand Mauler and Tsunami are just completely worse. And they all are listed as having the same tech rating. Wha?

[DarkISI]

-What is the difference between a Battle Claw and a Heavy Battle Claw? I mean, other than the Heavy Battle Claw weighing 5 extra KG. All BA descriptions say "if they have a Battle Claw or Heavy Battle Claw", I can't find anything that indicates that having a Heavy Battle Claw does anything that having a regular Battle Claw doesn't, and I can't find anything that requires anyone to have a Heavy Battle Claw. And no indications that the Heavy Battle Claw does extra damage in any instance, or does anything at all. Other than weigh an extra 5 KG. Wha?

The difference is fluff and RPG only. For the tabletop game, it makes no difference.

-The IS David Light Gauss Rifle. Does 1 damage, has range -/3/5/8, weighs 100 KG, and takes up 1 space. Right. Totally reasonable. The Grand Mauler Gauss Rifle does 1 damage, has range -/2/4/5, weighs 125 KG, and takes up 2 spaces. To be fair, the Grand Mauler is listed as doing 1 in italics damage in the TM, although there is no indication that this means anything. And then there is the Tsunami Gauss Rifle. Which is exactly the same as the Grand Mauler. But has no italics. I mean, it seems totally reasonable that the David Light Gauss is just a reasonable, solid, ranged weapon for IS BA. But the Grand Mauler and Tsunami are just completely worse. And they all are listed as having the same tech rating. Wha?

Some weapons are better than others. For less weight than the AC5 you could get PPC. ;)

[bakija]

The difference is fluff and RPG only. For the tabletop game, it makes no difference.

Fair enough. Weirdly, they don't point that out (they point out a lot of other things you can get for your BA that has zero effect in BT). Ah well.

Some weapons are better than others. For less weight than the AC5 you could get PPC. ;)

Well, sure, but with the AC5 vs PPC, there is at least *some* level of logic that justifies the AC5--yeah, it kind of blows, but it generates only 1 heat for 5 damage (i.e. .2 heat per damage point) as opposed to the PPC which is 1:1. And the PPC has a minimum range. I mean, yeah, I'm the first guy in line to swap out AC5s for, well, anything, but at least there is some game design logic that makes an AC5 exist.

The difference between, say, the David and the Tsunami are so big (for something that small :-) that I'm assuming I'm missing something--maybe the Tsunami is incredibly cheap (I didn't check the 7th possibly section for info yet...) or maybe there is some advantage it has that isn't reflected in the table top game, or something.

[bakija]

And...in checking location 7 (the BA equipment C-Bill cost chart in the TM), it turns out that both the Tsunami and Grand Mauler gauss rifles are less than half the cost (in C-Bills) of the David light gauss rifle. Although I'm still not clear on what the meaning of the italic damage listing for the Grand Mauler means. Unless it is just a typo...

[Maelwys]

I believe that italic was just a typo.

And yeah, there's a bunch of equipment for BA that doesn't really matter in the board game, which has affects in the RPG.

The big one of course, being ammo for all non-missile weapons. Under the board game, you're fine with the basic amount included with each weapon, but in the RPG that can go pretty quickly.

[Colt Ward]

I suppose this is not the time to point out the MagShot and confuse the poor boy?

[bakija]

I suppose this is not the time to point out the MagShot and confuse the poor boy?

The Magshot makes perfect sense relative to the David Light--it does 2 damage with a range of 3/6/9, weighs 175 KG and takes 3 spaces. It does more damage and has a longer range than the David Light, but weighs almost twice as much and takes up 3 times the space. This is totally reasonable.

The Tsunami and Grand Mauler are just plan completely worse than the David Light (although a lot cheaper, cash wise, if you look at that chart). Having the Tsunami and Grand Mauler on the weapon list are like if they had, for mechs, a Moderate Laser that did 5 damage, generated 4 heat, weighed 2 tons, and had a range of 2/4/6. It is just plain worse. I mean, yeah, you could certainly have just plain worse weapons of all types (AC1! Super Bad PPC!) just for color or old timey tech games, but generally, not so much.

[bakija]

And yeah, there's a bunch of equipment for BA that doesn't really matter in the board game, which has affects in the RPG.

So it is safe to assume that in pretty much any instance where something in the BA section doesn't have an explanation or, ya know, sense, it is probably the result of a holdover from the RPG rules that doesn't translate (at which point I wonder why the bothered, but I'll not worry about it :-). Ok then. Thanks!

[Maelwys]

Well, if you want another source to reference (is getting kind of silly at this point, neh?) you could look through A Time of War, the new RPG for what various components would do. (of course, I'm not entirely sure where all those are in the RPG now that I think about it..armor and manipulators yes, the rest...hmm).

[bakija]

Well, if you want another source to reference (is getting kind of silly at this point, neh?) you could look through A Time of War, the new RPG for what various components would do. (of course, I'm not entirely sure where all those are in the RPG now that I think about it..armor and manipulators yes, the rest...hmm).

Score! More places to check for info!

:-)

Nah, I'm not involved in the RPG universe or whatever, I was just confused by the bits and pieces in the BA building and fighting section that seemed oddly unexplained; I only ever play the BT table top fighty game, and all the stuff that has no effect there is exactly something that has no effect. And I'm ok with that now that I know I'm not just not looking in the right place for why these things are what they are.

[guardiandashi]

part of the difference between the tsunami, the mauler/grand mauler and king david is really simple

the tsunami and the mauler are 1st generation personel scale gauss weapons  I want to say they have intro dates around 3050-3052ish

the king david is a second or 3rd generation version and was introduced I want to say somewhere between 3055 and 3060-65ish

[bakija]

the tsunami and the mauler are 1st generation personel scale gauss weapons  I want to say they have intro dates around 3050-3052ish

the king david is a second or 3rd generation version and was introduced I want to say somewhere between 3055 and 3060-65ish

Yeah--the bad ones have an earlier intro date (also only found on the 7th place checked...), something like 3056 for the Tsunami, 3059 for the Grand Mauler, and 3064 for the David Light. Which is all really close together. I guess the RPG has a very developed equipment system that accidentally got ported into BT.

[willydstyle]

BA technology is new to the inner sphere *period* so it makes sense that they're having a lot of advancement in a short period of time.

[Hellraiser]

I find it useful for electronics like TAG which can only be used one at a time anyway. You do lose redundancy, but its still a 1 in 4-6 chance of taking the equipment out.

DING DING DING DING DING
Jel has the winner here   ;)

The problem w/ the Squad Support Weapon is in what you choose as the max tonnage.
200 KG Small Laser ?   =  100 KG each = 200 KG wasted across 4 suits.
But, a minor 35KG Lt.TAg is only 18 KG each for a small 37 KG lost total.
The 50KG Needler FireDrake isnt' a bad option either.
Maybe even the 100KG MG or David Lt Gauss would be soso.

But, to me, the combo of Light TAG w/ AP weapons on the other suits is the best option available.

[bakija]

BA technology is new to the inner sphere *period* so it makes sense that they're having a lot of advancement in a short period of time.

Well, in a "realistic" sense, sure. But in terms of a game, it is kind of wonky that there are, say, 3 different models of BA gauss rifles that all are developed in, like, 5 years of each other, and one is just flat out superior to the other two, and the other two are completely identical. Again, it is kind of like if they had, say:

-Moderate Laser: 2 tons, 5 damage, 4 heat, range 2/4/6
-Moderater Laser: 2 tons, 5 damage, 4 heat, range 2/4/7
-Medium Laser: 1 ton, 5 damage, 3 heat, range 3/6/9

Available for Medium Laser kinda stuff, along with the ER and Pulse versions. I mean, yeah, you could have these in there in the name of technological progression, but really, they just kinda clutter up the weapon charts. Do they make the game worse or take up a lot of space? No, but in the name of reducing extraneous jank, they probably could have safely left things like this out of the BA construction section.

[Hellraiser]

Well, as mentioned above a lot of weapons/items had added or different functions in the RPG statistics.
Its possible the Gauss weapons varied there as well.

Last but not least, "superior" only comes down to base stats, all items are then balanced by BV.
So there ARE other things to consider when taking "lesser" weapons.

[bakija]

Well, as mentioned above a lot of weapons/items had added or different functions in the RPG statistics.
Its possible the Gauss weapons varied there as well.

Sure. But if they have no impact on the table top game, there isn't really a reason to have them there.

Last but not least, "superior" only comes down to base stats, all items are then balanced by BV.
So there ARE other things to consider when taking "lesser" weapons.

True. There is that. I'm still unclear on why the Tsunami and Grand Mauler both exist (as they are completely the same--they even both have a BV of 6), and the difference between the David (7 BV) and the other two (6 BV) is not significant enough to worry about. But yeah.