Military Discipline

[cray]

So, what, if he wouldn't advance, you'd open fire on his 'mech? Or promise to shoot him when you got back to base? I see that working real well.

It has worked well, historically.

Mercenaries are not islands unto themselves. There's a complicated social aspect: you sign on to a unit, you agree to back them in battle, and then...what? Abandon them? Tell them to ****** off, you're not carrying your weight? You've got social ties to technicians, logisticians, commanders, and fellow mercenaries. What are you going to do if you don't like orders to advance into battle, tell them to ****** off and get away scott free?

No, there's social penalties for that behavior. I just saw an interesting summary of US Civil War behavior: soldiers marched suicidally shoulder to shoulder into the gates of Hell because the people at each shoulder were either a brother, cousin, or father. If you ran or otherwise shirked your duty, then the abstract threats of the federal/confederal governments were a non-issue: word would get back to family, friends, wives, cousins, etc. that you didn't keep your end of the bargain. WTF were you going to do when you got home and everyone knew you as a deserter, a coward, and/or a pansy who couldn't stick to their word?

What's a 'Mech-owning merc got waiting for him when he returns home with the story, "Dude, it was bogus, I was ordered to garrison a town where nothing was happening and to do lowly tech work, so I ran away with my personally owned family 'Mech?" and HPGs have signaled in advance, "The Dude shirked his duty and left his fellow soldiers hanging in the breeze against pirate raids because he couldn't handle easy maintenance and garrison duties."

Yes, many mercs will subscribe to harsh physical discipline rather than be ostracized by family, friends, and business partners. Enduring flogging, latrine duties, etc. shows a merc can adhere to his word, even when he's wrong. It's preferable to the alternative: eternal shame of failing.

[AnubisZombie]

It really depends who ur fighting with. Some ppl would kill you, hopefully the yellow bellied bastard would be smart enough to be more afraid of these ppl and fight, and some ppl blow off the idea of being abandoned by their brother in arms. Consider it a non issue. Other units will hunt you down after the battle and skin you alive.

[PurpleDragon]

In the units I run, if you abandon us, we also abandon you.  Most who leave my units do so while at a hiring hall.  those that haven't usually don't make it home as the enemy gets informed when someone, who abandoned us, came with us.

[Peacemaker]

I think that's the idea.  A warrior who will not take his/her 'mech into battle would earn such a bad reputation. 

"Why would I hire him?  He's afraid the enemy's gonna leave a scratch in his mechs paint job!"

If a guy runs away during the middle of a battle and abandons his comrades because he's afraid his 'mech might take light damage, he'll probably have bad reputation. But what if the commander is a doofus with the strategic sense of a Ribwich or he has a grudge against his subordinates or he's a sadistic psychopath? What if the MechWarrior running away because he has a family to support and he's being order to charge a Pillager in his Assassin? Professional respect is a two way street and there are two sides to every story. If I was looking to employee a couple freelance MechWarriors, I would consider all the angles before making a decision.

[Jellico]

Who is the wo/man with the CBills? In most cases its the senior officer and he can do what he likes. Even if he is a doofus Ribwich. While a certain amount of freethinking is good in subordinates, it requires a certain amount of experience in those subordinates to pull it off safely. Otherwise a democratic army is a bad idea.

[Peacemaker]

Who is the wo/man with the CBills? In most cases its the senior officer and he can do what he likes. Even if he is a doofus Ribwich. While a certain amount of freethinking is good in subordinates, it requires a certain amount of experience in those subordinates to pull it off safely. Otherwise a democratic army is a bad idea.

My point is that a good merc could go it on his or her own if it becomes obvious they're getting put into too much danger by incompetent officers/coworkers.

[3rdCrucisLancers]

No, there's social penalties for that behavior. I just saw an interesting summary of US Civil War behavior: soldiers marched suicidally shoulder to shoulder into the gates of Hell because the people at each shoulder were either a brother, cousin, or father. If you ran or otherwise shirked your duty, then the abstract threats of the federal/confederal governments were a non-issue: word would get back to family, friends, wives, cousins, etc. that you didn't keep your end of the bargain. WTF were you going to do when you got home and everyone knew you as a deserter, a coward, and/or a pansy who couldn't stick to their word?

You are aware of the astronomically high desertion rates in the ACW, right? Lee's army melted away in 1865, and the Federal forces had serious problems with desertion throughout the war.

[Nahuris]

Who is the wo/man with the CBills? In most cases its the senior officer and he can do what he likes. Even if he is a doofus Ribwich. While a certain amount of freethinking is good in subordinates, it requires a certain amount of experience in those subordinates to pull it off safely. Otherwise a democratic army is a bad idea.

Almost every merc contract I have ever heard of does allow a pilot to respectfully decline an order ---- but it will go up before the review board. One thing that everyone seems to miss is that it is called the Mercenary Review and BONDING Commission. For those that have never been in a career field that requires bonding, the term doesn't make sense. For those people who have done bonded work, it makes all the difference in the world. For example, a locksmith is bonded.... that means that if he misuses the skills he has, he runs a very serious risk of not only losing his livelyhood, but all the property he might own, and probably faces criminal charges. This can happen if he just happens to teach his nephew the skills, but doesn't make sure the nephew goes through the bonding process.

For a merc, the bonding commission is basically attesting to the quality of your work. They are risking their reputation to enhance your prospects of work. If you violate the bonding commission, there will be an inquiry. Mind you, bonding commissions have to be fair. If they don't protect their personel from ribwiches, then no one uses them and they go under.... on the other hand, if they side with their personel against units with valid complaints, then the same happens from the other side..... all of which makes this a serious issue for them. In the above example... if the unit ordered the Thud pilot into a situation where destruction is guaranteed, then he can respectfully refuse the order, or more likely offer an alternative that gets the job done, but increases the survivability. Mercenaries are there to fight battles, not be thrown away, and only a true idiot commander would fail to avail themselves of the hard won experience a merc offers. However, if that same merc refused due to not wanting his new paint job scratched....etc. Then he is screwed ... very likely, the bonding commission will take his mech....if he runs, they can put a bounty on him... and even if he does manage to pay off the bond and keep his mech, he will never have a chance at a good job again.

Nahuris

[StCptMara]

But what if the commander is a doofus with the strategic sense of a Ribwich or he has a grudge against his subordinates or he's a sadistic psychopath? What if the MechWarrior running away because he has a family to support and he's being order to charge a Pillager in his Assassin?

What if that is the first time an order like that has been given? What if, in fact, the commander knows the enemy has
somehow gotten your comm frequency, and is listening in(and, he can't tell you, because that would give away the
advantage), and the commander has used a private frequency between him and the unit's salvaged hunchback IIC
that your job is really to distract the pillager from noticing at that moment. Or, heck, what if your commander knows
that that Pillager is out of ammo, due to other engagements with it. In a military operation, you have to trust that your
commander knows what he is doing. Hesitation gets people killed.

That said, I doubt Merc units would resort to execution..however, I see physical punishment being acceptable in some
instances. After all, it was used in the RL military until the 20th century(Or..does the Royal Navy still use flogging?), and
some of the successor states do still use it(CapCon, Combine..I'm looking at you!). If the unit is big enough, in fact,
you could see all the trouble makers put into one unit, and given the worst jobs...You know, the feint at the main gates,
the securing the ford, etc...

[monty]

 If the unit is big enough, in fact,you could see all the trouble makers put into one unit, and given the worst jobs...You know, the feint at the main gates,
the securing the ford, etc...

The original idea for the Black Widow Company was to do just that. And as I mentioned earlier the Lone Wolves are described in the Galtor campaign as filling that function for other regiments if the troublemaking unit are too tough to discipline.

[StCptMara]

The original idea for the Black Widow Company was to do just that. And as I mentioned earlier the Lone Wolves are described in the Galtor campaign as filling that function for other regiments if the troublemaking unit are too tough to discipline.

You know...I was actually thinking about the Widows...complete with the guy with the suspended death sentence that Natasha
could invoke at anytime..

[verybad]

I see physical punishment being acceptable in some
instances. After all, it was used in the RL military until the 20th century(Or..does the Royal Navy still use flogging?), and
some of the successor states do still use it(CapCon, Combine..I'm looking at you!). If the unit is big enough, in fact,
you could see all the trouble makers put into one unit, and given the worst jobs...You know, the feint at the main gates,
the securing the ford, etc...

Physical punishment was used in the American Army officially till 1861. It is still used unnoficially. I can see the AFFS also using it, as it has a machismo tradition.

In the LCAF, there are people that have gone through military training together that have formed military traditions as well. The Nobility in the past have formed some of the biggest pseudo-cults related to the military. I don't buy the whole Social General thing as displayed by the recent guy used for their supplies manager (I forget the name, always talking about balls) That's fundamentally ridiculous. It's an exaggerated stereotype, and wouldn't be promoted by anyone. Slavic/German settings like the Lyrans have are rife with secret societies, often started by military student Fraternities used to promote those members social and military ranking. Sure they're social generals, but they're not blatant fools, they're Nationalist Socialists, and they're very, very scary. They're experts at manipulating people, how do you think they ever got to that position in the first place. They're secret groups because secrecy is necessary when you're doing something that's not necessarilly "legal", and thre's often a very painful joining tradition because they need loyalcy and secrecy from members otherwise problems occur. All the same, a Merc that is part of one of these societies will get chosen first. If he screws up though...

By accepting the physical punishment, you agree that you will try harder and do better. So do the observers.

Corporal punishment in the military has a very long tradition. Everything from too much PT for recruits, to beatings for people that get out of line.

It helps bond soldiers in some cases because they go through a challenge.

To recieve this form of punishment, you have to do something wrong. It's not like it's being dished out left and right. In the end, money is probably not enough to risk life an limb for years, even decades. There has to be something greater. Love of brothers in arms can be that, betraying brothers in arms is among the greatest crimes you can commit in those circumstances however.

[Hersh67]

Yeah, I can say that the military is into physical 'discipline'.  I can remember being assigned 'remedial PT' after an incident in training.  I forget what it was called.  Might have been ASMO as in getting ASMOed.  Something to do with Motivational training...

[TS_Hawk]

...or more specifically mercenary discipline.

Every unit has those that don't pull their weight or who cause disruption to the running of said unit. While House forces have their own regulations and method of enforcement backed up by a government's powers, what do mercenaries do with insubordinate or workshy troops? Dock them pay is an obvious starting point but I'd imagine that most merc' commands might be reluctant to lose anyone who could be taking a 'mech with them.

What other techniques could be used to keep discipline cases in line? With mercenary units being basically a heavily armed commercial operation they don't have the methods and options available to House militaries (up to imprisonment for example) so what do they do to punish people with access to heavy weapon systems? How do they stop the entire thing devolving in to shoddy mess?

This could be done via your own house rules per se.  On what you do with them.. you could fire them or you could dock their pay or just whatever it is you feel like.  Mind you too this is a game so its however the dice roll too

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yeah, I can say that the military is into physical 'discipline'.  I can remember being assigned 'remedial PT' after an incident in training.  I forget what it was called.  Might have been ASMO as in getting ASMOed.  Something to do with Motivational training...

I knew an E7 once who was big on "wall to wall counseling", which is pretty much the same thing with Army Combatives.  Now, he was a pretty shitty NCO, I was glad to be rid of him when he transferred, but that had nothing to do with his counseling habits.

[Bad_Syntax]

Physical punishment was used in the American Army officially till 1861. It is still used unnoficially. I can see the AFFS also using it, as it has a machismo tradition.

Uhhh, as a US Infantryman from 1993-1997, and 2001-2005, I can say that it is *NOT* used, even unofficially.

There are also serious differences between "punishing" an enlisted, NCO, and officer.

Officers get bad OER (reviews) which can kill their ability for promotion.

NCO's get bad NCOER's (reviews) which can prevent them from hitting E7 (there are many bad E6's in the army)

Enlisted get bad counseling statements, but it doesn't mean anything.  Typically they can get put on "details", which are usually trash/kitchen/guard related, or in garrison for stupid little things they get "smoked", which means lots of push-ups, flutter-kicks, and whatever else a creative sergeant can think of to make the enlisted soldier think twice before doing whatever it was he did again.  When I was enlisted, I did a LOT of pushups for being a smart-a$$, a LOT, and it never taught me anything.  But I knew my job, and when I got sergeant I got all sorts of awards and such for being a good NCO.

Individual mercenaries who refuse orders would simply get *fired*, just like blackwater/Xi or any other private security firm.  Entire units may refuse to do something against their contract, or that is unlawful, but those are issues for courts when it comes to their contracts.

Mercs are people who join up just to fight, and make money, it isn't in their idiom to refuse an order to fight, and thus make money.  It is like professional athletes, they don't refuse to play.

You can read up about really undisciplined soldiers by reading up on the Lone Wolves.  You show up in the morning, get a day's pay, fight, and decide if you want to come back tomorrow.  But once you get paid, you don't refuse to fight, especially IN combat, else you immediately become hostile.

But in today's military soldiers aren't physically disciplined, and if they are for some reason, a quick call to the IG (investigators) means that NCO will soon be enlisted again, if not kicked out on a dishonorable or serving time in leavenworth. 

"Blanket parties", or a lot of soldiers putting soap in socks and beating up other crappy soldiers happened once or twice when I was in basic, and all the victims eventually dropped outta basic, they were just dragging the unit down and typically kinda psycho.  I never partook, but in some ways it was justified, and probably saved lives in the long run.  The drill sergeants would try to stop it from happening if they knew about it, and if they found out the entire platoon (or company) would be getting smoked for the rest of the night if not the rest of the week.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Running a mercenary unit along purely military lines makes no sense.

  There's no need for parades, no need for formations or other methods commonly used to control children in uniform.

  A mercenary soldier would be no different than any other adult, educated and skilled employee working on contract -he would know all the rules and parameters of his duties, what's expected of him, his obligations as well as his rights as a contracted employee.

  When a soldier signs up with a House unit he agrees to work within it laws and other parameters -He also signs away many rights a normal citizen may have -He is engaged in a contract of service. Being a mercenary is little different in that respect.

  Cowardice on the battlefield, refusal to obey lawful orders, breaking laws and other breaches of acceptable performance as outlined in a contract could result in adverse action -Fines, restriction to barracks, arrest, termination of contract and execution may result.

  Try getting a mercenary job with a quality unit if you have black marks on your record or unfavorable references. Sure, you probably could be hired by a marginal unit, getting paid far less than what you'd like so having a problem with discipline will have long term consequences -Maybe it will so bad that only a House unit will hire you.