Author Topic: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?  (Read 11474 times)

Imperium

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Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« on: 27 May 2020, 18:47:27 »
I think everyone knows who I will pick, but what general from ancient history to the modern era do you think is the greatest of all time and why?
" ALL WAR, is an extension of Politics." Carl Von Clausewitz, summarizing the Napoleonic Wars

"War therefore is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will." Clausewitz, Ibid.

rebs

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #1 on: 27 May 2020, 19:07:22 »
Hannibal Barca.  He survived for over a decade in hostile lands without reinforcements, and had Rome at its knees, even if he ultimately could not take the Eternal City.  In death, he became a boogeyman used to terrorize children before bed.

All that, and because elephants. 

Note the no elephants were harmed in the writing of this post.
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Imperium

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #2 on: 27 May 2020, 19:28:46 »
Hannibal Barca.  He survived for over a decade in hostile lands without reinforcements, and had Rome at its knees, even if he ultimately could not take the Eternal City.  In death, he became a boogeyman used to terrorize children before bed.

All that, and because elephants. 

Note the no elephants were harmed in the writing of this post.

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"War therefore is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will." Clausewitz, Ibid.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #3 on: 27 May 2020, 19:43:35 »
Hannibal is a good choice  :thumbsup:

but I will go with George S. Patton:
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And was either Loved or/and Hated by his men (my grandfather in WWII served in a recon unit under his command in Europe, RIP Grandfather) but either way he was able to get more out of them then thought possible at times.

Honestly he was a fighting general but not a political one.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2020, 19:56:38 »
Patton was the first name that popped into my head, too.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2020, 19:57:47 »
I considered Patton for my choice, as well.  Excellent choice.  "A good plan now is better than a perfect plan next week". 

That, and he was a fellow poker player.  I'd love to sit with him in a Texas Hold'em tourney.    :thumbsup:
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2020, 20:04:57 »
+1 for Patton
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2020, 21:01:41 »
Georgy Zhukov. Not a "nice" choice, but the man won battles. And was chosen to be the one to accept the German surrender.

Good enough to be lucky to survive Stalin's paranoia.
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Imperium

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #8 on: 27 May 2020, 21:30:08 »
Georgy Zhukov. Not a "nice" choice, but the man won battles. And was chosen to be the one to accept the German surrender.

Good enough to be lucky to survive Stalin's paranoia.

Uncle Joe often times complained about how he needed to do something about Zhukov for being too popular, "but he never failed me. " The jolly old figure would muse.

I considered Patton for my choice, as well.  Excellent choice.  "A good plan now is better than a perfect plan next week". 

Sounds similar to Napoleon's phrase, "I may lose a battle, but I never lose a minute. " Makes you wonder if these military thinkers ever study one another. Of course this leads to the phrase at the time of Napoleon's men: “the Emperor makes war not with our arms but with our legs”, as he was able to defeat enemies through attaining numerical superiority and surprise by utilizing forced marches (this was of course aided by his tactical doctrine of having his Corps (army divisions) "March separately but fight together. " With no Corps more then a days march away from another at any time. )

BTW I am not sure, but did Patton and Rommel ever face each other directly?
« Last Edit: 27 May 2020, 21:38:17 by Imperium »
" ALL WAR, is an extension of Politics." Carl Von Clausewitz, summarizing the Napoleonic Wars

"War therefore is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will." Clausewitz, Ibid.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #9 on: 27 May 2020, 21:31:40 »
Georgy Zhukov. Not a "nice" choice, but the man won battles. And was chosen to be the one to accept the German surrender.

Good enough to be lucky to survive Stalin's paranoia.

And Jason Isaacs is bloody spectacular as him in The Death of Stalin!


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Imperium

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2020, 21:38:38 »
And Jason Isaacs is bloody spectacular as him in The Death of Stalin!

I cried so hard over that!
" ALL WAR, is an extension of Politics." Carl Von Clausewitz, summarizing the Napoleonic Wars

"War therefore is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will." Clausewitz, Ibid.

elf25s

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #11 on: 27 May 2020, 22:35:06 »
alexander and zhukov
hands down
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2020, 01:21:54 »
Very difficult to determine who was the best because of the time periods/technology/land conquered and least casualties.

Is the best general/commander based upon least casualties because of his planning and execution? General Schwarzkopf wins the 1st Gulf war in 100 hrs. An unprecedented victory.

Most Land conquered? Alexander the great and Hannibal. However, they were not at war with any one country, but just wanted to conquer because they were just land grabbing for the time period.

Best Napoleonic general? Napoleon and Duke of Wellington

Best American Civil War general? Grant and Sherman.

Best WWI general? Douglas Haig

Best WWII general? Zhukov, Patton and Rommel.

and on and on and on...

Too many parameters to determine who was the best of all time, but if given only one choice, General Schwarzkopf. Least allied casualties, shortest time ever conquering a country from an enemy and destroying nearly 100% of the third largest military in the world at the time, all in 100 hours. The US politicians that wanted to complain about casualties and stopping the war never had a chance. It was over so quickly. That also was unprecedented.

However, that was just one war and not a global war either...

Even Alexander the great, Hannibal and Napoleon didn't fight a global war...




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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2020, 01:52:31 »
I've always liked the "history" of Han Xin from about 200 B.C China.
There may have been more spectacular leaders in battle, but no other had his skills at grand strategy, planning long term campaigns for both economy of resources as well as political goals. He also had no issues like an out of control ego, serving Liu Bang selflessly out of duty and gratitude....right up until he was betrayed and murdered...  ;D
I quoted "history" because the sources are decidedly....poetic... and the ancient Chinese were masters of revisionist history for propaganda  purposes, and while they typically didn't fly and shoot lasers from thier eyes, Chinese historical heroes were pretty improbable.  ;)

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2020, 02:16:20 »
There's no such thing as a 'Best WW1 General' Once it got to the trenches, every general on either side was nothing more than a butcher who sent soldiers out to die like lambs to the slaughter.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2020, 02:34:59 »
Patton was a good General but he had zero view for grand strategy or working with anyone else. The threat to the planet with the gravitational pull of putting him and monty's ego's in the same room was bad enough, add MacArthur into the mix and the sheer weight of their combined ego's would have formed a black hole.

Rommel too is over hyped, yes he was a good field commander but he came along at the right time when the British forces were exhausted and at the end of a long supply line. And he also had not much of a strategic view of things. Plus I feel Rommel gets off way too lightly as a 'nice' German Officer in WW2, for some reason he's got a better reputation than many Allied commanders post WW2.

As for the 'best' thats so hard to quantify, i'd put Alexander the Great up there though.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #16 on: 28 May 2020, 03:02:05 »
Hannibal is a good choice  :thumbsup:

but I will go with George S. Patton:
Olympic Athlete in 1912 - competed in modern pentathlon finished 5th.  And if the comment that his .38 pistol shots might have put 2 bullets though 1 hole, he could have won a medal.  Instead the judge rule he missed completely.
Designed the 1913 Cavalry Sword, last 1 issues as warfare was changing, but also published 2 manual on the use in mounted and unmounted swordsmanship, "Saber Exercise 1914", and "Diary of the Instructor in Swordsmanship".
One of the real fathers of the motorized warfare in USA.  Who beleived that Tanks should independant force not Inf support
Possible had 1 of the last real "Old West" gunfights while serving as part of the 1916's Pancho Villa Expedition.
And was either Loved or/and Hated by his men (my grandfather in WWII served in a recon unit under his command in Europe, RIP Grandfather) but either way he was able to get more out of them then thought possible at times.

Honestly he was a fighting general but not a political one.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #17 on: 28 May 2020, 08:51:06 »
Alexander the Great

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2020, 10:02:56 »

Genghis (call me Temujin) Khan.

Ho Chi Min

Alexander (third of his name in the line of Macedon) the Great

Julius (call me Gaius) Caesar

Napoleon (di Buonaparte) Bonaparte and Hannibal (son of Hamilcar) Barca (honorable mentions)

IMO, to earn the title of GOAT military commander, you have to demonstrate tactical wizardry, strategic genius, and beloved, visionary leadership.  Oh, and you have to win in the end.

I can think of tactical wizards like Guderian, Jackson, Lee, Leonidas, Patton, and Rommel.  These are the guys that understand maneuver and terrain and win battles.  But they either missed the big strategic picture or never got a chance to make those kinds of decisions.

I can think of strategic geniuses like Eisenhower, Grant, Ivar the Boneless, MacArthur, Themistocles, and Zhukov.  These are the guys that understand supply and logistics (theirs and the enemy’s) and how to flex national power to win wars.  But their battlefield record is either less impressive than the first group or not well known to us.

Many in both these groups were beloved by their men and/or visionary leaders.

But only Genghis, Min, Alex, and Caesar demonstrate all three attributes.  All four showed their tactical wizardry in specific battles and/or in the revolutionary tactics their forces put on display.  All four were strategic geniuses who understood the relative strengths and weaknesses of their nations and enemies in depth and employed them accordingly to win wars.  And all four were much loved by their men and had visionary foresight in where they wanted to take themselves and their people.

Napoleon and Hannibal get honorable mentions.  They also displayed all three attributes.  But they ultimately did not win.

Lastly, I’ll note that Genghis, Min, Alex, Caesar, and Napoleon had both military and political control.  That’s not true of most of the other names I’ve mentioned.  That may be a necessary condition to make the accomplishments required to be considered a GOAT military commander, at least as I’ve defined it.

Most Land conquered? Alexander the great and Hannibal.

Apologies for being nitpicky, but that title goes to Genghis.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2020, 10:16:28 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2020, 12:11:36 »
I'll chime in on the "hundred hour war" and point out that it's more like a thousand - the Gulf War started January 17, when the air power began hammering Saddam's forces.  And yes, ground units were in combat before the assault began at the end of February; the Iraqis outright invaded Saudi Arabia and ran into Saudi troops at Khafji.  They didn't get much farther, see prior air power, but the point is that the whole war lasted a lot longer than the four days it's given credit for.  Schwarzkopf was in command the whole time, so he deserves the credit for all of it.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #20 on: 28 May 2020, 16:15:37 »
Genghis wins on all counts.  If you believe all the reports, he killed more people than were alive on the planet at the time (THAT is some serious PSYOP).  And he certainly subjugated more land area than anyone else.  Min confined himself to Vietnam, so I'd put him below Alexander and Caesar in Natasha's list.  Napoleon and Hannibal both lost, so they're off the list in my mind.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #21 on: 28 May 2020, 18:20:29 »
He's also fathered a verifiable percentage of the entire ancestral population of mankind.  A small percentage, to be fair, but credit where credit's due to someone who literally rocked the planet.

Oh and yeah military leader, wins all the things, brilliant strategist, that all counts too.  Just a shame he couldn't get his kids to hold it together.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #22 on: 28 May 2020, 18:25:22 »
There's certainly something to being "the exception to every rule"...  ^-^

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #23 on: 28 May 2020, 20:30:03 »
Since I do not believe anyone has mentioned great naval commanders of all time, and partially in honor of today, I’d suggest Admiral Tōgō Heihachirō (noted for leadership of the Japanese fleet’s victory over the Russian fleet at the Battle of Tsushima), as well as Admiral Horatio Nelson (especially for his most famous victory over the French and Spanish fleets as the leader of the British fleet at the Battle of Trafalgar).

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #24 on: 28 May 2020, 23:48:20 »
 Personal choice is Irwin Rommel (but only because we share a birth date).
 For 1st World War generals I'd suggest Arthur Curry. He was able to lead the Canadian Corps out of the stalemate of the trenches. Admittedly the technique of the rolling barrage wasn't original, but he was able to perfect it. And that allowed the Canadians to start moving and taking enemy trenches.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #25 on: 29 May 2020, 01:41:54 »
There's no such thing as a 'Best WW1 General' Once it got to the trenches, every general on either side was nothing more than a butcher who sent soldiers out to die like lambs to the slaughter.

As much as I dislike him on principle [He is Australian afterall]

For WWI I would say General Monash of the Aussies. Damned good general.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #26 on: 29 May 2020, 13:34:12 »
George Rommel, the Desert Mason!  :D


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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #27 on: 29 May 2020, 14:20:45 »
If you believe all the reports, he killed more people than were alive on the planet at the time (THAT is some serious PSYOP). 

Was he at the Battle of Winterfell?

I'll throw in Fredrick the Great, took a little upstart Kingdom to one of the major powers of Europe and displaced Austria from the head of the German states. He used politics, strategy and tactics to accomplish all of this and frequently faced far greater numbers of opponents that he had men.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #28 on: 29 May 2020, 16:02:41 »
Heh, if he knew about it, he would certainly have claimed to have been...  ^-^

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #29 on: 29 May 2020, 17:49:04 »
Let me throw out a name no one has mentioned yet: Flavius Belisarius, of the  Byzantine Empire. Under Justinian I, he reclaimed a large chunk of the Roman Empire, ofter with varying level of troops, and considered one of the best military commanders in history.

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