BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: Neufeld on 20 March 2011, 14:19:55
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Let us discuss another fight: GHR-5H Grasshopper and ON1-K Orion.
According to BV, this should be an even match 1427 vs 1429.
Both are well armored upper-end heavies.
Grasshopper:
+ Jump-jets.
+ Less heat problems (+4 on jumping alpha)
+ Better short range firepower (4xML)
+ Less ammo (1 ton)
- Less armor.
- Less long-range firepower (LRM-5 & LL)
Orion:
+ More armor.
+ More long-range firepower (LRM-15 & AC10)
- Less short range firepower (2xML, SRM4)
- More ammo (5 ton)
- No jump-jets.
- Heat problems (+9 on running alpha)
Analyzing range brackets is pointless, the Grasshopper wants to close, the Orion wants to keep up the range to avoid a jump behind it.
Looks quite close to me, but I think the 'hopper has a little edge due to jump-jets and less chance that ammo goes boom.
So, who will win?
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I think the first few volley's could make all the difference in this kind of fight. (all other things being equal) Whether the Orion can score quickly with it's superior long range firepower or if the Grasshopper can close, take minimal damage and use it's superior short range firepower and jj's to possibly get a backstab.
Still....the Orion has a ton of armor and with just lasers for heavy firepower, the Grasshopper has no crit-seekers like SRMs. Of course, the Orion has more heat problems and if it either touches off an ammo explosion or gets slowed down and allows the Grasshopper to get into it's backfield then the game will go to the Grasshopper. I used the Grasshopper to good effect in a few of my games so I will vote for it. Grasshopper +1 Orion 0
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you would have to have the right terrain to give the advantage to the GH.
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It looks like one of those "whichever the terrain favours" kind of fights. If the grasshopper can close in while being covered by terrain, then it should stand a good chance of winning. If not, the Orion will probably win.
Grasshoppers are more fun though.
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It looks like one of those "whichever the terrain favours" kind of fights. If the grasshopper can close in while being covered by terrain, then it should stand a good chance of winning. If not, the Orion will probably win.
Grasshoppers are more fun though.
That's pretty close to what I was going to say .
If the terrain is there for the Hopper to make those medium and long range shots tough
then the Hopper should win .
If the terrain is moonscape or something with sparse cover then the Orion has the advantage .
I view the Orion as being a better contributor to a group but the Hopper as a
better duelest or escort .
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For a good match I was thinking more like ON1-K Orion vs. MAD-3D Marauder or GHR-5H Grasshopper vs. GLT-4L Guillotine. Though the last 2 are close to being the same mech.
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I'd rather be driving the Orion.
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Grasshopper. Less likely to go boom.
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Grasshopper. Less likely to go boom.
and a lot better lookin
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Eh, the big problem with the 'hopper is that its firepower is far better at sandblasting than hole punching, and its not equipped to crit seek. At range, it's outgunned (LRM-5 and LL vs. LRM-15 and AC-10), and even in close it only pulls even with the Orion for firepower (LL + 4 ML's vs. AC-10 + 2 ML's + SRM-4). Barring any extremely lucky dice rolls, the 'hopper's going to have to spend about 10 - 12 turns chewing through armor to get to internals, while the Orion with its better hole-punching ability is going to start going internal around round 8 - 9.
Basically, the Grasshopper has two means of winning. It gets into a knifefight and manages to stay in the Orion's six long enough to breach the back armor, or it gets really lucky early on and a lucky 2 causes one or two engine hits. If either of those things happens, the Orion loses. Otherwise, I see the Orion coming out on top of an extremely long, bloody battle of armor attrition.
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Honestly, I'd say they're pretty even, it comes down to the terrain and the roll of the dice.
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Yeas, this match will heavily depend on terrain and the fickle favor of the Dice Gods.
There is nothing wrong with the Orion but I have been a member of the Cult of the Grasshopper
for longer than I can remember. So Grasshopper gets my vote.
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I would have to go for the Orion in this fight mainly because of the heavier armor and firepower that it has for the entirety of the match. Plus the AC-10 with some SRM's to follow in are usually enough to start getting crits on the hopper at an earlier stage of the match.
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I think the Orion would be my preference, although it depends on terrain, initiative and luck more than anything. In either case a Warhammer would be my personal preference.
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I have seen this exact fight played out. Long story short the grasshopper won.. it was thrashed after the fact. It won using jump behind + mediums for several rounds got in a couple kicks.
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now the real question is tag team, Tbolt and Orion against hopper and crud :-)
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I give it to the Grasshopper. The Orion has better medium to long range firepower, but in all cases heat can be an issue. The Grasshopper can dump it's sad little LRM-5 ammo on turn 3 or so and not worry about heat as much. In the end, it isn't going to make or break the fight for it anyway.
If the Orion blazes away constantly with all the short range power it has, it heats up fast. And it needs to drop it's amount of fire significantly to cool off. The Grasshopper can keep jumping around and at least fire 4 mediums if it gets hot. If it gets to punch range it is better off firing the large and torso mediums and beating face.
Barring bad luck or highly unfavorable terrain (wide open plains with no cover approach) the Grasshopper should win more often than not.
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I'll back Mattlov's assessment. The ON will work better as a team player, or if it can inflict enough hurt during the closing phase, but the lack of heatsinks more than anything else will give the GHR a significant staying-power advantage in a furball. That's 28 damage every turn, one LL and 4 ML, and still running cool. The ON can use the AC/10 and either the pair of MLs or one and the SRM, for an average of about 20 damage, or it gets toasty. The GHR's JJ's just make closing an even worse idea for the ON, and it really can't avoid that for long.
In a lance-on-lance engagement, I'll go with the ON under most circumstances. One-on-one, I think I'd rather be in the GHR.
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Grass hopper...better mobility, less chance of ammo explosion, better heat dissipation. Love the firepower of the orion.
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In a lance-on-lance engagement, I'll go with the ON under most circumstances. One-on-one, I think I'd rather be in the GHR.
That is the way that I feel; particularly if you are fighting in close terrain.
I would definitely favor the Orion as part of a Lance.