Armored Fighting Vehicles Version M5 (it is a tradition now)

[Dave Talley]

the proverbial mirror to look around corners is back

[Fat Guy]

What's next, a 120mm Krummlauf so it can shoot around corners?   ;D

[Dave Talley]

nah,
a infantry vehicle with a pole and camera
you sneak up, but  be fully buttoned up,
on the end of the pole, camera and weapon, can be a small missle,
but my first thought was an old 106mm recoilless rifle, because of the
beehive round,
sneak up, ease it around the corner, camera first, then Bang! clear that area
while driving around with normal autocannon or AGL firing

[kato]

I'm surprised no Western nation hasn't followed the lead of the BMPT Terminator.

What lead? That thing never really sold in non-western countries either. Russia and Kazakhstan each operate around a company worth of these vehicles. The only one that actually uses it in significant numbers is Algeria which seems to have a policy of "let's buy the whole catalogue" with regard to armoured vehicles.

[kato]

a infantry vehicle with a pole and camera
you sneak up, but  be fully buttoned up,
on the end of the pole, camera and weapon, can be a small missle,

1981 wants its weapon ideas back.

[Dave Talley]

thats a drone job now,
i was just thinking of an add on to the camera idea
granted just adding  a remote weapon station to the extension
would do it, but now you are dealing with at least 200 lbs added to the extension
starts to be a boondoggle before it leaves the napkin, much less the drawing board

[ANS Kamas P81]

I'm just happy to see the helmet-mounted vision thing finally being a reality; took long enough to develop from the gaming set.

[Luciora]

Player 2, is that you?   Fight!

https://www.army-technology.com/features/streetfighter-challenger-2/

Urbanised upgrade, hence Streetfighter. 

[PsihoKekec]

I'm surprised no Western nation hasn't followed the lead of the BMPT Terminator. They all have excess tanks in storage they can switch out turrets with. Lots of situations where a light autocannon, machine guns, automatic grenade launchers and short range guided (even ungided) missiles would be much more appropriate than a 120mm tank gun. Basically infantry fighting vehicle firepower (on steroids!) with MBT protection.

Western nations prefer to rely on proper infantry-armor cooperation. Terminator is one of the answers to Grozny disaster, when poorly supported armor suffered heavy casualties to Chechen irregulars. Russian army is not fond of the vehicle though, preferring to keep the current force composition and actually train it's forces in proper urban combat tactics, the purchases so far had only been due to political pressure.

[DoctorMonkey]

I think the BMPT is also a declaration that you are intending to do an awful lot of damage to the city which would not go down well with Western sensibilities


Also, the Western powers are less likely to be deploying into the high rise areas (or have been doing so less) with deployments in sandy places rather than places that were on the T-72 side of the Iron Curtain

[kato]

The closest by vehicle is actually Germany with the Marder 1A5A1 armored to the maximum the drive train permits and massing as much as a full T-55.

The closest by doctrine - escorting tanks - is France with their concept of a tank company integrating effectively an infantry platoon with APCs with high-angle 20mm guns as well as VBL-mounted ATGM, intended to serve as a multi-vector escort and security screen.

[worktroll]

I'm surprised no Western nation hasn't followed the lead of the BMPT Terminator. They all have excess tanks in storage they can switch out turrets with.

I'm betting that it's an economy thing.

Take Challenger II - the Brits bought 408, with 168 in active service, and 59 in active reserve/training roles. Assume the 181 others are mothballed. Armour budget is X. I'm assuming most of it goes to keeping those 227 moving still moving, with minimum to support the mothballed units. Ask the CO "Do you want to retire another 20 tanks to mothballs, so we can buy & fit new turrets for 40 of the mothball fleet?" I can guess the response. Plus there's one supplier - Vickers Defence Systems - and they're closely coupled to the budget teat.

Now consider Russia. They have tens of thousands of mothballed tanks, and thousands of active tanks. They've got lots of (now) independant tank factories scattered across the post-Soviet landscape, desperate for business. At this point in time, the numbers of Armata MBT produced is somewhere between 10 and 100, so it's not like they're being bought in job lots. And with the money you can get, as a Russian tank manufacturer you could
- try and build something to compete with Armata (costly)
- try and compete with Poland, Ukraine, and others selling upgrade kits for T-72, T-64s, T-55s (fierce competition)
- throw a new turret on an old T-72 and call it by a fancy name

Can't find production numbers for Terminators on a cursory search, but the biggest order I can see was Algeria's for 300, and I'm assuming the hulls were taken from "shelf stock".

Plus the US Army probably doesn't intend to fight wars such as happened in Chechnya. Just a guess, that's what the Air Force is for.

[Charlie 6]

I'm surprised no Western nation hasn't followed the lead of the BMPT Terminator. They all have excess tanks in storage they can switch out turrets with. Lots of situations where a light autocannon, machine guns, automatic grenade launchers and short range guided (even ungided) missiles would be much more appropriate than a 120mm tank gun. Basically infantry fighting vehicle firepower (on steroids!) with MBT protection.

Roughly, 12 years ago when I still on active duty I showed that very picture to an infantry officer colleague and response when I told him what it was for, "why not just use a 500lb bomb?" 

[kato]

Can't find production numbers for Terminators on a cursory search, but the biggest order I can see was Algeria's for 300, and I'm assuming the hulls were taken from "shelf stock".

The Kazakh BMPT are probably new production vehicles delivered in two batches of 3 (in 2011) and 7 (by 2013) respectively, based around new T-72-based chassis. Supposedly there was another contract for a further 30 later, but it's a bit hazy whether that ever materialized.

The Algerian BMPT are Terminator II version and hence retrofit kits on pre-existing T-72 hulls.
The Russian BMPT (other than retained trials vehicles) are an unnamed retrofit version on pre-existing T-90A hulls (production: 11).

[DoctorMonkey]

Roughly, 12 years ago when I still on active duty I showed that very picture to an infantry officer colleague and response when I told him what it was for, "why not just use a 500lb bomb?" 

Or a friendly 155mm artillery battery?

The Kazakh BMPT are probably new production vehicles delivered in two batches of 3 (in 2011) and 7 (by 2013) respectively, based around new T-72-based chassis. Supposedly there was another contract for a further 30 later, but it's a bit hazy whether that ever materialized.

The Algerian BMPT are Terminator II version and hence retrofit kits on pre-existing T-72 hulls.
The Russian BMPT (other than retained trials vehicles) are an unnamed retrofit version on pre-existing T-90A hulls (production: 11).

I think I've read the same but am afraid I read it on Wikipedia and don't trust that for anything approaching current Russian military capabilities.


Another source I found, I think from RUSI based on a 2017 US DIA report or simply reposting it suggested a deployment of Russian tanks would be at a ratio of 1 BMPT per 2 gun tanks in a platoon for normal operations and 2 BMPTs "escorting" each gun tank in urban operations (Russia using a 3-tank platoon strength as normal)... or I may have got the BMPT information from Wikipedia after all, my notes and recollection aren't complete (notes made to aid scenario writing for hypotheticals and What If fic).


Another piece I read was from the Association of the US Army from 2016 on Lessons on Tanks in Hybrid Warfare in Israeli Experience, the Israeli experience suggests heavy APCs and .50cal HMGs with support from 120mm ammunition is sufficient but, as I think I posted earlier, the built landscape the Israelis, US and other "Western" countries have been operating in is quite different to a former-Eastern Bloc urban or built environment. I remember the images of Sarajevo under siege and as a battle ground from the 1990s  :'(


Urban warfare is bad for everyone.

[glitterboy2098]

it is interesting how with new technologies old and previously long dead doctrinal concepts get revived. first tankettes with the advent of remote operated Drones, and then Infantry Tanks in the form of the BMPT and similar vehicles.

[chanman]

Roughly, 12 years ago when I still on active duty I showed that very picture to an infantry officer colleague and response when I told him what it was for, "why not just use a 500lb bomb?"

Well...

1) The bomb doesn't look anywhere as cool in a parade
2) The bomb assumes the availability and presence of friendly aircraft at a time and place of the local commander's choosing which is... a lot more variables than "Was the BMP-T able to start this morning"

[worktroll]

Re 2), I believe it's fair to say US war-fighting doctrine is based around air superiority. I know, fighting the last war & all. Let's hope we don't find out in a hurry how the next war goes.

[Daryk]

*snip*
Urban warfare is bad for everyone.

THAT is an understatement...  :-\

[Charlie 6]

Well...

1) The bomb doesn't look anywhere as cool in a parade
2) The bomb assumes the availability and presence of friendly aircraft at a time and place of the local commander's choosing which is... a lot more variables than "Was the BMP-T able to start this morning"

The joys of being in a Marine Air Ground Task Force made the presence of air more reliable.

[Daryk]

The Marines have always done Combined Arms better than anyone...  :thumbsup:

[MechWarriorFox]

If fictional is OK, then have something from a setting that I'm working on. ;)


MBT-01A7X, which is the first to put an automated turret on the tank series.

The original MBT-01A7 tank, the last tank with an unautomated turret in Sol.

The MBT-01A8, the last tank in the SolForce arsenal that is armed with an ETC cannon...

The MBT-01A9, the first serial production tank in Sol with an electromotive weapon as its main armament.

The MBT-01A9M, the last of the MBT-01s and only recently coming out in-setting. ;)

(Thank Schwarzweiler for these)



The MBT-01 'General Williams' series of MBTs is one of the oldest MBT designs still in use in the solar system. Designed soon after the creation of SolForce as replacement part shipments were cut off, the MBT-01 was designed by the then newly-formed Solforce White Section wholely in-house but based off of the numerous designs that SolForce used up to that point.



Using a hybrid /torsion bar suspension, the MBT-01 series has consistently kept its cross-terrain ability throughout the centuries. With a top speed of 80km/h on-road and 50km/h off-road, it is quite a speedy tank for its weight.



Its primary armor is -oddly enough, similar to the concepts brought about by the fictional setting Battletech, although in hindsight this isn't exactly surprising as what was essentially EndoSteel was first revealed to the world in the 2010s. The armor is a composite of various materials including conventional and unconventional alloys, metal foams, composites, metallic and nonmetallic ceramics, and carbon nanotubes with a weave of electro-reactive armor and various materials. This allows the MBT-01 series to withstand numerous weapon impacts while retaining effectiveness. Now, unlike its fictional counterpart, it doesn't make anyone wearing it invulnerable to penetrations (or close to it depending on the rules you use), it simply makes penetrations (especially when double-digit megajoule energies or greater are being thrown around) uncommon. The thicker the plate, the more uncommon these penetrations are. The front of the MBT-01 series is one of the few that goes with the Battletech stereotype due to how thick the frontal plate is (250mm).



The active protection systems are also a key component to the MBT-01's lifespan on the battlefield. Consisting of a suite of electronic warfare equipment (requiring an electronic warfare officer (EWO)) and an active protection system suite. While systems like TROPHY were used, newer models utilize the 'HardKill' 2cm pulse laser CWIS units. While the electronic warfare suite would degrade ATGMs, the active protection system shoots them down alongside any recoilless rifle rounds or RPGs. The RWS mount with the 15.5mm HMG can do ADS in a pinch, but it isn't recommended.



The armament of the MBT-01 series has changed over the centuries, with the current models utilizing a 65mm coilgun instead of an Electrothermal Chemical cannon. Outside of the MBT-01 to MBT-01A2, the entire series uses an iridium-alloy dart instead of a depleted uranium or tungsten carbide dart as its armor-piercing round. Each round has a muzzle velocity of 2km/s as standard, giving the projectile kinetic energy measured in the double-digit megajoules. In eras previous, this would simply rip any tank apart. The coaxial is a 15.5mm or 15.5mm ETC-FLARE HMG, capable of unleashing rounds with 100kj of kinetic force onto any target. The RWS mount is configurable to use a 15.5mm HMG or a 60mm AGL system. All of these (and the ADS) is controlled by VGI (Virtual General Intelligence) fire control systems that utilize the extensive sensor suite that the tank has.



It has a crew of four (a driver, a gunner, an EWO, and a commander).



Stats:

• Name: MBT-01 'General Williams' 'Family'
• Type: Main Battle Tank
• Mission: Spearhead, Assault
• Mass: 65 tons
• Dimensions:
  Length: 8.25m
  Width: 4.5m
  Height: 2.75m
• Power Plant: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, 2,250kW (MBT-01 to MBT-01A6)/Fusion Cell, 2,750kW (MBT-01A7 to MBT-01A9)
• Suspension: Torsion Bar-Boogie
• Motive System: Treads
• Armor Composition and Thickness (fore/Sides/Rear/Top): Standard SolForce Light Vehicle Composite -ablative alloys, carbon nanotubes, various foam metals, diamond weaves, mango ceramics, polysilicate alloy, Iiridium-osmium alloy, molybdenum polyalloy- (250mm/175mm/75mm/100mm)
• Armament:
  Main: 150mm L/50 Smoothbore (MBT-01 to MBT-01A2)/90mm L50 Electro-Thermal Chemical Flashboard Large Area Emitter (ETC-FLARE) Cannon (MBT-X1A3 to MBT-01A5)/105mm L/55 ETC-FLARE Cannon (MBT-X1A6 to MBT-X1A7)/105mm L/55 ETC-FLARE in automated turret mount (MBT-01A8)/65mm L/55 Coilgun in automated turret mount (MBT-X1A9 to MBT-01A9)
  Coaxial: 15.5mm HMG (MBT-01 to MBT-01A5)/15.5mm HMG ETC-FLARE (MBT-01A6 to MBT-01A9)
  Secondaries: 15.5mm HMG or 60mm AGL on RWS Mount (MBT-01 to MBT-01A5)/15.5mm HMG ETC-FLARE or 60mm AGL on RWS Mount (MBT-01A6 to MBT-01A9)
  Countermeasures: 90mm countermeasure launchers (numerous, all models), 2x Trophy VI ADS (MBT-01 to MBT-01A5)/2x 2cm HardKill Laser ADS in CIWS mounts (MBT-01A6 to MBT-01A9)
• Electronics:
  Communications: SolForce White Section Standard Communications Array Mk 2 OR SolForce White Section Tank Platoon Command Vehicle Communications Array Mk 2
  Sensors: SolForce White Section Standard Tank Sensor Suite Mk 2
  Electronic Warfare: SolForce White Section Standard Small Vehicular Electronic Warfare Suite
• Top Speed (Road/Off-Road): 80 km/h / 50 km/h

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The M103, America's last heavy tank before the Main Battle Tank rendered heavy tanks obsolete.  And, as far as I can tell, like every other heavy tank the US built, it never actually saw combat.

[kato]

like every other heavy tank the US built it never actually saw combat.

The M26 Pershing, originally designed as a heavy tank (reclassified in '46) saw plenty of combat.

[marauder648]

Ya folks ever heard of this little thing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Tracked_Carrier



Or the FV401 Cambridge Carrier, that replaced the Oxford.





Also MechWarrior Fox those tanks and their background are really cool! Darn nice work! :)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The M26 Pershing, originally designed as a heavy tank (reclassified in '46) saw plenty of combat.

The M26 got designated a heavy based on its gun.  Once the US Army came up with a consistent definition of what it meant to be a heavy tank, it was determined not to be one, so it doesn't count.  For the majority of its combat history it was a medium.

[grimlock1]

If fictional is OK, then have something from a setting that I'm working on. ;)

I know I've been watching too much Inside the Chieftain's Hatch because first thought was, "where does the crew sleep?" followed by "No bustle rack? Boo. Hiss."  :-)

[DoctorMonkey]

I know I've been watching too much Inside the Chieftain's Hatch because first thought was, "where does the crew sleep?" followed by "No bustle rack? Boo. Hiss."  :-)

Will it pass the "help help, my tank is on fire!" test?

[Sabelkatten]

If that's the driver's hatch right under the turret there might be some problems...

[worktroll]

There are other real-world tanks with that problem - IIRC, the Armata may be one? One of the more recent Soviet tanks, for example.

The hatch may well be offset to one side, but then it relies on the turret being perfectly straight ahead if you want to get out.