Author Topic: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder  (Read 979 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« on: 31 March 2024, 19:28:18 »
In the 3050s, the Capellan Confederation was still struggling to rebuild itself after the destruction of the 4th Succession War followed by decades of mismanagement from an insane ruler.  A new round of peaceful relations with the Free Worlds League gave them sudden access to Star League tech, and Sun Tsu Liao used this to order the construction of several brand new mechs for his forces, including the Thunder (the original TRO 3055 credits Romano with the Thunder's creation and reception of the mech despite her having been dead for three years at that point).



First walking off the assembly line in 3055, the THR-1L Thunder is a 70 ton mech built as a heavy cavalry machine.  Powered by a 350 XL engine, it's able to reach a top speed of 86 kph while still retaining an impressive amount of tonnage for weaponry and armor.  The use of 13.5 tons of standard armor plating gives it near-max protection while retaining plenty of internal space, as does the use of a standard chassis.  All parts of the mech save the center torso are at their maximum protection.  That makes it fast and tough, so what has it got in the way of weapons?

The primary armament is a Kali Yama Big Bore AC/20 in the right arm and right torso.  I have absolutely no idea why two critical slots were left open in the right arm and two crits for the gun were stuck into the torso, but this design flaw means that it can only fire the gun into its front arc.  Three tons of ammo sit in a CASE-protected bin in the left torso.  For additional weaponry, a trio of medium pulse lasers are set one in each torso (right, left, and center), while an LRM-5 in the left torso provides token long-range firepower, with its ton of ammo also protected by the same CASE as the autocannon's.  With one extra heatsink mounted in the engine, its 22 dissipation is capable of handling the mech's heat even in those rare instances when it fires the LRM pod with the rest of its weapons, with only 1 point of heat generated on a running alpha strike.  At the time of its debut, people who forgot that the Saladin hovertank and Hammerhead ASF existed called it "the fastest AC/20 in the Inner Sphere."

The original was good, but technology shifted rapidly in the years since its debut so in the 3060s it was given a pair new variants.  The first, the THR-2L, showed up in 3063, while the THR-3L appeared in 3066.

Both variants changed up things quite a bit.  The engine was retained, but the armor and weaponry were both given an overhaul.

In both cases, the armor was replaced with the CC's new Stealth Armor.  Definitely a good choice on the 2L, and the 3L gets benefit out of it but it arguably wasn't as necessary a change.

For weaponry, the 2L went with a modernized version of the 1L.  The autocannon is now an LB 20-X, still fed by a three-ton bin in the left torso.  The lasers now consist of a pair of ER Mediums located in the right and center torso, along with an ER small laser in the left arm.  And realizing that a single LRM 5 isn't sufficient to intimidate even a Locust, it was replaced with a Streak SRM 6 for extra crit-seeking.  A Guardian ECM controls the Stealth Armor from the right torso.  The 22 heat dissipation of the mech is no longer close to keeping up with all its new weaponry and the Stealth Armor, but TSM was added to take advantage of that heat.  Personally, I'm not a fan of combining TSM with streak missiles.  It's really hard to manage your heat levels when you don't know whether or not the missiles will fire.  In order to fit all this, half a ton of armor was removed, dropping its protection down to 13 tons.  This was attained by stripping 2 points out of each arm and leg.

The 3L is mostly a variant of the 2L.  The ER small is removed to restore armor protection up to the 1L's level, and the ER medium laser from the right torso was moved to the left torso while the Guardian was moved to the left arm.  These changes were necessary to fit the enormous Arrow IV artillery missile launcher into the right arm and torso.  Due to weighing a ton more than the LB 20-X from the 2L, it's only able to carry 2 tons of ammo, limiting its choices of munitions, but that's fine because the mech is also out of internal space for anything else.  Technically this variant can run hot, but most of the time you're probably only going to be firing the Arrow IVs while keeping the stealth armor on to make it harder for scouts to find, so you shouldn't have too much trouble with heat.  Arguably, the mech doesn't even need the stealth armor, but since 2 ER mediums and a Streak 6 aren't sufficient to defend itself at close range, having the stealth to make it harder to shoot you while you flee is a good thing.

One last variant exists and it's a substantial departure from the others.  Showing up in TRO Prototypes, the THR-C4 debuted in 3083, after the Jihad, and it's quite different from the others.  For starters, the engine is downgraded to a 280 X, resulting in a drop in top speed down to 65 kph, but mobility is increased by the addition of six improved jump jets.

The armor is the same 13.5 tons of standard plate as the original, with the same layout, but the internal structure is now Endo-Steel.

And for firepower, the big gun in the right arm is now a big missile, as it's home to a Thunderbolt 20 launcher with 4 tons of ammo.  The Thunderbolt's more compact design means that it, and the ammo bin, and CASE II for protection can all fit into that arm.  Three ER medium lasers now rest in the left arm, while a medium x-pulse later sits in its head.  The mech's 24 heat dissipation is not sufficient to cover all this, especially while jumping, so watch the heat.  And also remember that Thunderbolt missile warheads don't arm if the target is inside the missile's minimum range, resulting in them only doing half damage.



Fighting a 1L is simple in theory but harder in practice- shoot it before it gets into range of its AC.  Which isn't all that easy when it moves 5/8 and is protected by basically-max armor.  The 2L is similar, but further complicated by Stealth Armor.  And if you do get close to either of them, take advantage of the blind spot they have in their right arc.  With the 3L, it's an artillery mech- get close but watch for physical attacks.  For the C4, bring an AMS- single missile tube weapons hate that thing.  And get close enough that the minimum range insures that you'll only take a 10 point hit when the AMS doesn't shoot down the missile.  As far as fighting in a Thunder goes, don't do it alone.  The Thunder is a team player, it works best when it's got some buddies to watch its back and provide long range support while it closes.

And that's the Thunder in a nutshell.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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17thRecon

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #1 on: 01 April 2024, 10:27:06 »
Nice write up. This is one of the few Mechs where I like the original better than any variant…but the C4 is kind of interesting. I’m surprised the was never a Gauss variant; seems like that would keep the same effect but give it more long range punch to fight it’s way in with.

My only gripe ever is the gargantuan gun arm. I like the 2nd picture you posted (where is that from?), it makes the cannon arm look more “natural”.

Minemech

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #2 on: 01 April 2024, 11:16:01 »
Nice write up. This is one of the few Mechs where I like the original better than any variant…but the C4 is kind of interesting. I’m surprised the was never a Gauss variant; seems like that would keep the same effect but give it more long range punch to fight it’s way in with.

My only gripe ever is the gargantuan gun arm. I like the 2nd picture you posted (where is that from?), it makes the cannon arm look more “natural”.
I like the fact that it goes with the big bore autocannon all the way, but it could still go more so. The original retains its sweet BV range.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #3 on: 01 April 2024, 11:25:35 »
Nice write up. This is one of the few Mechs where I like the original better than any variant…but the C4 is kind of interesting. I’m surprised the was never a Gauss variant; seems like that would keep the same effect but give it more long range punch to fight it’s way in with.

My only gripe ever is the gargantuan gun arm. I like the 2nd picture you posted (where is that from?), it makes the cannon arm look more “natural”.

The second image is the C4 from TRO Prototypes.
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17thRecon

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #4 on: 01 April 2024, 11:39:50 »
Cool. If they end up making a Thunder in plastic, I hope they base it off that art. It works for an AC/20 and/or the Thunderbolt 20.

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #5 on: 01 April 2024, 14:36:09 »
Man, my kingdom for a new Thunder sculpt. I always loved the Mech, but that miniature is a dog.

As for use... it was fun to see something like this come out in '55. We had the Hunchback showing that a modest-sized Mech could haul an AC/20, but here we had a non-assault that not only carried one, but did so at impressive speeds- even now, nearly a century later, a Thunder bum-rushing a target to deliver pain is a sobering sight. One of Liao's most underrated units, particularly with the Lao Hu's debut a few years later.

I actually don't mind the MPLs here, despite my usual loathing of them- the cannon relies on closing in to the point that the MPLs are going to probably get in range anyway. Replacing them with standard mediums would free up enough weight to bump the LRM up a notch, and that would be kind of nice, but as it is this is a nasty customer in-close, and fast enough to actually get there.

The LRM though... I could do without a token LRM-5 on a Mech this big. Does an LRM-5 scare anyone at all? It's a token long-range attack that does an average of three points of damage, five max, and just adds an unnecessary torso bomb for what it supplies. Replacing it with an SRM-4 would have made me a lot happier (and makes the Thunder feel a little like a faster, non-jumping Victor, which it really is anyway). As before, dropping the MPLs down to standards frees three tons, exactly enough to bump to an LRM-10... still not a sobering weapon, but more useful than the 5 is, at least.

...Still not sure what's up with those knees though.
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garhkal

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #6 on: 01 April 2024, 14:44:35 »
Shifting the MPL's to reg (or ER mediums), would free up three tons, to shift the LRM 5 (2 tons), to an LRM-10 (5 tons).  OR add in a 2nd LRM-5...   
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Minemech

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #7 on: 01 April 2024, 15:06:38 »
 You could always go TSM + X-Pulse if you cannot get a hold of Clan grade Mediums Pulsers. This is just a mech that still has so much potential.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #8 on: 01 April 2024, 16:10:13 »
Man, my kingdom for a new Thunder sculpt. I always loved the Mech, but that miniature is a dog.

Agreed!

Quote
As for use... it was fun to see something like this come out in '55. We had the Hunchback showing that a modest-sized Mech could haul an AC/20, but here we had a non-assault that not only carried one, but did so at impressive speeds- even now, nearly a century later, a Thunder bum-rushing a target to deliver pain is a sobering sight. One of Liao's most underrated units, particularly with the Lao Hu's debut a few years later.

Yeah, despite their similarities the two mechs really fulfill very different roles.  The Lao Hu is really something of an oversized Centurion that advances towards you while repeatedly adding a new gun to what it can hit you with as it does so.  The Thunder is an in-your-face brute that gets close while making your life constant pain.

I actually don't mind the MPLs here, despite my usual loathing of them- the cannon relies on closing in to the point that the MPLs are going to probably get in range anyway. Replacing them with standard mediums would free up enough weight to bump the LRM up a notch, and that would be kind of nice, but as it is this is a nasty customer in-close, and fast enough to actually get there.

Quote
The LRM though... I could do without a token LRM-5 on a Mech this big. Does an LRM-5 scare anyone at all? It's a token long-range attack that does an average of three points of damage, five max, and just adds an unnecessary torso bomb for what it supplies. Replacing it with an SRM-4 would have made me a lot happier (and makes the Thunder feel a little like a faster, non-jumping Victor, which it really is anyway). As before, dropping the MPLs down to standards frees three tons, exactly enough to bump to an LRM-10... still not a sobering weapon, but more useful than the 5 is, at least.

...Still not sure what's up with those knees though.

The best use for the LRM 5 that I can think of is smoke rounds.  Give yourself some impromptu cover while you advance.  Very little other use for it, I'm glad the other variants dropped it.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #9 on: 01 April 2024, 17:44:57 »
The Victor's little brother.

I'll echo the thought that the original Thunder art was a bit of a disservice to the design, I didn't really take a close look at the mech until the CGL era (the mech looks regal on the cover of Wars of the Republic Era air dropping with the Emperor) the fact the Thunder inspired another design, the Lightning show it already has left a enduring legacy alongside the CapCon's other heavy hitters.
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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #10 on: 01 April 2024, 19:13:38 »
I like the idea of it, but I hate armor protection that usually caves when you go toe to tow.  It's close-range fighter, it has XL.  Unfun thing happen generally.

I do think it's strange the THR-C4 (or did it? I'm not fan of sometimes MUL says something, but it's not necessary the case.) go into production.  There really nothing wrong with it except era it's in, Mechs are rare. Liaos are laying low (literally, burying half their army underground in many cases.)  AMS would ruin this thing's parade,  I don't think AMS is as common as it would make it tough use it's big weapon.   

I think perhaps reason there been no gauss rifle variant since, well there a lot gauss rifle packing Liaos mechs. 
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #11 on: 01 April 2024, 20:01:41 »
I tend to refer to TRO Prototypes as "the forgotten TRO" because it was full of a bunch of oddball designs that were put into the book and then never mentioned again.  With the only exception being in the Patton entry in the Recognition Guides.
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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #12 on: 01 April 2024, 21:18:59 »
I tend to refer to TRO Prototypes as "the forgotten TRO" because it was full of a bunch of oddball designs that were put into the book and then never mentioned again.  With the only exception being in the Patton entry in the Recognition Guides.
That type of work needs a mix of good timing and hook. I was skeptical when I purchased XTRO: Marik, but the Jackal was a very good opener (As well as its remarks on how it was received), the Hermes II was funny, the ON3 very mismatched which was neat, the Awesome was a neat surprise, the Pandarus kinda stole the show among the mechs and I am glad is now fielded in a serious form, and the Sarissa was fun. I actually liked the Phalanx tank as a concept (Not so much on its terms of countering the Myrmidon) whilst appreciating the others. The Fighters and PWS were good additions, but the Longinus seemed random, which is necessary for such a work. It was fun.

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #13 on: 02 April 2024, 14:11:20 »
As a Capellan player, I want to love the THR-C4 so much more than I actually do. But despite having used it many times, I've just never gotten the performance out of it that it feels like it should have on paper. The 2L, on the others, is a terrifying eviscerator that absolutely cleans up in larger games.


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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #14 on: 02 April 2024, 14:58:55 »
It really is a ambush predator, lives or dies by initiative rolls
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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #15 on: 04 April 2024, 00:18:53 »
So... I'm scratching my head as to how any internal loading takes place with the big bore weapon.  Even if using two-part ammo, that's a heck of a shell to have to pass from the torso to that gun arm.  The T-Bolt 20 one looks even more awkward. 

The how does this work thing aside, this is another one of those (minus the A4 one) units that has to come well within range of many different weapons in order to try to do its job.  Yes, there's terrain to consider, but unless you are really close, an AC-10, PPC, large laser, etc. is going to have way better odds of scoring a hit than that AC-20, assuming that the AC-20 is even in range. Yes, it's probably better than the melee 'mechs, but still... Even with near max armour, cockpit hits happen.

I don't care how fast you move, or how big a short-ranged gun you have, you've still got a problem against things that out range you.  This, the original Atlas, original hunchbacks, and other units with AC-20's just don't have a place in my forces if I have a choice. 

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #16 on: 04 April 2024, 00:27:30 »
The trick to using something like the Thunder is to absolutely avoid using it by itself.  Yes, it's got to get close, but it's reasonably quick and well-armored.  Team it up with a Wraith and a Huron Warrior and it's suddenly a toss up as to which one you want to shoot.  Can you afford to ignore the medium mech with the Gauss Rifle that's firing at you from range while the Thunder closes?
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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #17 on: 04 April 2024, 01:04:08 »
So... I'm scratching my head as to how any internal loading takes place with the big bore weapon.  Even if using two-part ammo, that's a heck of a shell to have to pass from the torso to that gun arm.  The T-Bolt 20 one looks even more awkward. 
it's one of the biggest examples of how the big gun barrels on mechs have to be a cosmetic housing, and just hiding some sort of smaller multibarrel assembly inside.

Minemech

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #18 on: 04 April 2024, 06:55:24 »
 The gun barrel was supposed to be intimidating. It simply ended up looking cartoonish.

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #19 on: 04 April 2024, 10:54:08 »
I like the Thunder. It's like a Hunchback for the post-Helm period: reasonably fast, well protected and has no illusion about being anything but a short-range beatstick. And it's cheap, too, at just under 1500 BV. Simply perfect to slip into a medium cavalry lance.

So here's a question to consider: Would you rather take the -2L with it's slightly longer reach and stealth armor or the -1L with a better pilot? A Thunder -1L with a (4/3) pilot comes out to 1942 (vis a vis a Thunder -2L at 1952). Or you could really crazy with a (2/5) pilot at 2059 BV. Slightly more expensive than the upgraded Thunder, but you can really make those shots count...
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Minemech

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #20 on: 04 April 2024, 11:24:03 »
I like the Thunder. It's like a Hunchback for the post-Helm period: reasonably fast, well protected and has no illusion about being anything but a short-range beatstick. And it's cheap, too, at just under 1500 BV. Simply perfect to slip into a medium cavalry lance.

So here's a question to consider: Would you rather take the -2L with it's slightly longer reach and stealth armor or the -1L with a better pilot? A Thunder -1L with a (4/3) pilot comes out to 1942 (vis a vis a Thunder -2L at 1952). Or you could really crazy with a (2/5) pilot at 2059 BV. Slightly more expensive than the upgraded Thunder, but you can really make those shots count...
I prefer the 1L. Some of the decisions behind the 2L were right.

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #21 on: 06 April 2024, 14:26:00 »
I'd be interested in seeing what a "modernized" upgrade to the -1L would look like. Although looking at the -2L I can see much more synergy with the Lightning than I thought there would be.

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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #22 on: 06 April 2024, 21:45:05 »
I do like the fact the 2L makes it a little easier for the Thunder to get closer while the TSM takes advantage of the heat.
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Re: Mech of the Week: THR Thunder
« Reply #23 on: 06 April 2024, 22:03:56 »
Man, my kingdom for a new Thunder sculpt. I always loved the Mech, but that miniature is a dog.

My good friend SchwerpunktPrinzip did labour mightily, and turned a Lightning into an excellent Thunder. Just can't find the pic he posted!
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