Advantages of light 'Mechs

[Arkansas Warrior]

  That makes no sense at all. Production doesn't dictate tactics, it's the other way around. If a House requires fast, Medium 'Mechs, factories are told to produce fast, Medium 'Mechs. The SLDF could have entire regiments of heavy 'Mechs yet would field entire companies of Lights. Would the Clans ever abandon the production of Light Omnis because they can change all of their production to Heavies at the snap of a Khan's finger?

As long as there is warfare with 'Mechs, there will be a demand for Lights.

In Battletech?  Where Corean has a factory on New Avalon that produces Valkyries by the score, but it’s basically a black box that no one dared mess with for centuries?


“A shame about that heavy company that got shattered by the Kuritas, Colonel.  The good news is that Procurement has reserves inbound, they should arrive next month.”


“Already?  I’m surprised they could get a dozen heavy Mechs to us so fast!”


“Oh, no Colonel.  You misunderstand.  They’re sending you a dozen Valkyries.”


“But the mechs I lost were Marauders and Warhammers.”


“Yes, well.  As you say, they can’t get us a dozen heavies that fast.  And anyway, other units that are higher priority are getting the ones that are available.  You get a dozen Valkyries.”

[Paul]

Actually production dominates tactics in the reality.

This. Despite what someone else in the thread seems to think.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The resource is always limited, even for the most superpower nations. You may suggest to making some kind of units, but if you order the expensive one it is unlikely that you can get enough of them.

  That might limit number of units in the field but the tactics won't change at all, considering little has changed in decades.

  The production of the Merkava tank was halted due to a change in tactics -The MBT was only useful on a conventional battlefield and suffered fighting insurgencies. Tactics dictated production.

 

The forts could have held (Or at least performed far better). Too much of their garrison was drunk. It was so bad that some were taken by single soldiers.

  That may have been so during the Sitzkrieg, which was more like the Cold War but once the border was crossed, that just wouldn't happen. Ironically, the Maginot Line lasted longer than the conventional French forces, the Germans were only able to capture about 10% of the facilities before the government ordered the remaining forts to surrender. All in all, the theory of substituting a defensive wall in place of an army failed.

Belgium simply didn't have enough of a military to stop a determined land invasion.  They were too small a country.

  Their defense was based on slowing an invader long enough for their allies to respond. It happened with Waterloo...

don't forget the french relied in big tanks that in the end prove to be hanger queens but as far as the public was concern those tanks plus the line would push any invasion out

  French tanks were superior to those fielded by the Germans. France actually had superior mobile forces but lacked in leadership and they learned nothing from the Blitzkrieg in Poland -They were still fighting WW1.

 

The issue was that France (and everyone else) didn't think it was physically possible for Germany to advance as quickly as it did- it took Germany three days to cross ground that French military experts expected them to take two weeks.

  Lord Gort, commander of the BEF, expected that he would have two or three weeks to prepare for the Germans to advance 100 kilometres (60 mi) to the Dyle but the Germans arrived in four days.

  Back on topic...

  Light 'Mechs just aren't used by major characters in the BTU -The real celebrities pilot heavies and assaults, which allows them to be gods of the battlefield. Nobody wants to read about some bug 'Mech playing hide and seek with another bug 'Mech, because they'd be nickel-and-diming each other, if they hit at all, instead of vaporizing their enemies.

 

The thing that lights do not do well in a phone booth battle (99.9% of what we play in the tabletop) does not make lights useless, just less than optimal (yes, you can say useless) in that particular environment.

  I'd say the average BT player doesn't use their Lights well in phone booth battles...few 'Mechs use an entire board for movement, even lights. With the maneuverability of most Lights, I own slower 'Mechs.
 



 

[Greatclub]

Greyson and Lori before they got other rides, and a few supporting characters. The light guard guys in the warrior trilogy and 'recon company' guys from malicious intent are the ones that immediately came to my mind.

[Paul]

    I'd say the average BT player doesn't use their Lights well in phone booth battles...few 'Mechs use an entire board for movement, even lights. With the maneuverability of most Lights, I own slower 'Mechs.

Yeah, I agree here. Though it's largely because of how the base game works. It's meant for 4 on 4 knife fights, and that's not the environment a Light can generally shine in. As you point out, their key role is being the eyes of the larger formation. And most players rarely play at that scale, even in RP.

Now, I'm running a campaign with a merc recon company, and its mostly lights. It's fun. But only because of the heavy, heavy RP component.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

As you point out, their key role is being the eyes of the larger formation. And most players rarely play at that scale, even in RP.

  That's because BT isn't a wargame. My game club was lucky because we were basically a wargame club and we had several Army veterans, two of whom were recon trained. Scouting missions are closer to chess than playing WH40K, and few BT players have the patience or discipline for it. Most just want to charge into combat, whereas, in one campaign, my recon character was a mercenary who had to fire his weapons maybe twice in over a decade of play... Most players couldn't handle that.

[Maingunnery]

  That's because BT isn't a wargame. My game club was lucky because we were basically a wargame club and we had several Army veterans, two of whom were recon trained. Scouting missions are closer to chess than playing WH40K, and few BT players have the patience or discipline for it. Most just want to charge into combat, whereas, in one campaign, my recon character was a mercenary who had to fire his weapons maybe twice in over a decade of play... Most players couldn't handle that.

Yep, the ideal usage can often require a specific mindset. Some have it, some learn it, the rest simply don't.

[Paul]

Most players couldn't handle that.

More to the point: most people aren't interested in that kind of game at all. So why subject yourself that only the GM finds fun?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

More to the point: most people aren't interested in that kind of game at all. So why subject yourself that only the GM finds fun?

  True, most are happy playing "D&D but with robots" scenarios. I played BT for years without bothering to learn the factions or backstory because I was never into sci-fi themes. I don't know half the factions from Star Trek and I consider "Spaceballs" as the best Star Wars episode, even though I've never watched through the whole film.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

  That might limit number of units in the field but the tactics won't change at all, considering little has changed in decades.

  The production of the Merkava tank was halted due to a change in tactics -The MBT was only useful on a conventional battlefield and suffered fighting insurgencies. Tactics dictated production.

But the SLDF officers are have to rely on the old tactics until they replace most of their Merkava to the newer one, or do their best to make the makeshift tactics with these outdated machines. And you know, the new production costs not so insignificant time. Before then, all the frontline units can do is just utilize what they have as best as possible.

The change of meta calls for the change of production, of course, but still the production matters in the reality because it determines what you actually have. On a computer game, you simply put what you want without such matters. On a RPG, the game master can rules what you have so at least the initial spend is not so problematic depend on your persuade skill. But even on there, there are the concept of limiting resource. And you can't set each person/faction's assets as you want in the reality.

Seriously, you can't use the cavalry tactics without a cavalryman or a horse(or its equivalence). That's why Aztecs were not using the cavalry for century, and many nations on the history are short on cavalry, for example. They don't use cavalry much because they thinks that infantry is far better. Actually it's half correct - infantry is actually far better, not for their sheer prowess, but the cheaper cost to make up the difference. So the truth is, they CANNOT use massive cavalry.

It is not a secret that only a handful of elite cavalry units are able to decimate the infantry units that far outnumbers them in the pre-modern era, and the history proves it. But in the reality, almost all nations of the era were still utilize the massive number of infantry, despite of the fact that a cavalry is worth a dozen of infantry or more. I remember that only the modern times(around 18th to 19th) cavalry have very high percent in the army of western europe, despite horse is still not so cheap to get(and you can't acquire them so fast either).

Yes, there are some specialized job that is not so easy on horseback. But it is not the only reason. it is because the most nations are not able to afford enough horse and train such a massive number of cavalryman. Only the nomadic nations are possible to do, for they are have to learn the riding skills and hunting, which is essential to cavalry. But the rest of them are not able to afford such expense.

Also, even if you want to have a battalion size of brand new M1 Abrams, if all you can pay for and/or access for the market is a battalion size of M4 Medium Tank, it just results you to have a battalion of M4 Medium Tank. I think that it is nothing wrong to replace M1 Abrams to heavy/assault(or even medium) mech and replace M4 Medium Tank to bad light mech.

And, speaking of horse, although there are very niche area that horse is actually better than the car, but the concept of real 'horseback rider' is virtually extinct in the militaries of our era. However, if you are a local militia commander, and can't buy even a jeep, but you can buy(or already have) a bunch of horse, all you can do is utilize the horse, not the tank tactics.

Remember, all you can got is all you can use.

[Greatclub]

I think he was talking about the real Merkava - although those might have had a recent production run(?)

edit - those make excellent sci-fi looking tanks, though the scale is a bit small for battletech.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Oh, the real one? I didn't aware that. Although it doesn't change my point, because it's all the same.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

edit - those make excellent sci-fi looking tanks, though the scale is a bit small for battletech.

  BT scale is too large/bulky... But that's intentional to give people more details to paint. Medium tanks are larger than same scale Abrams... I started playing Micro armor in 1974 and when I saw BT vehicles, they were huge for their tonnage. The same for battlemechs -far too bulky to be just a layer of armor over components, which meant BTU armor was incredibly bulky, like protective styrofoam slabs.

[RifleMech]

Yes but only in certain places and not a continuous line, which hadn't been built with airborne forces in mind.

I thought they had some but they weren't effective. Thanks. :)

The forts could have held (Or at least performed far better). Too much of their garrison was drunk. It was so bad that some were taken by single soldiers.

 :o Yikes!

[SCC]

  Then you may have fallen into my trap. A lance of Locusts could walk backwards from most pursuers and pelt them with volleys of LRMs, often without reply. By the time you decide to run, you may escape if I allow it.
  My usual strategy is to place a priority in destroying enemy scout assets, as I consider recon the most vital units of any military force. Many campaigns devolve into regiments stomping around like so many thousand pound gorillas and taking out their recon elements renders one of those gorillas blind. Many players say: "I'll just beeline for my target." That's fine, because if I know that, I can prepare mines, ambushes, pre-plotted artillery points, and all manners of obstacles to buy time for my defenders to turn the target into a death trap. Send out a lance of fast mediums to act as ersatz scouts, and they will be jumped by a company of Lights. Send out a company and a battalion will ambush them.
  Campaign operations are never set scenarios, balanced for fairness -the players determine the forces that fight and the player who possesses the most accurate intel often has the initiative and the ability to choose when, where and what forces fight.
Some wargamers make a point to never fight a battle that wasn't already won, so take great pains to stack the deck in their favor. If the fight is fair, somebody screwed up. 

  The tactic of harassing an opponent is to goad them into making a predictable and often irrational action.

I'm not sending a noticeable part of my force, I'm sending something like a Valkyrie, a stock Locust or even a simple Savannah Master, or maybe two of any of them.

[Minemech]

 People who are used to playing with large formations had better have learned some patience on the way.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I'm not sending a noticeable part of my force...

  That's the point. You consider your Lights as expendable and trivialize their value. In campaign, my Light assets have greater value than my Heavies and Assaults, as they are my eyes on the bigger picture, and will determine where, when and how I destroy my opponent.

  Goading an opponent into committing an irrational action is as old as Light cavalry.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

But that's because it is RECON, not because it is light mech. Cutting the recon makes the entire unit to lost their eyes and ears, but lost a light in a line battle is no more than a destroyed expendable cheapshot. And recon does not needs sheer strength in frontline; it just need to check the enemy and return alive.

[Greatclub]

If possible I try to make sure that my forces have a unit of fast strikers, preferably with accuracy mod weaponry. Dedicated scout hunters, basically

[Kit deSummersville]

Belgium simply didn't have enough of a military to stop a determined land invasion.  They were too small a country.

Then they should have made their country bigger. If the Dutch were able to figure that out, surely the Belgians could have....

[Elmoth]

The Dutch, an eternal bastion against the Nazi tide.... Oh, wait

[Kit deSummersville]

Greyson and Lori before they got other rides, and a few supporting characters. The light guard guys in the warrior trilogy and 'recon company' guys from malicious intent are the ones that immediately came to my mind.

Andrew Redburn, Phelan Kell, Justin Allard, Minobu Tetsuhara and Dan Allard.

[SCC]

  That's the point. You consider your Lights as expendable and trivialize their value. In campaign, my Light assets have greater value than my Heavies and Assaults, as they are my eyes on the bigger picture, and will determine where, when and how I destroy my opponent.

  Goading an opponent into committing an irrational action is as old as Light cavalry.

Finding traps like, mainly be triggering them, is a major reason of why scouts are used.

[Kovax]

The discussion on Light 'Mechs continues to be interesting, but some of the historical "facts" are hilariously wrong.

There was one isolated case of a bunker being taken by a single German soldier, not a routine situation at all, and the Germans lost quite a few highly trained troops in those operations, even though it was only a tiny fraction of the losses that the fortifications were intended to cause.  The French were counting on the Maginot Line to hold long enough for their moderately sizable army to mobilize and meet the invasion head-on, where the heavier French tanks would have demolished the lighter German machines (Lights fighting in a phone booth situation....sound familiar?).  From there, they anticipated another trench war.  The Germans relied on mobility and "speed" (the family of chemicals, as well as velocity) to advance far faster than the French were able to deal with, and better communications channels and more leeway to interpret orders allowed the Germans to adjust rapidly to changes in the situation, where the French had to wait for requests to go up and orders to come back down the chain of command.  French units were outmaneuvered, taken on piecemeal, and destroyed in detail, where a direct head-on confrontation would very likely have favored the French or at least put them on even terms.  The situation is exactly WHY real modern armies field small but very significant groups of lighter and faster forces, with a heavy emphasis on individual initiative and communication.  Light 'Mechs in BT are only useless (or nearly so) due to a heavily confined and artificial "last man standing" tabletop game situation, where finding the enemy is a given.

BTW - Germany was far from the only country using radios in 1939, and even a small country like Hungary fielded radios in its pitifully few armored vehicles as standard at that time.  The vaunted lack of radio communications in Soviet armored units was mainly due to the notorious unreliability of the radios, which were actually installed in all of their T-34 tanks, but rarely functional for long, to the point where usually all but the commander's radio had been cannibalized for parts to keep that single set working, and signal flags had to be used instead.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

French units were outmaneuvered, taken on piecemeal, and destroyed in detail, where a direct head-on confrontation would very likely have favored the French or at least put them on even terms.

To the point that the few times that French tanks managed to face German tanks head on, the results were largely disastrous for the Germans- Char B1 bis and Somua S35s were capable of slaughtering Panzer Is and Panzer IIs, and there's at least one confirmed instance of a B1 taking more than 140 direct hits from German guns, none of which penetrated, and the tank and its crew survived the battle.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The French were counting on the Maginot Line to hold long enough for their moderately sizable army to mobilize and meet the invasion head-on, where the heavier French tanks would have demolished the lighter German machines (Lights fighting in a phone booth situation....sound familiar?).  From there, they anticipated another trench war. 

  The French were still locked in WW1 doctrine. Despite the intel from the invasion of Poland, the French broke up their armor units and used them as infantry support, so you weren't going to have a tank battle as in Kursk. A well-placed, dug in French heavy tank might hold off the tiny MkII, and undergunned MkIII and MkIV Panzers but not for long. It would just be another bunker for artillery or Stukas to smash.

 

Light 'Mechs in BT are only useless (or nearly so) due to a heavily confined and artificial "last man standing" tabletop game situation, where finding the enemy is a given.

  True, that's just an artificiality of a game that reflects its beer and pizza robot arena origins, where fights and ranges were limited to a single, walled off map. I have been wargaming since the 1960s and when I first played BT the players could not explain why the ranges of the weapons were so anemic, when pre-WW1 could be fought at longer ranges, at least until the infantry got to bayonet charge range. Modern warfare battlefield maps could measure in tens of kilometers and use of combined arms a routine practice.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Anyway, what's the conclusion then? Light is useless on line battle(especially on small sized pitched combat) but it can be used for some roles that is not expect direct engagements in combat(at least against equal or stronger one) or can be the inferior but cheaper replacement of the other proper line units?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Anyway, what's the conclusion then?

  Light 'Mechs aren't popular because most people have no clue how to use them. If vehicles could replace Light 'Mechs then vehicles could replace 'Mechs of any weight...but they would still be vehicles.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No, it's that light mechs aren't popular because the way the game is played is intentionally not an accurate simulation of an actual military campaign and thus lights don't work as well in the metagame.

[Weirdo]

Anyway, what's the conclusion then?

There is no conclusion, and there never will be. No matter what is said in this thread, some folks will continue to like light mechs, some folks will continue to hate them, and some will continue to possess insufficient emotional investment to make a statement either way.

And every individual will have their own reasons.

And every individual will be right.

And wrong.