BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: Diplominator on 23 October 2015, 01:31:20

Title: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Diplominator on 23 October 2015, 01:31:20
Jupiter
100-ton Clan BattleMech (http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1725/jupiter-standard)
Source: Technical Readout 3075 (http://masterunitlist.info/Source/Details/189/technical-readout-3075)
Camo Specs Online Link (http://www.camospecs.com/MiniList.asp?Action=Detail&ID=981)

(https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mul-images/BattleMechs/Jupiter.jpg)
"Whether you are fighting Blakists or Hellions, obliterate your foes in style and comfort in the new 3075 Jupiter, with improved fire control, extra cup holders, and even more roll bars. CJF Factory Zone Four: Like a Roc. "

This week's topic is the Jupiter, a Dark Age design that's often associated with the Republic of the Sphere, but is actually produced by Clan Jade Falcon. It was popular with Alpha Galaxy, which used them against the Ice Hellion incursion and apparently brought Jupiters with them when they joined the nascent RAF. With almost everyone either eyeing the Republic greedily, or having to worry about the Falcons, it's a good design to be aware of.

Okay, lemme guess. It's a Clan 100-tonner, so I bet it has a bunch of armor and a 300XL and a bunch of guns.

More or less, yes. It's slow at 3/5, but that's not unusual for 100-tonners, and it actually mounts the full 307 points of armor permitted, accepting the inefficiency of the last half ton only getting three points of armor. However, the reason that it can tolerate such inefficiency is a feature unique to the Jupiter among all 100-ton designs: endo-steel internal structure with a 300XL. Now, there's a good reason why nothing else does that. Smaller designs wouldn't bat an eye at combining an XL with endo-steel, maybe even throwing ferro-fibrous armor on there, too. They've got crits and they want tons. The Jupiter has plenty of tons and the endo gives it more, but it needs crits.

I know it's not really my custom to get into the nitty-gritty construction details like this, but I think the endo thing is actually really important to the Jupiter's design! It has to cram sixty tons of guns, ammo, and heat sinks into a mere thirty-six crits, and accomplishing that while still ending up with a useful 'Mech is not a trivial task.

Well, how does it do that?

A large part of the Jupiter's utility comes from a pair of Clan ER PPCs. It's really pretty difficult for things to go too badly when you start with a pair of Clan ER PPCs. They're long-ranged, they do a lot of concentrated damage, and, most importantly for the Jupiter, they use up three tons per critical slot. Actually, that last part is a little misleading, because the seventeen double heat sinks the Jupiter mounts to deal with the PPC heat take up ten slots for only seven tons, but some sacrifices have to be made for a pair of Clan ER PPCs.

Next up is a battery of four Ultra AC-5s. Now, I generally detest AC-5s, and Ultras don't even get cool ammunition options, but I am okay with their presence here. The Jupiter represents as close to an ideal platform for them as I've ever seen. Their high tonnage requirement is less important than their small critical requirement. Their low heat generation is important because the engine heat sinks are already spoken for (and then some) and mounting more heat sinks is not feasible. Their tendency to jam is not even that big a concern, because heat issues keep them from being consistently double-fired anyway, so if one goes out another can just pick up the slack. Their long range works well with the rest of the arsenal, too. There really just isn't a better option for replacing them, and I find they give the Jupiter a pleasing bullet-hose aesthetic.

With its last nine tons and six critical slots, the Jupiter mounts a pair of LRM-15s and two tons of ammo. A mere eight shots per launcher seems worrisome at first glance, but in actual practice, the LRMs aren't used every turn. They are most useful as a stand-in for one of the PPCs once movement heat and Ultra-mode usage have pushed heat levels too high. The Jupiter usually can't afford to slow down, so having that swap available to free up some dissipation helps keep it running cool.

Are there variants that do it differently?

There's three of them. I prefer the original myself, but they have their charms.

Well, actually, the Jupiter 2 I just straight up despise. That's not necessarily a strike against it, but it irritates me. You see, the Jupiter 2 replaces the UAC-5s with a pair of UAC-10s, then uses the spare tonnage to add Artemis IV to the LRM racks and a trio of jump jets. If I'm being completely honest, the Jupiter 2 is probably the more dangerous design. The concentrated damage from the UACs and the PPCs will do a good job of battering things into powder, and it can still do a bit of critseeking with the LRMs. The jump jets are also nice, even if mobility is limited, because Falcon 'Mechs tend to be jump-capable and there's nifty things you can do with an entirely-jump capable force. That said, three things about the Jupiter 2 annoy me intensely. First, the heat dissipation is much less forgiving. Firing the PPCs and UACs on normal mode will put you at +2, more if you move, so after only a turn or two you have to think about dropping one of the PPCs for LRMs and/or Ultra double taps if you want to stay cool. The jump jets mean you can overheat and still maintain a modicum of mobility, but that screws up accuracy, too. Second, having to drop a PPC so often means you'll be using the LRMs more, and so the inclusion of Artemis IV over extra ammo is especially galling. Artemis is far less efficient on Clan designs than IS ones (since the launchers are so much lighter), and it has trouble being useful at all now that ECM is so common. The third thing is the smallest problem but the most annoying to me personally. In order to make all these changes, the Jupiter 2 had to ditch the lower arm and hand actuators. Actually, it only had to ditch the hands, but it drops both. Honestly, that is a good idea, so it can flip the arms to cover its rear, but it annoys me so, so much on an aesthetic level. Rather than rise to the challenge imposed by the insane use of endo-steel, the Jupiter 2 cheats and takes a shortcut. It is the Gary Oak of Clan assaults.

The Jupiter 3 is far less repugnant. Basically, it's the normal Jupiter, with the Pew Pew dial turned down and the Dakka Dakka dial turned up. Way up. The ER PPCs become ER medium lasers. The UAC-5s become UAC-10s, with hands, thank you very much. The LRM-15s become HAG-30s. It has less heat sinks, but still enough to double tap the Ultras with the HAGs and only build up movement heat. The lasers are a poor substitute for PPCs, but their presence is probably a comfort to the MechWarrior who knows he has about two minutes of ammunition. Probably not a lot of comfort, since after it runs dry the Jupiter 3 is outgunned by some ProtoMechs, but some comfort is better than none. Plus, during those two minutes, pretty much anything it points at is going to have a very bad time, up to forty damage in ten point hits and sixty damage in five point hits. Flying units in particular should stay far away from the Jupiter 3, because that is a lot of HAG.

The Jupiter 4 is simultaneously less and more interesting than its kin. It's less interesting because it's got a 400XL, and 4/6 100-tonners use endo-steel internal structure all the time, so it loses that uniqueness. More interesting, though, because at 4/6 it works a lot better with the more mobile Falcon units. The slower Jupiters are nice and all, but they are distinctly an assault unit, suitable for defending a fixed position or smashing one. Jupiter 4s can be deployed with a great deal more flexibility, since there's a lot more Falcon designs around that speed. Still not the fastest thing in their arsenal, but good. Oh, right, and guns-wise it's just like a standard Jupiter except the all the UACs are replaced with a Streak SRM-4 rack in each arm, the LRMs get Artemis IV (meh) and two more tons of ammo (woo!), and it has four more heat sinks so it can fire everything at once with minimal heat concerns. So, it suffers a bit from the bane of all 4/6 100-tonners, which is that it can't mount quite as much firepower as a smaller design with a more efficient engine, but it has way more armor than those designs, and it uses its tonnage on some of the most efficient weapons in the game.

Some pretty nice options there. How should I go about using them?

How you use a Jupiter depends a bit on who "you" is. The Falcons and the RAF have different options for complementing and covering them, but by and large Jupiters need the same things: fast units to run down extreme-ranged harassers, units with accuracy bonuses that can watch its back against backstabbers, and stuff that handles conventional units. The Jupiter is extremely long-ranged, with its shortest ranged guns going out to 21 hexes, but it can still be outranged by stuff with AC-2s, light gauss rifles, or Clan ER large lasers. The first two are less of an issue since they'll likely run out of ammo before they seriously harm a Jupiter, but the third is a bigger problem than usual because Jupiters are so slow. It'll still take a while, and that sort of tactic is really unfun if it's all you're doing, but it's still a concern for an unsupported Jupiter. Backstabbers are a problem because most of the Jupiter's guns are torso-mounted, so it can only hit a target directly behind it with a pair of UAC-5s, usually not enough to discourage much. It's got 10/16/10 rear armor, which is superb for rear armor, but it still won't last long. Conventional infantry might be the biggest problem since the Jupiter is almost entirely helpless against them and is really not much faster than them. Battle armor is less easier to kill because PPCs and five point clusters tend to kill them efficiently, but the faster suits will be able to catch and swarm a Jupiter. The Jupiter's ability to pump out raw damage will probably let it do fine against vehicles, but it doesn't have the kind of critseeking ability that is so good against them. It is first and foremost an anti-'Mech fighter.

The RAF has a few nice complements to the Jupiter. There are very few things that a Jackalope cannot run down, and while its firepower isn't the best, it's enough to annoy an ERLL harasser, especially if there's multiple Jackalopes (and why would you ever have just one?) The new BLD-XR Blades might also be helpful with precision rounds. Two point hits aren't much, but most backstabby designs rely on not being hit more than armor, so hitting them consistently with anything will worry them. Oh, and if you have one of those new Black Knights with the plasma rifles handy, it can help against all sorts of conventional threats, and the Accurate Weapon quirk on its PPC will help against backstabbers. BE701 Joust tanks will also be incredibly handy, capable of shooting ERLLs back at harassers and massacring infantry in droves with its LMGs.

For the Falcons, well, I have one word: Chalchiuhtotolin.

Gesundheit.

I actually do have a cold, but, no, the support vehicle! Chalchiuhtotolins are pretty much the perfect complement to the Jupiter. They can't quite match the range of an ERLL, but they're fast enough to push forward into large pulse laser range, and harassers won't like the pulse bonus. For that matter, neither will backstabbers, which also hate the Streak SRMs. Streak SRMs also help against vehicles, and the rest of its arsenal of antipersonnel weapons can kill off conventional infantry or set their cover on fire. If you're feeling especially profligate, you can even use the new Chalchiuhtotolin (XL), which is even better at almost all of that. As for other 'Mechs, Eyries and Gyrfalcons make nice reaction forces, and they appreciate the Jupiter's ability to threaten things from a great distance. The "damned if you do" to a flanking Eyrie's "damned if you don't."

I am a brave MechWarrior of...pretty much anywhere besides the Falcons and the Republic. Maybe the Federated Suns too. How do I make it explode?

There really isn't a magic solution. I mean, obviously sniping with ERLLs, dropping infantry on its head, backstabbing...the stuff I just warned you about. Problem is, those tactics tend to be easy to counter, excruciatingly boring, or both. Beyond that, though...there's not a lot. You pretty much just need to shoot it a lot, and that means you're going to get hurt. I'd be particularly cautious with a RAF Jupiter, because they don't make them, so the ones they have are probably in the hands of their best people. A great MechWarrior in a Jupiter makes for a really big danger zone. A Falcon Jupiter is still a problem, but it's more likely to have MechWarrior Ted at the controls, as opposed to, like, Knight Errant Odysseus Pendragon. Heat weapons might help, but they tend to run cool so it's unlikely you'll cause anything really catastrophic, and it can just drop a PPC next round. TAG and homing Arrow IV are probably the best bet, since it's not hard to predict where it will be. Oh, and if you're fighting the Jupiter 3, massed SRMs might crit one of those nice big HAG capacitors, and it has a bit of a minimum range. Of course, it is a 100-tonner, with extremely scary melee attacks, so point-blank range is not necessarily the safest place to be.

Alright, well, that sounds like a huge problem, then. Anything else?

I should probably mention that you'd probably be justified in giving it the Improved Sensors quirk, since fluff-wise it has a nifty retractable sensor vane thing up top. So, it's decent command 'Mech as well. Beyond that...no, I think that's it for the Jupiter. Slow, solid, and a ludicrous tonnage of gunnage. Small wonder the Falcons started using more BattleMechs in front-line units.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Grey on 23 October 2015, 02:37:14
Nice article. Like you I have issue with Class 5 ACs, but you're right in that they work with the design and with the aesthetic. Personally I wouldn't use them at full speed because they're too useful as on the spot weapons during cool downs.

I haven't used the variants yet, the 2 is more my style but it's very much a blunt instrument compared to the others.

And am I the only one who finds it amusing that for at least half a century Jupiters have been facing down Zeuses?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: marauder648 on 23 October 2015, 03:23:48
A very educational, entertaining and fun review to read of a Mech I knew little about beyond the TRO, having never used one, great stuff :) I assume the Jupiter is still in production in 3145 and is still used despite the spread of the IMMA BURD!!!! look of the Falcons newest machines.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Kidd on 23 October 2015, 05:49:15
Great article as always. This is the first time I've heard of the 4/6 variant and I really want to like it, but... yuck. Does not taste like a Jupiter at all. I really love the symmetrical PPC & Dakka Dakka layouts.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Leozack on 23 October 2015, 06:03:53
I am rather fond of the original Jupiter. Although I swither about assaults with XL engines I think that the Jupiter sits in a nice niche where it is slow enough, with sufficiently less threatening weapons compared to other things in it's weight class and heavily armoured enough to make you want to ignore it a little whilst you concentrate on more pressing threats - but enough firepower that you can't ignore it too long because otherwise it will slowly whittle you down to support said pressing threats.

It feels much more like a team-player than a lot of older Clan designs. Less "Rawr! I fights you all!" more "my team beats up your team".

I don't have any experience with the variants, but the HAG-toter appeals to my sense of the absurd. (I don't think it is good, but I like it in a "the Falcon scientist cast do strange things in their lunchhour kind of way).

I hadn't noticed the "Gods of Lightning clash" thing before though - that is quite fun.

Karl
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 23 October 2015, 09:40:02
When I found out my in-game alter-ego was going to be written in as a notable pilot, I was stoked. When i found out it was as the driver of a mighty Jupiter, I was REALLY happy. And when I found out it was a Jupiter 3, I was... totally confused, because I didn't know there was a '3'. What's the deal here?

First and foremost: The bit in the book about a full Star of Protos being wiped out? Yeah- no. Unless you're facing a Star of Harpies, you're not winning that fight. It's a matter of ammo- you just don't have enough of it, and when you run out those two lasers just aren't enough- well, yeah, I mean, they are, but you're not able to keep up with the Protos anyway, so you find that they're now fighting on their terms. (I may have tried repeatedly to run this fight.)

But... two to four ten-point hammerblows from the cannons, ridiculous amounts of peppering from the HAGs... this thing tears up targets faster than you'd think. I've stripped the armor clean off of an Orion in one salvo with this thing (no easy feat), leaving it miserable for follow-up attacks from whatever came along with the Jupiter (Interestingly, the Commando IIC, as rare as it is, makes for a pretty handy partner). It's far deadlier than it looks at a glance, and I've become a huge fan of it, even beyond the original model- which I also adore.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: GreekFire on 23 October 2015, 10:51:02
Great write-up, gotta agree with you on the Jupiter 2. Always felt like a cop-out to me.

The only thing I disagree with is...
Quote
Jupiter's ability to pump out raw damage will probably let it do fine against vehicles, but it doesn't have the kind of critseeking ability that is so good against them. It is first and foremost an anti-'Mech fighter.

You can shoot one ERPPC, both LRM/15s and all four UAC/5s while walking to remain heat neutral...and that gives you up to 15 clusters to smack a vehicle with. Sure, that'll usually be brought down to about 8-10 clusters because of your rolls, but still. You've got a pretty good chance at getting a few solid crits in with that kind of firepower.

But ultimately, I find that the Jupiter works best as a bully. Point it at something lighter, and let it melt the armor away. If there are any Hellions still around, you can bet they have a dark shrine dedicated to Jupiter(s) hidden somewhere in their footlocker.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Stormlion1 on 23 October 2015, 10:56:38
I've never used one but I have fought against them and I have to say that the experience is like fighting a Zombie. Tough to kill unless you shoot it a lot. Only real issue I ever had though was the mini is too damn big!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: wantec on 23 October 2015, 11:25:11
When I found out my in-game alter-ego was going to be written in as a notable pilot, I was stoked. When i found out it was as the driver of a mighty Jupiter, I was REALLY happy. And when I found out it was a Jupiter 3, I was... totally confused, because I didn't know there was a '3'. What's the deal here?

First and foremost: The bit in the book about a full Star of Protos being wiped out? Yeah- no. Unless you're facing a Star of Harpies, you're not winning that fight. It's a matter of ammo- you just don't have enough of it, and when you run out those two lasers just aren't enough- well, yeah, I mean, they are, but you're not able to keep up with the Protos anyway, so you find that they're now fighting on their terms. (I may have tried repeatedly to run this fight.)

But... two to four ten-point hammerblows from the cannons, ridiculous amounts of peppering from the HAGs... this thing tears up targets faster than you'd think. I've stripped the armor clean off of an Orion in one salvo with this thing (no easy feat), leaving it miserable for follow-up attacks from whatever came along with the Jupiter (Interestingly, the Commando IIC, as rare as it is, makes for a pretty handy partner). It's far deadlier than it looks at a glance, and I've become a huge fan of it, even beyond the original model- which I also adore.
I'm a little surprised it took you this many posts to respond. ;)

Just curious, where did you see that Brian Pryde pilots a Jupiter 3, cause my copy of TRO3075 doesn't say which version he pilots. And if it was the original or even the 2, he could have definitely taken down the star of Protos.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 23 October 2015, 12:12:11
I'd probably like the Jupiter more if the mini wasn't so terrible.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 23 October 2015, 12:38:12
i find interesting is that in many ways, the main and 2 versions are basically heavier clantech Maulers. and pretty much fight the same way. makes me wonder if maybe the jade Falcons had that Kurita mech in mind when designing the Jupiter.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: GreekFire on 23 October 2015, 14:33:58
i find interesting is that in many ways, the main and 2 versions are basically heavier clantech Maulers. and pretty much fight the same way. makes me wonder if maybe the jade Falcons had that Kurita mech in mind when designing the Jupiter.

And each Jupiter is basically two Zeus's glued together at the hip...talk about terrifying for those poor Lyrans.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Khymerion on 23 October 2015, 14:35:47
This mech is one of the last of my MWDA miniatures I still am proud to own (despite having no abilities on it's dials, yay Raiders!) and I love it to death.  Finally getting to have stats for it to use in traditional table top made me pick up a book I wasn't particularly excited for but I have to say I do enjoy driving this on the rare occasion I let myself have the chance to put a clan assault miniature on the field.

It was a great write up to be sure.   Thank you.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 23 October 2015, 14:41:41
I'm a little surprised it took you this many posts to respond. ;)

Just curious, where did you see that Brian Pryde pilots a Jupiter 3, cause my copy of TRO3075 doesn't say which version he pilots. And if it was the original or even the 2, he could have definitely taken down the star of Protos.

Hey, I have a life outside the forums! (Actually it's been increasingly outside the forums, which is even better)

As for the Jupe 3 info... Trust me. It's not in the book, but it's a 3.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Diplominator on 23 October 2015, 15:08:21
Hey, I have a life outside the forums! (Actually it's been increasingly outside the forums, which is even better)

As for the Jupe 3 info... Trust me. It's not in the book, but it's a 3.

Makes sense. Why would they give you something with Ultras?

The only thing I disagree with is...
You can shoot one ERPPC, both LRM/15s and all four UAC/5s while walking to remain heat neutral...and that gives you up to 15 clusters to smack a vehicle with. Sure, that'll usually be brought down to about 8-10 clusters because of your rolls, but still. You've got a pretty good chance at getting a few solid crits in with that kind of firepower.

Y'know, you're probably right. I was thinking about how it doesn't have the SRMs or LB-Xs to generate a lot of hits, but it does have a bunch of weapons that generate a few hits each, so it probably works out fine.

And am I the only one who finds it amusing that for at least half a century Jupiters have been facing down Zeuses?

Excellent point! It might be telling that the latest Zeus is really fast and mounts an LGR.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Orin J. on 23 October 2015, 15:38:20
while I ain't normally a big fan of 'mechs designed for the clix game, the Jupiter manages to work very well with the odd design style. the random bit of rollbar and the odd sun-symbol thing don't go to far in being pointless accessories for the most part, and don't detract from the basic elements of the 'mech and the cockpit, while a bit odd, is perfectly servicable. the weapons themselves are reasonably placed and well-integrated with the design, too. truly, the falcon's interpretation of the Mauler is a fine 'mech.

what is that thing sitting on top of it though, a satellite uplink dish? i can understand that, but the time this came out, they were probably looking to improve their overall communications....
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Deadborder on 23 October 2015, 16:24:42
I have one of the Joyride Studios Jupiter action figures. Not only does it look pretty damned awesome, but it also weighs a ton.

Love that 'Mech
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Empyrus on 23 October 2015, 16:42:14
I was just trying to approximate the Jupiter with introductory IS tech and...

truly, the falcon's interpretation of the Mauler is a fine 'mech.

Well, yeah, Orin J. and glitterboy said it before me.

The Jupiter is effectively Mauler IIC. The biggest change are the swapped locations of the direct fire weapons.

I didn't think terribly much of the Jupiter before this realization. Now? I think i like it after all. Good amount of dakka.

EDIT The miniature looks kind of meh, if not bad. Too bad.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Deadborder on 23 October 2015, 16:55:45
I had a star of Alpha Galaxy 'Mechs that I ran in a Jihad-era MegaMek campaign. The Jupiter was paired with, of all things, a Griffin IIC 8. The Griff would use it's IJJs to land in the middle of WoB C3i formations and then try to jam as many of them as possible while maintaining a high TMM. Then the Jupiter would pummel them from long range while slowly closing. And it mostly worked too.

All up, I think the Standard is my favourite version. It's worked well for me numerous times, and I find that it meshes will with the general Falcon preference for longer ranged weapons. Okay, so it's not the fastest thing in the world, but the long range guns make up for it rather well.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Nav_Alpha on 23 October 2015, 17:10:05
Well, I've found my next PC... Knight Errant Odysseus Pendragon And his Jupiter!
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Avitue on 23 October 2015, 23:30:44
Loving the Jupiter, mind you, most of my experience with it came from Megamek servers.

The ones in Republic hands are definitely more scary sounding, because the only thing worse than a Jupiter is a Jupiter in the hands of someone who doesn't have scruples in how to use one.  >:D

Gotta love the nice, clear-cut fire patterns too... 2 ERPPC at long range, low to-hit shots, switch to 2 ERPPC + 4 UAC/5 at single-tap once you get better numbers, then when you get good shots, unload with ERPPC + 2 LRM 15 + 4 UAC/5 on double-tap for major pain.

The 3 might not have a headcapper, but then again... with 100 potential damage a turn it doesn't exactly NEED one either. That thing FLAYS enemy mechs apart with ease as it is.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Natasha Kerensky on 24 October 2015, 10:32:42
The Ultra-5s on the original Jupiter remind me of the Dire Wolf Prime.  Far from an exact copy, but the latter maybe inspired the former.

The loadout on the original Jupiter is very well put together -- a flexible set of firing options that waste little and provide varied but powerful mixes of hole-punching/crit-seeking and direct/indirect fire for almost any opponent -- on top of a 3/5, 100-tonner's usual 19+ tons of armor goodness.  My only critique would be the lack of accurate weapons to offset the higher gunnery skills of freeborns and solahma and to defend against fast-movers.  But the loadouts on more canon designs should follow the Jupiter's example than not.  Although the Falcons are known for their lighter, jumpier designs, between the Turkina and Jupiter, they do the heavy assault thing well.

I'm not as big a fan of the variants, but I can understand the desire for more hole-punching at the expense of range on the 2 (although the lack of pulse, LB-X cluster, or a TC is more acutely felt with the 2's jump jets), and the desire for more sandpapering at the expense of hold-punching on the 3.   The 4 is the weakest.  With only the firepower of a Clan heavy cav platform but not the speed, it gives up too much and needs a more focused weapons loadout as most inefficient 4/6, 100-tonners do.

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: chanman on 24 October 2015, 10:54:07
I can't help but think that given the DA setting (and in general, and also Weirdo), LB-5x's would have been far more handy on the original Jupiter
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Kojak on 24 October 2015, 14:36:54
I can't help but think that given the DA setting (and in general, and also Weirdo), LB-5x's would have been far more handy on the original Jupiter

Sure, but at that point you've got a near-carbon-copy of the Turkina Prime. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you, but I can see why, for the sake of OOC unit variety, they went the other way. Also, LB-5Xs are four crits rather than three like the UAC/5, so they'd have had to remove the arm actuators to fit them, which would have clashed with the art.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: UnLimiTeD on 24 October 2015, 16:29:17
Excellent article, as always.
Also a nifty design.
I didn't know there were so few Endo/XL mechs, though it does make sense.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 October 2015, 16:45:23
There are plenty of XL/ Endo designs.  Just few that move 3/5.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: SteelRaven on 24 October 2015, 18:18:44
Jupiter is a damn good mech with it's rang brackets, not to mention decent firepower. Love the fact it cares 4X Ultra AC/5s, shows the Jade Falcons love for Dakka. The Jupiter 4 is more to my liking; a little more speed and some close range firepower.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Hellraiser on 24 October 2015, 21:09:34
Never been a fan, its a beast, but I just don't care for it when I have a D-Wolf or StoneRhino that I can use.

I did make a variant on the 2 model that I like a bit that swaps around the non-missile systems.
RA-Gauss, LA-HAG20, Torso-LPL's & doubles the LRM ammo.  Only 14 DHS & adds ECM.  A similar but different feel.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 24 October 2015, 21:18:08
I liked the original and second variant, but original is my favorite.  It's tough, no nonsense machine marching in to make everyone's life miserable.

Originally, this thing was part of the original clicky MWDA games, being used by Knight of the Sphere.  When i originally saw it in the game, i was little upset that WizKids wasn't putting out OmniMechs because their game mechanics didn't support them.  Thus alot of the Clan Mechs showing up in the original waves of the game were non-OmniMechs.   

That's said, Jupiter works very well in our game.  MWDA Record Sheet Book I featured the first two variants for the "then called" Classic Battletech game.   I'm curious if the Falcons continue to produced the 'Mech by 3150.

Thanks for the write up, Diplominator.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 October 2015, 21:23:58
I believe that it was actually the third or fourth expansion before we saw a proper omnimech added to the Dark Age game.  Prior to that, we had second-line versions of omnis like the Black Hawk, Koshi, and Mad Cat Mk II.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 24 October 2015, 22:49:26
I believe that it was actually the third or fourth expansion before we saw a proper omnimech added to the Dark Age game.  Prior to that, we had second-line versions of omnis like the Black Hawk, Koshi, and Mad Cat Mk II.

well, partly depends on whether you count the Centurion Omni.
and in the first set you had the Cougar, and the 2nd expansion had an Ullers, Cougars, Vultures (actually Vulture III), and Thor.

they just were all on the rare end of the spectrum, till the 3rd expansion introduced non-named character versions.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Weirdo on 24 October 2015, 22:59:58
I can't help but think that given the DA setting (and in general, and also Weirdo), LB-5x's would have been far more handy on the original Jupiter

...oi! >:(

But yeah, something like that would probably mess me up but good. #P
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Diplominator on 24 October 2015, 23:01:58
Actually, if we're talking about the MWDA Jupiter, I have a question. I found a few images of minis with four-tube missile racks in the arms instead of the ACs. Is that likely the inspiration for the Jupiter 4? I ask because those didn't appear to be of Falcon origin (actually, I don't even know if the Falcon origin was established until TRO 3075), and it would be interesting if the Jupiter 4 had distribution beyond the Falcons, since the other variants do not, per the MUL.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 24 October 2015, 23:31:56
well, partly depends on whether you count the Centurion Omni.
and in the first set you had the Cougar, and the 2nd expansion had an Ullers, Cougars, Vultures (actually Vulture III), and Thor.

they just were all on the rare end of the spectrum, till the 3rd expansion introduced non-named character versions.

I believe you're confusing Dark Age and Age of Destruction.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 25 October 2015, 00:12:20
I believe you're confusing Dark Age and Age of Destruction.
nope. Dark age had Collin Yukinov (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=D157), in a Cougar, a rare figure

Fire for Effect had:
Malisa Nova Cat (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F126) in an Uller
Shin Wolf  (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F086) in an Uller
Kym Nova Cat (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F085) In a Cougar
Antonia Chinn (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F092) in a Thor
Gary Metcalf (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F132) in a Thor
Alice Vander (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F093) in a Vulture
Naomi Katina (http://www.warrenborn.com/Unit.php?ID=F133) in a Vulture

however there were all named characters and thus uncommons and rares in terms of the odds of being pulled from an expansion pack.

Death From Above gave us common rarity Ullers for 4 different factions, and common rarity Cougars for 4 different factions

Liao incursion gave us common rarity Uller's for three more factions, and a named Uller Pilot

Counter Assult gave us no new Omni's

Falcons prey gave us named pilots for 2 Thors, 2 Vultures, and 2 Templars
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 25 October 2015, 01:00:53
I stand corrected.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: chanman on 25 October 2015, 01:05:18
...oi! >:(

But yeah, something like that would probably mess me up but good. #P

Always thinkin' o ya and your variation of death from above  :D
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: cavingjan on 25 October 2015, 09:31:54
I can't help but think that given the DA setting (and in general, and also Weirdo), LB-5x's would have been far more handy on the original Jupiter
No room for the LBXs. You need to come up with 4 more crits.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Deadborder on 25 October 2015, 10:35:52
Actually, if we're talking about the MWDA Jupiter, I have a question. I found a few images of minis with four-tube missile racks in the arms instead of the ACs. Is that likely the inspiration for the Jupiter 4? I ask because those didn't appear to be of Falcon origin (actually, I don't even know if the Falcon origin was established until TRO 3075), and it would be interesting if the Jupiter 4 had distribution beyond the Falcons, since the other variants do not, per the MUL.

That they are. Those are ones that originated from the RAF via the Falcons
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: chanman on 25 October 2015, 12:15:06
No room for the LBXs. You need to come up with 4 more crits.

Time to rip some actuators out, I suppose
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 25 October 2015, 13:37:28
Never been a fan, its a beast, but I just don't care for it when I have a D-Wolf or StoneRhino that I can use.

You just hit the nail on the head. The Falcons don't build either design, and certainly post-Jihad/WoR likely have very few of either around to use.

Turkinas, sure, but that's more of a frontline design. There's the Battlemaster-C, during the time the Falcons control the factory, so probably not a whole ton of them. Banes of assorted flavors, but not post-WoR (I don't believe it was produced in the OZ). And the Onager, even from its earliest days, was obviously intended to be a testbed for something else later (the Shrike).

So... yeah, comparing it to designs the Falcons don't use might be a fair comparison, but it only puts an exclamation point on the Jupiter's existence- if you don't build Stone Rhinos, you build Jupiters to do the job.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 25 October 2015, 13:45:44
Actually, if we're talking about the MWDA Jupiter, I have a question. I found a few images of minis with four-tube missile racks in the arms instead of the ACs. Is that likely the inspiration for the Jupiter 4? I ask because those didn't appear to be of Falcon origin (actually, I don't even know if the Falcon origin was established until TRO 3075), and it would be interesting if the Jupiter 4 had distribution beyond the Falcons, since the other variants do not, per the MUL.
This dossier for Leala Banach (http://cf.sarna.net/docs/mwda_dossiers/liao_incursion_12.pdf), which pre-dates the Jupiter 4 and it never had a variant name. It came out during the Liao Incursion.  I believe this is what ultimately became the Fourth Variant.   Alot of the MWDA that were slated to during the Jihad came out TRO: 3075 and later 3085.  This included oops we forgot about that one moments, that only appear in print in Record Sheets: 3075 Unabridged.  The Record Sheet for the Jupiter 4 showed up in RS: 3145 New Tech, New Upgrades for Record Sheets.

It should be noted that Streak 4 packing Jupiter started to appear (dossier wise) in Liao Incursion release.

Edit: fixing link. Don't know why that happened. :(   
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Hellraiser on 25 October 2015, 22:35:13
Banes of assorted flavors, but not post-WoR (I don't believe it was produced in the OZ).
I think my issue is they did Build Banes when they designed the Jupiter.  And really, its the same Chassis w/ endo & some hands added.  So why design it at all?    I know, I know, Clicky Tech. 
Its really that 3068 date that gets me.  Seems like it should have been a later intro date.



Originally, this thing was part of the original clicky MWDA games, being used by Knight of the Sphere.
Actually, IIRC, the 1st Jupiter was being piloting by a Dragon's Fury pilot.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: wantec on 26 October 2015, 07:09:48
I think my issue is they did Build Banes when they designed the Jupiter.  And really, its the same Chassis w/ endo & some hands added.  So why design it at all?    I know, I know, Clicky Tech. 
Its really that 3068 date that gets me.  Seems like it should have been a later intro date.


Actually, IIRC, the 1st Jupiter was being piloting by a Dragon's Fury pilot.
Nope, the first Jupiter piece was 'One Eyed' Jack Farrell, a Banson's Raiders piece that was a special piece (not in boosters or prize support). I think it was a mail-in for a magazine? Or did it come with MechAssault? I think the MA figure was the Merc Cougar.

And Wrangler was talking about the second novel, A Call to Arms, where a Republic Knight shows up in a Jupiter painted like the planet (even with the big red eye on the torso), that the main character eventually takes over piloting. But that wasn't even the first appearance in a novel, a Jupiter showed up in the first novel, but it didn't play a big role and it wasn't piloted by either of the Knights so it tends to get forgotten.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 26 October 2015, 09:03:02
Actually, IIRC, the 1st Jupiter was being piloting by a Dragon's Fury pilot.

I was talking about first Streak-4 variant actually.  Its Kool! I won't have known which ones of the MWDA units was first dossier to appear first, though I think wantec is right that's its One-Eye Jack who's first pilot, but in dossier form.  Heck he shows up in Proving Ground Series novels.

I think my favorite appearance of the Jupiter was when it REALLY showed up in-fiction for the first time, A Call to Arms by Loren Coleman.  I like how the Errant Knight of the Sphere's Jupiter had a Great Spot of the planet painted on his machine. :)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 26 October 2015, 10:18:58
Nope, the first Jupiter piece was 'One Eyed' Jack Farrell, a Banson's Raiders piece that was a special piece (not in boosters or prize support). I think it was a mail-in for a magazine? Or did it come with MechAssault? I think the MA figure was the Merc Cougar.

And Wrangler was talking about the second novel, A Call to Arms, where a Republic Knight shows up in a Jupiter painted like the planet (even with the big red eye on the torso), that the main character eventually takes over piloting. But that wasn't even the first appearance in a novel, a Jupiter showed up in the first novel, but it didn't play a big role and it wasn't piloted by either of the Knights so it tends to get forgotten.

Yeah, it took me forever to hunt down Farrel's Mech (and never got to use it once I did! :( ), because I didn't have that magazine. I got my Cougar from Mechassault though (and it wasn't a bad one to use off and on, at least early on)

I think my issue is they did Build Banes when they designed the Jupiter.  And really, its the same Chassis w/ endo & some hands added.  So why design it at all?    I know, I know, Clicky Tech. 
Its really that 3068 date that gets me.  Seems like it should have been a later intro date.


Actually, IIRC, the 1st Jupiter was being piloting by a Dragon's Fury pilot.

Something to consider though is what Bane was being built. The Bane-4, definitely, but a very different beast than the Jupiter's layout (in fact they make excellent teammates). But the previous models, based on the unseen artwork, may very well have been out of production by the time the Jupiter came along- which, in turn, might explain the Jupiter's being designed to begin with.

That's mere guesswork, I admit, but I honestly don't know if the previous Bane models were still being produced by the time the Jupiter, or even the Bane-4, were built.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: wantec on 26 October 2015, 10:36:37
Yeah, it took me forever to hunt down Farrel's Mech (and never got to use it once I did! :( ), because I didn't have that magazine. I got my Cougar from Mechassault though (and it wasn't a bad one to use off and on, at least early on)

Something to consider though is what Bane was being built. The Bane-4, definitely, but a very different beast than the Jupiter's layout (in fact they make excellent teammates). But the previous models, based on the unseen artwork, may very well have been out of production by the time the Jupiter came along- which, in turn, might explain the Jupiter's being designed to begin with.

That's mere guesswork, I admit, but I honestly don't know if the previous Bane models were still being produced by the time the Jupiter, or even the Bane-4, were built.
I'm pretty sure I tracked down that single edition of that magazine just for the mail-in. I don't usually do magazine subscriptions so that must have been how I got it.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: pensiveswetness on 26 October 2015, 11:18:24
The Ultra-5s on the original Jupiter remind me of the Dire Wolf Prime.  Far from an exact copy, but the latter maybe inspired the former.

The loadout on the original Jupiter is very well put together -- a flexible set of firing options that waste little and provide varied but powerful mixes of hole-punching/crit-seeking and direct/indirect fire for almost any opponent -- on top of a 3/5, 100-tonner's usual 19+ tons of armor goodness.  My only critique would be the lack of accurate weapons to offset the higher gunnery skills of freeborns and solahma and to defend against fast-movers.  But the loadouts on more canon designs should follow the Jupiter's example than not.  Although the Falcons are known for their lighter, jumpier designs, between the Turkina and Jupiter, they do the heavy assault thing well.

I'm not as big a fan of the variants, but I can understand the desire for more hole-punching at the expense of range on the 2 (although the lack of pulse, LB-X cluster, or a TC is more acutely felt with the 2's jump jets), and the desire for more sandpapering at the expense of hold-punching on the 3.   The 4 is the weakest.  With only the firepower of a Clan heavy cav platform but not the speed, it gives up too much and needs a more focused weapons loadout as most inefficient 4/6, 100-tonners do.

and if the TO rules are allowed, those ERPPC's dial'ed down to 12 or less each means you can add 1 or 2 LRM's to the mix. I'd rather do as much Dakka & EEEEEEE-Swoosh as possible just to make myself as empty as possible once those Chance For Crits start occuring. Have yet to use one in battle but i'm very interested in doing so...
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 26 October 2015, 11:27:36
I'm pretty sure I tracked down that single edition of that magazine just for the mail-in. I don't usually do magazine subscriptions so that must have been how I got it.

Ebay for me. Took forever, cost more than I'm happy to admit, and it was right after the Gaithersburg store closed, so ol' Jack never once fired a shot in anger. Poop. (Side note though, on the Jupiter in MWDA, the Dragon's Fury one was one of my first two uniques, along with the Swordsworn Panther- needless to say, I was impressed from day one with that sculpt. ;) )
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: SteelRaven on 26 October 2015, 12:21:18
I remember the Dragons Fury Thor and Highlanders Vulture showed up very early but happen to be two or the rarest minis 
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 26 October 2015, 13:00:11
I remember the Dragons Fury Thor and Highlanders Vulture showed up very early but happen to be two or the rarest minis

I'll back the Vulture, for sure. That Thor though? I've got three of them- one still guards my DVD shelf even now, along with a lunatic's Shrike. ;)

But. Yeah, Jupiters. I've tried tinkering a bit with the 2, tried dropping down to ER large lasers in place of the PPCs to gain the weight for Ultra-20s. Don't do it- it's like the old Far Side cartoon of a young 'god' creating a chicken. It blows up in your face pretty spectacularly- use a Bane 4 and don't be an ass like me. ;)
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 October 2015, 15:46:04
Thanks for the read, I have never used one or really seen one in action but I really appreciate the break down of the UAC/5s.  It also makes me wonder about what weapons they were producing in the JFOZ when the Reavings started.

As far as the fight JHB references, I believe its mentioned in Operation Icestorm I.  I know they cover Hellion Khan Montrose running from Brian Pryde to be covered by the other Hellions after she started losing.  I mean really, how does a Hellion win that fight?  Even if you say he is JUST a Clan Veteran and she is a Elite MechWarrior, the mech difference will negate a lot of that and he has just as much range as she could bring.

I do wonder about how they spread, the farthest from the Falcons one got that I am aware was Maria something of the Oriente.  She lost her Jupiter and life on Kwamshu during the Republic's false flag operation- which did not make the mech too impressive.  Anyone ever try replaying that fight?
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 26 October 2015, 15:54:21
What, Kwamshu? I'd love to- I actually wrote a scenario a long time ago that, with a little re-writing, would work perfectly there.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 October 2015, 15:58:27
Well, it was not a complicated fight . . . the Jupiter was the 1, piloted by a Oriente officer (captain?) of probably veteran status.  Against I think Knight Erbe in his stock Shockwave supported by a Fiedelis VTOL (upgraded for a bigger punch, maybe a HML rather than a ERML), APC and BA.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Hellraiser on 27 October 2015, 23:33:25
Nope, the first Jupiter piece was 'One Eyed' Jack Farrell, a Banson's Raiders piece that was a special piece (not in boosters or prize support). I think it was a mail-in for a magazine? Or did it come with MechAssault? I think the MA figure was the Merc Cougar.

And Wrangler was talking about the second novel, A Call to Arms, where a Republic Knight shows up in a Jupiter painted like the planet (even with the big red eye on the torso), that the main character eventually takes over piloting. But that wasn't even the first appearance in a novel, a Jupiter showed up in the first novel, but it didn't play a big role and it wasn't piloted by either of the Knights so it tends to get forgotten.

Ok, I was refering to the 1st set of figures that everyone could get.  Dark Age.
http://www.knight-ware.com/cmg/mechwarrior/darkage/116.html
I forgot about the mail ins or the novels.  Probably because I didn't really read the novels much & because the 1 time I did a mail order for the original Janella Lakewood/RotS mail order for 2 of the Tundra Wolves & those bastards cashed my $10 check & never sent me the 2 figures.   >:(  Now I'm pissed off all over again 12 years later remembering that!  >:(   /grumble grumble.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 26 December 2019, 22:05:18
Well, now the Jupiter 3 is available, and unlike the original mini it actually fits together and is nice.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: SteelRaven on 27 December 2019, 01:22:38
Found a pic at Aries Minis, I do appreciate that it looks more hawkish (fitting for a Falcon Mech)

Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 27 December 2019, 02:17:31
The changed sensor/antenna array on the head threw me off, though.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 27 December 2019, 15:56:05
I just be happy they fix Jupiter Standard/Jupiter 2 mini so it wasnt bear fix. Originally mini came out oversized and had flaws.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 05 January 2020, 17:12:04
I just be happy they fix Jupiter Standard/Jupiter 2 mini so it wasnt bear fix. Originally mini came out oversized and had flaws.

Want to improve one enormously? Drop the original legs for Tundra Wolf replacements. Same sculpt on the original DA minis for the legs (like the Thor/Loki), but the T-Wolf's legs turned out much better- it makes a huge difference. The missiles are still kind of a mess, but the leg swap helps a ton.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 05 January 2020, 18:14:09
Want to improve one enormously? Drop the original legs for Tundra Wolf replacements. Same sculpt on the original DA minis for the legs (like the Thor/Loki), but the T-Wolf's legs turned out much better- it makes a huge difference. The missiles are still kind of a mess, but the leg swap helps a ton.
Cool solution! Maybe IWM listen to that!  I have to revisit my two Jupiter minis one per variant redo them.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: SteelRaven on 05 January 2020, 18:52:46
Unless the Jupiter 3 is super popular, it would have to be fan financed. IWM can't afford to just toss away molds and pay for a new one unless there is already a demand.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 January 2020, 22:15:03
I doubt the Jupiter is anywhere close to being that popular.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: Wrangler on 05 January 2020, 22:18:32
Jupiter was go to mech for early Dark Age novels.  It IS game stats very solid mech.
Title: Re: 'Mech of the Week: Jupiter
Post by: MoneyLovinOgre4Hire on 05 January 2020, 22:26:58
Early Dark Age novels seemed to be promoting the new mechs.