Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman  (Read 46351 times)

SteelRaven

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #120 on: 14 May 2015, 18:47:38 »
I really started to like the Rifleman more post Project Phoenix, new tech allowed for both more armor and firepower. Ironically, think the Primitive art is also the best look for the machine
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #121 on: 14 May 2015, 19:00:04 »
I really started to like the Rifleman more post Project Phoenix, new tech allowed for both more armor and firepower. Ironically, think the Primitive art is also the best look for the machine

It's a lovely beast.
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Nahuris

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #122 on: 14 May 2015, 19:11:44 »
The thing is, both the Rifleman and the Jagermech are both viable designs, for the battlefield, in the same way that the Sherman and Hellcat were viable. To use a WWII analogy, and only as a comparison, not an argument, they are similar to the Sherman and the Hellcat tanks. Neither really had the armor to stand up to the opposition that they were facing, but, by the time that the weaknesses were known, the Allied forces were in a position where taking the time to retool the production lines would have created a shortage of tanks, and could have cost the allies the war. At the same time, it was the weaknesses of those designs that were creating the losses that required constant production to replace. And with the need to ship across the Atlantic, there was no way that the design could be altered, or replaced.

The Inner Sphere faces the same issue --- most mechs are being shipped to very far away locations, and with the limited shipping capabilities in the Inner Sphere, not enough are being shipped to create the surpluses needed to give time for a retooling of the lines. So, the factories keep churning out designs to replace losses created by the weakness of the design that is being created.

The second complaint about the Rifleman, and other designs mentioned, seems to be the autocannons, which really goes more to show the metagame aspect of tabletop play, versus the attitudes that would be found in the universe. For one thing, you have to look at the armor, before you can judge the autocannons in game. One thing about Battletech that people need to realize is that Battletech Armor is radically different than any other armor. In the real world, we do not use the 37MM guns from the M3 Lee, or the Panzers II and III, because they no longer have the ability to damage the armor of modern vehicles. However, in Battletech the AC/5 does 5 damage --- it does 5 damage in the Star League, it does 5 damage through all 300 years of the succession wars, and it does 5 damage all the way up to 3145. That's a 500 year span, right there, and the AC/5 was developed prior to the Star League. Plus, pretty much any planet with metal deposits and a machine shop can make one. Add in the fact that AC's seem to be very flexible in ammo types, as in AC/5 ammo for the Wolverine will fit the AC/5 in the Marauder, the Zeus, or the Rifleman......and you have a good reason for it to have survived. Along with it's ability to be used as a field gun, by infantry. 

Now, I know that people have stated that lasers are easy to maintain --- just polish the lenses..... true, but what if they crack? What if one of the capacitors gets damaged? What if the software that tracks the laser energy output and feedback gets corrupted, or a power line cut, due to battle damage, etc. Some of these things, such as damaged electrical connectors can effect AC's too --- but the parts for an AC are NOT as technologically advanced, as are the parts for a laser. You need more precise manufacturing to make a lens for a laser, than you do for an AC.

On the table, from a purely stats viewpoint, AC's make no sense.... and to a NON-Military mind, should have been phased out. From a military standpoint, it's a lot like the issue the US Army had with Helmets --- we developed the PASGT Helmet, which is the one that we just replaced, during the Vietnam War, but it was rejected by the Army, due to it's resemblance to the German WWII helmets. It wasn't accepted until the 80's ---- so it took a decade for our army to accept a superior helmet, based on it's look.

That would be how mech pilots would see the AC --- it worked for the first mech --- it worked for the Star League --- it worked for the Succession Wars --- and it works against Reflective Armor, or Reactive Armor, now.

The first armor to ever be specifically effective against AC's doesn't show up until FM3145 with the Ballistic Reinforced armor --- and let's face it, getting only 12 points per ton, means that you are paying tonnage in armor to half an AC.... while beam weapons do normal damage. I really don't see a LOT of mechs going for this option.... meaning that on a modern battlefield, the old reliable AC is probably still just as effective as it has always been. Especially since Reflective Armor still gets 16 points per ton, and can be very effective against energy boats.


So, yeah, the AC is not as effective, and by definition, those mechs, such as the Rifleman, are not as efficient, but that is a metagame bean counter view of the universe. Within the universe, people are more likely to see if differently... as it's not likely that the average person knows the exact damage that a weapon does..... we use fixed damages, but in the universe, there would be glancing blows, or ricochets, meaning that the damage would be less consistent, which means that AC's would remain viable, as would the mechs that use them.

The Rifleman is a solid design.... it has flaws, and like so many other designs, things could be done better, but it does work.

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Maingunnery

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #123 on: 15 May 2015, 11:51:07 »

We have quite a few variants of the Rifleman. But what is strange for me is that the only quad AC/2 'variant', is the Rifleman IIC 2 (which uses UAC/2s). I feel that it have made sense if there was an obscure Rifleman variant that inspired it (in-universe). Such a variant could even have been an easy refit of the either the 3C or 3N.
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Valtech

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #124 on: 26 November 2019, 21:33:45 »
Lots of intelligent thoughts on this machine in the write up and the comments. I would
just observe that one reason the Rifleman seems to suffer post Star League is that it
is SPECIALIZED.

In the Star League where Mechs are purchased by the thousand and specialized
machines are the norm the Rifleman is just fine as the Fire Support / Anti-Air
platform...plenty of other units will do the up-close work. Weak armor, no
hands, poor close in weaponry....not a big deal.

Succession States wrangling among the rubble....any mech that can be cobbled
together in use...all machines doing all things. That's a tough spot for a machine
like a Rifleman to be used in. Its not remotely an "all rounder" despite the tinkering.
The Rifleman is always the team player..."Legend Killer" fame not withstanding...

I have some good luck on the table top with the early Rifleman so long as I kept
my distance.

Hellraiser

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #125 on: 26 November 2019, 21:38:31 »
Holy 4-Year THREADCROMANCY Batman!  (Valtech)

And the dead shall rise among us,  lol.

That Quad-AC2 idea would nicely have an extra 2 tons of badly needed armor.

I like the 3C in L1 game.  Not much in 3050 impresses me but the 6X natural upgrade from the 3C is rather nice in the Civil War era.
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Firesprocket

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #126 on: 26 November 2019, 23:36:06 »
Given its role, I'm surprised that no one thought to put a smaller engine in the Rifleman until the Clans thought it up.  It would solve some of the armoring issues with that extra weight and without tossing any weapons.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #127 on: 27 November 2019, 04:08:31 »
Nah, the Star League decided bigger was better with the Jagermech and the Riflemen II.  Of course, the Jagermech came out about 10 years before Kerensky left, and the Riflemen II ended up as an assault mech with dual large pulse lasers and LB-10xs, so their solutions were the usual overcompensation the TH puts into solving an issue.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #128 on: 27 November 2019, 04:34:14 »
Given its role, I'm surprised that no one thought to put a smaller engine in the Rifleman until the Clans thought it up.  It would solve some of the armoring issues with that extra weight and without tossing any weapons.


Agreed, from an In Universe perspective, a 3/5/3 movement profile would seem better as the speed is of less use tactically, the jump jets would allow your AAA asset to get to awkward-to-access but useful high ground for better coverage with radar and guns, and from a operational or strategic point of view, the difference between a cruising speed of 30-something and 40-something kph is not all that great given that is already the speed of a lot of your heavier and support assets.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #129 on: 27 November 2019, 11:36:38 »
We have quite a few variants of the Rifleman. But what is strange for me is that the only quad AC/2 'variant', is the Rifleman IIC 2 (which uses UAC/2s). I feel that it have made sense if there was an obscure Rifleman variant that inspired it (in-universe). Such a variant could even have been an easy refit of the either the 3C or 3N.
The only pre-TW aerotech rules I ever owned were the simplified ground attack stuff in BT:C or RoW, can't recall which. How did the rules differ vis a vi control rolls and taking damage?
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Maelwys

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #130 on: 27 November 2019, 11:55:51 »
One of the Legend-Killer variants that were published gave it 3/5/3 movement, though most of the weight savings went into heat sinks (it also drops the medium lasers), but it also got a slight bump in armor.

Sabelkatten

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #131 on: 27 November 2019, 12:00:03 »
The only pre-TW aerotech rules I ever owned were the simplified ground attack stuff in BT:C or RoW, can't recall which. How did the rules differ vis a vi control rolls and taking damage?
Original AT1 fighter hit tables looked like vehicle hit tables - auto-TACs everywhere!

Empyrus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #132 on: 27 November 2019, 15:32:31 »
Given its role, I'm surprised that no one thought to put a smaller engine in the Rifleman until the Clans thought it up.  It would solve some of the armoring issues with that extra weight and without tossing any weapons.
I'd imagine the Rifleman is intended to match movement capabilities of main Star League heavies, which usually have 4/6 movement.

While 3/5/3 movement allows for flexible platform, it cannot quite keep up with faster units. Jumping may not be advisable always, whether due to terrain or just generally revealing signature.

Furthermore, jumping is inadvisable while trying to shoot accurately. The Clan version can get away with it due to its pulse lasers and generally greater range.

Valtech

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #133 on: 30 November 2019, 01:36:26 »
What can I say...the Rifleman is just of those Battletech classics..  Maybe the last one
in existence is cobbled together from five different wrecks out on some Periphery hell
hole but...  :)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #134 on: 30 November 2019, 03:27:17 »
One of the Legend-Killer variants that were published gave it 3/5/3 movement, though most of the weight savings went into heat sinks (it also drops the medium lasers), but it also got a slight bump in armor.
Can you cite where this is from?  I'm fairly certain they haven't released a 3/5/3 rifleman outside of the IIC line.

Wrangler

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #135 on: 30 November 2019, 09:08:42 »
Rifleman III was 2/3 given it's 4 friggin Gauss Rifles (this is from XTRO: Gunslingers).

I went through all my record sheet books/pdfs, MUL, and Sarna.  There isn't a Legend-Killer variant other than the Rifleman II that was alleged to be used by Norton Gray as ONE of his Legend Killers.  Since it was Lostech mech he found.  However, it's canon rumor, not hard evidence.  Anyways, that one goes 4/6 so it's not 3/5 machine.
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SteelRaven

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #136 on: 30 November 2019, 10:57:21 »
A unrealistic rumor post scale creep, the Rifleman II would be notable larger. One Rifleman including Lost Tech would be another story.
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Maelwys

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #137 on: 30 November 2019, 11:14:16 »
Can you cite where this is from?  I'm fairly certain they haven't released a 3/5/3 rifleman outside of the IIC line.

The Print Version of Record Sheets 3055U (the one with all the Solaris stable rules) provides a small bio on Gray Noton, including 3 Special Piloting abilities that he had, as well as record sheets for the "RFL-3N Rifleman (Legend Killer)" "RFL-3N Rifleman (Legend Killer 2) and the RFL-3N-2 Rifleman II (Legend Killer).

R.Tempest

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #138 on: 10 December 2019, 23:53:44 »
 Always loved the look of the original - best picture (IMHO) is the cover of the 1st edition MechWarrior RPG. Of course it's about to be eviscerated by the Warhammer it's facing at short range.
 There was a scenario in one the early scenario packs (maybe `Tales of the Black Widow' or `Fox's Teeth') that had a potentially nasty Rifleman in it. IIRC the set up was a convoy raid. The convoy was moving advanced prototype equipment escorted by a lance of mechs including a Rifleman. Part of the advanced equipment are prototype double heat sinks. The escort has 10 of these that can be distributed among the mechs as the defending player see's fit, replacing regular heat sinks on a one for one basis. Putting all 10 into the Rifleman creates a monster because no one expects both AC-5's and both Large Laser's for several turns.
 I'm pretty sure the scenario is illegal now but it would be fun.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #139 on: 11 December 2019, 02:00:04 »
That is from the Black Widow book.

Its part of the 4 part Battle for Hoff.

It featured DHS-P's that are actually better than the 3039-Freezers or the traditional DHS of the SLDF era.

And it was 20 DHS distributed over a 3 mech Lance.  (Archer x2 + Rifleman IIRC)

The unit w/ the DHS was the Eridani Light Horse.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #140 on: 21 January 2021, 11:44:55 »
Necroing in reference to the new entries for the Recogniton Guide:  ilClan.

What does everyone think of the new Rifleman models?  I like the 7N2--the LBX pellets will be unaffected by all the Ballistic-Reinforced specialty armors the DCMS is using.  That being said though--it is a trade off to the old PP RFL-6X.  The 6X moves 5/8 and has CASE, while this newer model moves 4/6 but has CASE II.  Not sure which I would like better.

Thoughts from the community on the new/old Rifleman?  Not the best mech, but I love the new art and have a soft spot for the old 3N.

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #141 on: 21 January 2021, 11:55:11 »
7G: Meh, never liked RFLs with just one gun per arm. Two or bust. Objectively, twin SB-Gauss is pretty good though.
7N: Love it. Basically the Rifleman perfected. Anti-air and anti-vehicle utility, reasonable range.
7N2: It's okay. Pointless tweaking as far as i'm concerned. While it does hit a bit harder, i'm not a fan of the range loss, especially losing better brackets! But it seems reasonably effective overall.
C 3: Good, good. I mean, it is hard to mess up with Clan-tech but ERLLs and Ultra-5s? I like it. Objectively LB-5Xs would've been better but i have soft-spot for UAC/5s and the 'Mech is very Clannish with its focus on firepower. (Also as noted, LB-Xs lose effectiveness against certain armors.)

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #142 on: 21 January 2021, 11:57:42 »
That is from the Black Widow book.

Its part of the 4 part Battle for Hoff.

It featured DHS-P's that are actually better than the 3039-Freezers or the traditional DHS of the SLDF era.

And it was 20 DHS distributed over a 3 mech Lance.  (Archer x2 + Rifleman IIRC)

The unit w/ the DHS was the Eridani Light Horse.
under current rules those escorting mechs would be terrible choices for the scenario.. as the prototype DHS can only replace non-engine heatsinks.. archers only have their ten SHS and all of those are inside the engine, while the Rifleman has most of its SHS inside the engine as well, preventing you from mounting many DHS-P.

definately illustrates how the game has grown.

Rifleman III was 2/3 given it's 4 friggin Gauss Rifles (this is from XTRO: Gunslingers).

I went through all my record sheet books/pdfs, MUL, and Sarna.  There isn't a Legend-Killer variant other than the Rifleman II that was alleged to be used by Norton Gray as ONE of his Legend Killers.  Since it was Lostech mech he found.  However, it's canon rumor, not hard evidence.  Anyways, that one goes 4/6 so it's not 3/5 machine.
has now been addressed in the Battletech:Legends product. he piloted an introtech RFL-3N, but it had been customized in subtle ways such as modified myomers, star league neurohelmet circuitry, and its targeting and tracking system being hybridized with the combat computer off a Stalker. meaning that it would basically be an otherwise standard RFL-3N with various design quirks that make it easier to pilot, generate less heat, and so on.. but the modifications are described as somewhat juryrigged, suggesting it was a real hanger queen (likely having quirks like non-standard parts, hard to maintain, etc.) no list of quirks is provided but the description given makes it fairly easy to guess some of the quirks it might have.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2021, 12:15:26 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #143 on: 21 January 2021, 15:57:38 »
Legend Killer has now been addressed in the Battletech:Legends product. he piloted an introtech RFL-3N, but it had been customized in subtle ways such as modified myomers, star league neurohelmet circuitry, and its targeting and tracking system being hybridized with the combat computer off a Stalker. meaning that it would basically be an otherwise standard RFL-3N with various design quirks that make it easier to pilot, generate less heat, and so on.. but the modifications are described as somewhat juryrigged, suggesting it was a real hanger queen (likely having quirks like non-standard parts, hard to maintain, etc.) no list of quirks is provided but the description given makes it fairly easy to guess some of the quirks it might have.
Soooo.....It relies on design quirks to manage eek out victories? I'm not sure that would work, then again I've not really been in a table game where Design Quirks were used. MegaMek perhaps, but not Knowingly.  Any case, i nursing some doubts how effective a Design quirk only would. I guess it skirts around the issue of new tech in age where ComStar hunted down anyone who had some.
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GuyIncognito

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #144 on: 21 January 2021, 16:40:34 »
It's basically like taking a customized hand gun to a competition.

What people had been expecting was a high end tactical polymer spec ops handgun that Solid Snake uses. Lightweight, laser sight, reflex optics, all that, except it just somehow looks like a Beretta 92FS.

What they get is a Beretta 92FS... With competition sights, a hair trigger, custom grip, rebalanced barrel for accurate shooting...

So it's still just an old, heavy Beretta, but it's one that'll be accurate and reliable every time. It wasn't unfair technological advantage, Gray Norton really just was that amazing.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2021, 16:43:37 by GuyIncognito »

Colt Ward

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #145 on: 21 January 2021, 16:41:13 »
Or Gray Noton has some specific SPAs like Human TRO.

Trenton Marik's Rifleman is a solid derivative.

But yeah, I look forward to rolling out the RFL C 3
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #146 on: 21 January 2021, 16:52:37 »
It's basically like taking a customized hand gun to a competition.

What people had been expecting was a high end tactical polymer spec ops handgun that Solid Snake uses. Lightweight, laser sight, reflex optics, all that, except it just somehow looks like a Beretta 92FS.

What they get is a Beretta 92FS... With competition sights, a hair trigger, custom grip, rebalanced barrel for accurate shooting...

So it's still just an old, heavy Beretta, but it's one that'll be accurate and reliable every time. It wasn't unfair technological advantage, Gray Norton really just was that amazing.

And I for one am perfectly fine with that.
Speaking of being pleased, it's great to have so many new options for the Rifleman. I've always been fond of it, it was the first mech I ever took to the table and it's more guns than brains attitude speaks to me.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #147 on: 21 January 2021, 18:21:22 »
Soooo.....It relies on design quirks to manage eek out victories? I'm not sure that would work, then again I've not really been in a table game where Design Quirks were used. MegaMek perhaps, but not Knowingly.  Any case, i nursing some doubts how effective a Design quirk only would. I guess it skirts around the issue of new tech in age where ComStar hunted down anyone who had some.

the combat computer referenced is the one off the original Stalkers, the  Spar 3c Tight Band targeting & tracking system, which was fluffed to be able to calculate what weapons to fire in what combinations to minimize heat build up. under the quirks, that would be the Combat Computer quirk, which automatically reduces all heat generated by the mech by 4. so effectively, Legend Killer was rolling into battle with not only a star league neurohelmet (which reduces PSR difficulties) but also having a heat dissipation of about 14.. which would let him fire his large lasers for only a net +2 heat before movment, and net +4 heat if he tosses in the AC5's as well. instead of the +6 and +8 of a normal RFL-3N. it means he can basically fire his large lasers almost constantly without building up heat very fast, and easily handle firing the all the arm guns while riding the heat curve. it is the next best thing to DHS.

the description has it mounting an amalgamation of the Tek Tru-Trak and Spar-3c targeting systems, apparently a custom build with ID codes and part stamps indicating a star league era design facility specializing in custom hardware for SLDF Gunslinger machines.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2021, 18:29:26 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #148 on: 26 January 2021, 18:59:26 »
under current rules those escorting mechs would be terrible choices for the scenario.. as the prototype DHS can only replace non-engine heatsinks.. archers only have their ten SHS and all of those are inside the engine, while the Rifleman has most of its SHS inside the engine as well, preventing you from mounting many DHS-P.
Yes, but under that rule set they could be mounted in the engine &/or, ALL hs were mounted outside the engine. 
You could replace ANY of the mechs HS per the rules.
Either way that lance got a whole lot more endurance in how it shoots.
Using them w/ today's rules might require an option with customization to "Remove-SHS/Engine" to "Add-DHS-P/RightTorso" or some option like that to simply mount less than the max SHS in the engine.

As for Legend Killer, while I like the quirks v/s raw SLDF tech, I really wish they had got the bigger route, to account for the Solaris pack pointing out that there was evidence the mech weighed 80-90 tons.    Even an Introtech 80-ton upsize w/ the same 240 SFE but packing AC10's & extra Armor/SHS would have been viable to kill other Assault mechs as he did. 
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

garhkal

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: RFL-** Rifleman
« Reply #149 on: 27 January 2021, 01:46:04 »
Perhaps we need a "Make a better rifleman" design thread...
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

 

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