Crusader Clans vs. Inner Sphere, 3050-3061

[Easy]

cleanup

[Jellico]

Rules
Aerospace fighters die more easily than Mechs. Range advantages count for less and there is a premium on short range combat. So low tech fighters can be more effective longer.

Revisionism
Short version. The nature of OP Revival aerospace was rewritten after the event. Probably due to Tyra Miraborg. It gives an area where the IS is competitive for narrative purposes in an area where no one plays.

It is worth noting that while a Regiment brings 18 fighters (36 for the DC and later FRR) a Cluster brings 20 or 30 fighters. Okay the Clans lose a few to artillery duty but the numbers are basically equal. The Clans should be winning on tech alone.
Just how bad is the aerospace phenotype* or is narrativium at work?


Food for thought. CGB mostly runs aerospace Binaries. 20 ASF. And they don't use the aerospace phenotype. And they face the DC and FRRs double sized aerospace Wings. And you don't hear about CGB suffering for it.
Someone really has it in for the aerospace phenotype.

[Atarlost]

The theory I've seen proposed is that the Clans have poor or poorly implemented good fighter doctrine because they breed for glory seekers and train for dueling and this is far more detrimental in ASF combat than mech combat. 

The Ghost Bears are least internally backstabbing Clan so it's not surprising they fare the best.  It's not the lack of the ASF genotype, it's that their warriors are willing to actually watch out for their wingman in stead of haring off after personal glory in hopes of being recognized for a bloodname trial. 

[Hellraiser]

A couple things to consider.

1.  Clans bid away part of their forces.  This is especially true of AS forces.  So what starts at 20-30 probably ends up as 10.

2.  IS forces often field more than the "typical" 18 fighters.   Command Flights,  RCT Double/Triple wings, & Planetary Defense Wings can all boost that # to 20-60+

3.  As stated, Zero-G space combat has completely different movement than ground forces.   Its much easier to close into short range & much easier to get into the rear arc & you get bonuses IIRC towards staying in that rear arc.  I would say that IS Fighters probably had every bit of the 2-1 advantage that the mechs did.  Probably more since the fighters lacked tank/infantry support & arrogant clanners would think they can take them on 3-1.

[Wotan]

Their technological and genetical advantages doesn't weight that much in naval battles than on the ground. That was said earlier.
While numbers might be similar, the clans will most likely bid down their ASF forces first. So in the engagement they will face superior numbers on the side of the enemies.
Clan ASF pilots are trained in high speed duels. They do not assist each other. On the other side the IS ASF pilots are trained to fight as a team. So while the superior clan ASF pilot is focused on his duel enemy, he is shut down from the wingman.

If clans like the Snow Raven or Cloud Cobra would be part of the invasion forces we might have seen a different story.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'll ditto the comments about tech base advantages counting for less in Aerospace contexts.  The kind of tech that does actually impact space battle (DHS, XLFE, Capital Weapons) behaves more or less equally across the IS-Clan divide.

I'll also ditto the dueling aspect. Where mech battles might conceivably remain zell-complaint, space battles basically never will.  Probably never even between two Clans, but certainly never between IS and Clan forces.  ASF-centric battles invariably devolve into "furballs" where the fighter that kills you isn't the fighter you're shooting at, but his buddy.  In game play, a dogfight acts like a black hole.  More and more fighters get sucked in and once involved they never can escape.  Not until you win the dogfight, and therefore the game after the stakes have built to critical mass, at any rate.

Outside of the game mechanics, Fuel is also an issue.  Clan fighters have been benefiting from the meta: tracking fuel expenditure became an optional rule shortly after the Clans were introduced but before they were given stats for their fighters... making tonnage devoted to fuel in-effect wasted tonnage.  TRO:3055 gives the backbone of the Clan space strength and they mostly take full advantage of the munchkinny-small fuel tanks.  But in the "in-universe 'reality'", fuel still matters. Clan fighters do often lack the endurance of IS fighters, and running out of fuel is a bigger problem than the better ton-for-ton advantage in punching power Clan-tech grants... once you can't maneuver it no longer really matters how ubar your ER PPCs and pulse lasers are.

[Easy]

Rules
Aerospace fighters die more easily than Mechs. Range advantages count for less and there is a premium on short range combat. So low tech fighters can be more effective longer.

Revisionism
Short version. The nature of OP Revival aerospace was rewritten after the event. Probably due to Tyra Miraborg. It gives an area where the IS is competitive for narrative purposes in an area where no one plays.

It is worth noting that while a Regiment brings 18 fighters (36 for the DC and later FRR) a Cluster brings 20 or 30 fighters. Okay the Clans lose a few to artillery duty but the numbers are basically equal. The Clans should be winning on tech alone.
Just how bad is the aerospace phenotype* or is narrativium at work?


Food for thought. CGB mostly runs aerospace Binaries. 20 ASF. And they don't use the aerospace phenotype. And they face the DC and FRRs double sized aerospace Wings. And you don't hear about CGB suffering for it.
Someone really has it in for the aerospace phenotype.

Tyra's Morning

Morning star shining bright
Freedom's star shining bright.
For a free republic we unite
Tyra's star shining bright

Tyra's Shilone carries 5 tons of standard Fuel, the Shilones are fighting Clan interceptors and Dire Wolf's point defense. Those Clan fighters might have just launched from their Dropship carriers, or even Dire Wolf.

The range of the IS strike is long. The Drakkons fight all the way through the Clan aerospace force to the flagship and deal it a significant blow.

The Draconis Combine front, in OP Dragonslayer, also reflected the coverage capability of the IS ASF wings, resulting in the Clan ASF scattering and never quite establishing superiority. Only, as is said, the fuel range of the fighters explains how long and far they can operate and patrol from carrier craft.

[Jellico]

Ehh, sort of.

Combat in space is non intuitive. Capital sensors out range practical aerospace flight times. OTOH range can be essentially infinite because once you start moving you won't stop with no fuel cost due to the vacuum of space. And you can go from the surface to orbit in minutes.
ASF in space are not standoff weapons. They are point defense.

While I totally accept the doctrinal failure interpretation I am not so sure it was always the case.
The existence of Points shows the real life creators of the Clans were well aware of wingman. Also I am hard pressed to find examples in Wolf, Falcon, and Invading Clans where aerospace failures are a notable problem. The ASF were successful enough that they were the go to answer for dealing with artillery.
Inferior aerospace is something that really only starts to show up in the Field Manual era.

[Colt Ward]

Not even sure it is a failure in the FM era . . .

To look at the beginning . . . consider the Ghost Bear's new Invasion Khan, Bjorn Jorgensson.  A ASF pilot for a frontline cluster, he did not see action until his galaxy was used to retake worlds that had risen up after the Bears moved on.  He tested up to be a Star Colonel and command his old cluster when he became Khan.  We do not unfortunately get any details of his combat on Tukayyid or afterwards.

BoK trilogy had Carew and his wingman engaging some ComStar fighters over Tukayyid so it would be logical for Bjorn to have also faced Spheriod defenders.  IIRC the narrative both ComGuard fighters encountered were shot down but Carew lost his wingman though he claimed the last opponent as a bondsman due to his/her skill in taking down the point-mate and contesting Carew.

But in BoK, WCSB, JFSB and ICSB we get stories of Clan aerospace bombing IS defense points in support of Clan ground forces.  The Refusal War also saw Wolf and Falcon ASF involved in ground strikes, in fact IIRC the Falcon ASF of two galaxies fought a huge air battle over the grounded Falcon forces on Morges against the surviving Warden Wolf ASF and supporting Kell Hound ASF.

We also get the naval battle from the Dragon Roars SB where the Aero forces are just trying to fight their way through to land the ground forces so they are not destroyed in their transports.

I think its only 'inferior' when compared to how superior the Clan ground forces are to their enemies.

[Skyth]

I know in BoK Tyra and her wingmate did engage some clan fighters during the initial invasion. 

My memory might be faulty but I remember someone in one of the novels commenting on the ASFs being near parity.  I thought it was during BoK but I might be misplacing it.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In space, Clan vs IS is at near-parity.  The rules don't recognize an advantage in range for Clan-tech weapons... the functional benefit to Clantech vs IStech is a slightly better ratio of damage to ton.

An XLFE can more than compensate for that slight Clan advantage.  I'd pick the IS side every time if they get all XLFE fighters and the Clans are only allowed SFE fighters.

Even the skill advantages from trueborn bloodlines are less meaningful in space.  With no TMMs nor terrain modifiers, 4/5 pilots are already hitting reliably. Going to 3/4 isn't that much of a difference.

[Hellraiser]

Another thing to consider when talking about the "failed" clan Aeroforces is the stigma of the pilot Genotype.

In the fluff, the ASF genetics has a serious flaw in it.  It doesn't translate to their time in the cockpit but it is a problem outside of it.

The fighter pilots are physically small & weaker than normal humans.

Sure, they are smarter, faster, & with better vision, etc etc, but in the end, they are physically weaker.

Its why the Bears don't use that phenotype IIRC.

Also, in regards to ASF not using wingmen, I don't think that is the case.  As we see with Carew & his partner they worked together.

But that very issue is probably part of the stigma against pilots (and tankers). 

In a world where the single mechwarrior is the epitome of perfection able to stand alone w/o the help of anyone & the Zell Duel is the epitome of honor.... then the concept of 2 warriors having to depend on each other to reach max potential doesn't sit well.

That's how I see it anyway, its not just 1 thing.   Its all of it added together that create the anti-aero pilot stigma.

[Wotan]

If the clans wouldn't reduce their forces every time and assuming that a cluster have a trinary of ASF, in most conflicts the clans should easily win air supperiority. It seems the clans have a higher ratio of ASF vs mechs than most IS armies.

[Hellraiser]

If the clans wouldn't reduce their forces every time and assuming that a cluster have a trinary of ASF, in most conflicts the clans should easily win air supperiority. It seems the clans have a higher ratio of ASF vs mechs than most IS armies.

Attached to Mech units sure, the typical being 30-45 v/s 36-108  (I use 36 to account for DC, FRR, RCT, & CC sized units)

Where the balance comes in is the shear volume of IS Fighter Units.

The clans have their fighters attached to Warships that we can get #'s on.   But outside of that it seems there isn't a lot of added free floating fighter units.
A couple stars here & there for merchant escort & then some planetary defense units but even those are likely attached to a 2nd line cluster.

The IS on the other had has HUNDREDS of more worlds in a single house than the clans do combined.

If the "typical" IS world has nothing more than a Squadron of Light ASF & 2 Squadrons of Light/Medium Convention Fighters the sheer volume starts to skyrocket.

Now those same units aren't going to get used offensively but they add to defense & harassment ability when invaded.

The IS does have plenty of free floating Aero Squadrons/Wings/Regiments.

We don't see them on FMU Rosters because those have long been stated as only applying to MECH units.

But they do show up in canon fluff, typically in Historicals over the larger wars.  4th SW Atlas,  Wo39, & FC-Civil War all have plenty of notations if you read through them completely.   "XYZ Aero Regiment deployed to back up this or that task force/assault."

In terms of raw #'s my guess is ratio of mechs to fighters across an entire house probably more like 50%

The only known #s in terms of Production that we have are from 3025 House Marik there they produce 2/3 fighter/mech ratio.

I can only assume that other houses are somewhat similar in ratio.

So taking into account the durability of mechs but also the less frequent/shorter combat of fighters that 50% fielded ratio can't be too far off the mark when talking about what is available for offensives.

Clan Bidding is a huge problem when it comes to Total War.

But in turn if the IS is truly pressed they have the ability to assemble a truly massive force for an offensive that the Clans can't match.

Just look at Op:Bulldog, the IS sent small portions of their military to support the DC & that force steamrolled over 1 clan.

Sure that is only 1 clan but its also only a small portion of their military.

At the End of the SL Era Kerensky had a force that would crush any single house, and could probably hold off 2 houses defensively.

But the entire might of the IS was far too much to handle.  Heck IIRC that was part of the reason that Cameron formed the SL to begin with.

To let the TH get access to the far larger amount of resources that the houses & periphery had available to them.

The tech/skill advantage of the Clan/TH gave them tactical/local superiority in many battles, but in terms of logistics/strategic/attrition warfare, they are going to loose in the long run when compared to the entire volume colonized space.

[marauder648]

The Clans also suffered from a really nasty degenerative spiral not too different from Imperial Japan.  The Clans whole Warrior training/breeding system is built to produce the BEST damn warriors and pilots there is.  And individually a Trueborn is more than a match for the IS forces against them. 

But, this system of brutal darwinism produces small numbers which are weeded out by the Clans way of life.  And when they start taking casualties, they simply can't replace them fast enough.  And ASF losses tend to be very final.  So any replacement pool is already small and you're loosing experienced personnel.

[Vehrec]

Clan 'doctrine' for aerospace assets is probably not well defined-but a few things jump out at you.  For one thing, Aerospace fighters are in 2-member points like Vehicles-a tank commander and an aerospace pilot are theoretically equals.  Aerospace fighters don't have the added danger of intra-unit scuffles that come from a single tank having several crew who might view the other members of the crew as rivals, but the pilots are all in direct competition.  Cutting in front of someone with a good shot to get your own might be not only commonplace, but order-of-the day, even with Zel.  Nicki apparently knew that Wingmen fight better together in pairs, but does this information trickle down to the modern era?  Do points duel with other points under Zel, or do individual fighter pilots pair off and attack each other in pairs.

Direction of pilots is also an area that might be highly contentious.  A flight-controller on a ship trying to herd warriors into battle might be a lower-ranked warrior, a higher ranked officer, or just a technician reading off orders, depending on the clan and the ship in question.  All of these can expect problems-but especially lower ranked and lower caste crew.  To combat this, simple 'barrage blocks' can be constructed, and points assigned to patrol specific blocks, to prevent the entire CAP structure from just enveloping any 'prey' like an ameoba, and suffering from target fixation, but this is equally problematic in it's inflexibility.

Training?  Boy, the Clans like to reward success and punish failure-but what if the first few trials that Aerospace warriors have out of the Sibko are almost always effectively random?  I've seen evidence that pilots in training are basically random in their success and failure being predictive of later skill.  So if you're basically getting random selection from Sibkos, then it's your subsequent training that makes or breaks your pilots, and I do not know what Clan policies on retraining, additional education, and post-graduate work are like.

Finally, the Clans may suffer higher Virtual Attrition-not the actual destruction of pilots and aerospace frames, but such returning to base because they're out of fuel, or have shot off their ammo without scoring a kill.  The clans like to cram in extra weapons rather than have, you know, actually sensible heat sinks or extra fuel and ammo, and this can come back to haunt incautious pilots.  Pilots who are too cautious and refuse to roll the dice, on the other hand, are hauling around about 20 tons of useless weaponry.

[marauder648]

Very very good points Vehrec!  RE the CAP and how to organise it I never thought of it like that.  I would guess that a WarShips fighter Star's would have a Star Captain or something and he or she would be flying with them and acting like the CAG, but of course this limits their tactical overview and then again they could suffer from the problem of the IJN in WW2.  At Midway the Japanese CAP operated with minimal control from the carriers and whilst they would patrol a sector, the CAP reacted very organically with fighters being drawn into engagements and get target fixated.

I suppose the control could work like this

Ships Captain - directs the Star Captains of his/her WarShip - the Star Captain then issues orders to his/her Star. 

Its slow and cumbersome and places additional work on the commander of the warship and the Star Captain themselves. 

But on a bigger WarShip this creates a huge workload so you'd need a CAG to direct 60 odd fighters.  And would any fighters attached to a DropShip follow the directions of the Warship captain or would they follow the directions of their DropShip's captain? 

This might be resolved within certain Clans who have a lot of naval strength and experience etc.  So the Ravens then, and I could see their CAG's as being a quite high ranking officer who ALSO flies but his/her job is mainly to direct fighters in an engagement, relaying commands to the Stars.

[Colt Ward]

This might be resolved within certain Clans who have a lot of naval strength and experience etc.  So the Ravens then, and I could see their CAG's as being a quite high ranking officer who ALSO flies but his/her job is mainly to direct fighters in an engagement, relaying commands to the Stars.

Dunno . . . Sterling McKenna, Khan of the Snow Ravens, could not get back to her DS attached to the FedSuns jumpship.  She got to the FedSuns fighter bay and threw the Feddie pilot out of the cockpit before the fighter was launched.  Her nominal wingman got vaped, but she took both the opposing fighters out- or herded one into the DS guns, I forget.

I would again say you need to look at BoK's dogfights, I know Carew gets in one over Tukayyid and I think one is in the black in #1 or #2.  I think a dogfight also shows up in the Red Corsair book.

[marcussmythe]

I always attributed this to mechanical factors - in space, its easy to close the range and THNs are lower - undermining the two big clan advantages of higher skill levels and ‘you cant fight back’ ranges.  The Clan ASF will still have more firepower and armor, but it doesnt get to deny its opponent the chance to fight back.

In Air, the higher clan skill levels will help with the lawn-darting, but the ability of a single MLas to knock down a heavy fighter, coupled with large numbers of defending conventional fightere, goes a long, long way to redressing the clan advantages. 

Its really pretty striking when you think about the difference.  A clan heavy mech will murder 20 ton tracks almost forever.  The same number of conventional fighters will put a clan heavy fighter into the ground pretty reliably.

[Jellico]

Titans are fluffed as having CAGs. Aesirs are heavily implied to have one, to the point of having initiative buffing advanced sensors.