What data can be gathered off slavaged electronics?

[Colt Ward]

The Clans will be able to take IS armor in open field battles, especially since what they would be facing on the periphery edge would be companies of Vedettes, Hetzers, Scorpions and Condors rather than Von Luckners, Manticores, Pattons or Drillsons . . . playing current rules, I have a Wolf supernova binary chewing their way their way through a vet merc BN supported by two+ companies of militia armor.  It does not matter how much armor you have sitting around if the Clan force blew a hole in the lines and captured the capital- which is what happened in a lot of cases, they did not have to destroy it all just force the gov to surrender.

I think guardiandashi has something about units building up a database on local conditions, but I am not sure that is the same as the OP is referring to with data from systems that can be used for tactical purposes.  Its good info, and valuable on its own- the recent Dragoon's novel release talked about going on raids into the JF OZ and using Lyran data only to find the people who owned the planet 100 years before had sucky maps.  So its worth it.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The Clans will be able to take IS armor in open field battles, especially since what they would be facing on the periphery edge would be companies of Vedettes, Hetzers, Scorpions and Condors rather than Von Luckners, Manticores, Pattons or Drillsons . . . playing current rules, I have a Wolf supernova binary chewing their way their way through a vet merc BN supported by two+ companies of militia armor.  It does not matter how much armor you have sitting around if the Clan force blew a hole in the lines and captured the capital- which is what happened in a lot of cases, they did not have to destroy it all just force the gov to surrender.

  That's fine when the opponents fight on Clan terms, but even feeble Periphery forces have given the Clans an occasional bloody nose by refusing to play their game. In my Luthien scenario, taking that militia-held town was not worth the casualties, and bypassing it would have been my own choice, as the militia would never dare set foot out of the town.

I think guardiandashi has something about units building up a database on local conditions, but I am not sure that is the same as the OP is referring to with data from systems that can be used for tactical purposes.  Its good info, and valuable on its own- the recent Dragoon's novel release talked about going on raids into the JF OZ and using Lyran data only to find the people who owned the planet 100 years before had sucky maps.  So its worth it.

  I recall reading a biography about General Patton who, while on training maneuvers, knew his opponents used official Army maps, dating from the Civil War. Patton gained a significant edge by using up-to-date maps, published by National Geographic.

  After serving 12 years in elected office in Honolulu, I am aware that the most recent maps of a city are usually stored in two government offices: Dept of Planning & Permits, and the Dept of Taxation. They have detailed maps and data, from property altitude and dimensions, to the number of urinals in each men's lavatory at every shopping mall. All the data is public-access information.

Honolulu Tax key map of the Diamond Head Crater area: (The circled numbers refer to detailed maps)

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I wonder how much delay you could buy with obscure languages. 
One of the main sci-fi staples is the universal translator.  Battletech never really stated that it has such a thing, but it never seems to run into language barrier issues.  Given the sheer amount of languages around expert systems for translating just make common sense. 
Applying such a tool to any language barrier that seeked to hide the data via changing the language seems like it would break it very quickly vs actual data encryption techniques.   

Do we know how close Battletech is to universal translators?

  Even translations are mangled, such as how the British mispronounce Latin: Julius Seezer instead of Yulius Kaizar...Just a note, mos people think ancient Romans speak with London accents, due to modern Shakespeare interpretations. In the period Tudor English dialect, a Shakespeare actor of King Henry VIII would sound less like Sir Lawrence Olivier and more like Slim Pickens.

  Language translators must be composed and programmed by fluent speakers, or risk being confused, especially by common idiomatic phrases:
"Er siet Ihr durch den Kakao."
Literal translation: He's dragging you through the hot chocolate.
Idiomatic translation: He's pulling your leg.     

  In that respect, getting the people skilled enough to provide accurate translations of obscure languages would be challenging to impossible.

  Example: Hawaiian. One of my friends fluent in the language told me that there are nine dialects of Hawaiian; One for each island and the University of Hawaii dialect, a simplified (dumbed down) version which is taught in schools, as the only lesson books are published by the university and contain numerous PC-driven errors, which means all the "experts" are really hacks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

[Colt Ward]

  That's fine when the opponents fight on Clan terms, but even feeble Periphery forces have given the Clans an occasional bloody nose by refusing to play their game. In my Luthien scenario, taking that militia-held town was not worth the casualties, and bypassing it would have been my own choice, as the militia would never dare set foot out of the town.

Oh sure, Stalingrad 2.0 could easily develop again for BTU . . . but part of the speed of Clan mech force's attacks (and I dislike this concept) got ahead of the decision cycle of the defenders- unless it was a certain world, the defenders would not have enough numbers to try to block the flow of Clan forces towards the objectives.  The Clans gained the capitulation of way more forces than they actually defeated in direct combat.

[Greatclub]

I think that some of the issues are with translations between 'canon editions'

battletech canon v1: the only tank is the scorpion, there are no factories, terraforming fails regularly, raids are over water purifiers, populations don't give a fig which petty lord rules them and don't resist; everything is circling the drain and nothing gets better ever. Combined arms are understandably dead in this era, as there are no (rules for) infantry, flying things or artillery, and the single tank is a bare step above target practice.

battletech canon v2: Infantry are a little dangerous and vehicles can come with fusion engines, there are actual nations, and things are sort of getting more stable. The house book era, basically, with citytech (Vees and infantry added) and aerotech

Battletech Canon V3 - 4SW happens, clans return, power armor and warships appear, other stuff gets backfilled. But there are holdovers from era 1- populations still don't resist unless they are massively provoked. This makes no sense, people argue about it endlessly, and canon eventually gets a retcon except for the bits seen on screen.

[grimlock1]

With all of that said, as someone mentioned, you would be surprised what information makes it through efforts to keep it protected.  I spent one sunny afternoon helping shred old manuals for certain equipment b/c new ones had been issued- I know another time they used a burn barrel, problem there is not all of the paper will burn b/c it cannot get oxygen so you have to shake/move it around.  Hard drives were replaced from time to time in the field, and ones that were being recycles were supposed to be wiped and then have this 3 inch magnet set on them before being smashed.

I recognize the "suspenders and a belt" logic of wipe, magnetize, then smash but are there records of people being able to retrieve significant amounts of information from a drive after the disk shatters?  The last time I hit a hard drive with a hammer, there wasn't a piece of the platter bigger than a quarter inch across and most of the disk was was reduced to glitter. How much can you get from glitter?

In defense of the real world, Moore's Law was well known by the mid-80's.

Was it the kind of thing you would encounter in Trivial Pursuit, or was it a bit more restricted to the industry?

That's like the first time my GM told me: "You can't use combined arms tactics."
Me: "Yes, I can, just because combined arms isn't standard doctrine, doesn't prevent me from utilizing MY units as I decide."
GM: "Nobody has ever trained in combined arms tactics."
Me: "Fine, my units will not use combined arms tactics -We will utilize radio communications to coordinate pre-planned maneuver, movement and targeting that coincidentally includes infantry, artillery, vehicles, air assets, and battlemechs."

GM:  Fine but the check rolls for those radio calls will be frequent and harsh.

  Combined arms tactics aren't all elaborate Operation Overlord undertakings, they are as simple as using infantry and mortars. The idea of combined arms is to disrupt the enemy by forcing them to defend against one asset while dropping their defense against another. The concept isn't new at all:

The idea is simple, but the execution is all about the details, and we know who lives there. Even at the squad level, there needs to be practice and doctrine.  I was watching something on the A-10 and a pilot related a story of a CAS mission where he couldn't clearly distinguish the friendlies from the unfriendlies.  So the friendlies dug a small hole in the ground, and dropped an IR strobe in the hole.   Infantry working with Armor needs to know the friendly tank's fire lanes, as well as its blind spots. Otherwise they don't know when to let the tank defend itself and when they need to step in and help.

[Colt Ward]

I recognize the "suspenders and a belt" logic of wipe, magnetize, then smash but are there records of people being able to retrieve significant amounts of information from a drive after the disk shatters?  The last time I hit a hard drive with a hammer, there wasn't a piece of the platter bigger than a quarter inch across and most of the disk was was reduced to glitter. How much can you get from glitter?

Which isn't your field demo, that's spy movie stuff . . . care to guess how realistic it really is?

I mentioned field demo, but here it is again- we did this as a drill.  Sitting in the battery HQ, the BOC would be aggressed . . . the perimeter and QRF respond, but at the first sign of contact the person on the right side of the FDC station would lean sideways from their seat into the driver's space to start the vehicle and once it was raise the ramp.  The person who did that would then twist themselves into the driver seat and be prepared to take off if required.  The other person, if the vehicle could not get away was tasked to Z the radios (data dump) and pull the FDC hard drive from the CPU.  Incendiary grenades were to be placed on the radio pairs & hard drive and lit off if the vehicle could not get away.  Never went through this sort of drill for HIMARs, not sure what the changes might have been since the HQ vehicle works differently.

So the HD MIGHT have gotten wiped if the operator new that sort of software actions- but not all did afaik, mostly I think b/c someone would inevitably do that to 'fix' the system.  But that is the battery operations center, its designed to give the HQ vehicle that sort of time if the situation warrants it.

But that is not what happens when a Pegasus scout tank gets hit with a penetrator resulting in the crew dying- who is going to be z'ing out the radios & ECM?  Or a Thanatos takes a headshot that kills the pilot (cockpit crit) but everything else is still viable?  Especially that C3 slave down in the torso/waist?

To be honest, I do not remember any actions involved in long term denial of a mech or tank that is being abandoned- no 'spiking' the gun or burning out its control systems.  At most I think a few control chips for the neurohelmet system.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

GM:  Fine but the check rolls for those radio calls will be frequent and harsh.

Me: That's why nobody likes to play your nanny campaigns. I'll use dispatch riders. Napoleon never had radios and he maneuvered multiple corps in battle, and NEVER needed training exercises. I'll expect the same stupid, amateur rules to be applied to the enemy. If you have to make up crap to prevent players from playing, why bother? Whether its Gettysburg or Stalingrad, I never role play battles.
GM: Nobody likes playing my campaigns?
Me: Get over it.

[Kovax]

Me: That's why nobody likes to play your nanny campaigns. I'll use dispatch riders. Napoleon never had radios and he maneuvered multiple corps in battle, and NEVER needed training exercises.

To be fair, Nappy's era used dispatch riders to deliver orders, and had to wait for execution of the plan until the riders returned to say "message delivered".  There were several incidents where local situations changed suddenly, and the dispatch riders arrived only to notice "unfamiliar uniforms".  Command and control from the top was a bit tenuous at times, and the delays between issuing an order and having it carried out could amount to the better part of an hour in some extreme cases, but some measure of control usually did exist.

With varying levels of security and message encryption/decryption, I can see where combined arms between physically separated elements could become problematical in some situations, but it would still be the norm.  The GM could have a scenario where data security is at unusually high risk, or has already been breached, but in most cases it shouldn't hinder operations.

[Colt Ward]

Hmm, what would be the electronic equivalent of finding orders wrapped around cigars . . . I need to come up with that scenario . . .

[dgorsman]

Orders on an SD card.  Put into a digital camera.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

To be fair, Nappy's era used dispatch riders to deliver orders, and had to wait for execution of the plan until the riders returned to say "message delivered".  There were several incidents where local situations changed suddenly, and the dispatch riders arrived only to notice "unfamiliar uniforms".  Command and control from the top was a bit tenuous at times, and the delays between issuing an order and having it carried out could amount to the better part of an hour in some extreme cases, but some measure of control usually did exist.

With varying levels of security and message encryption/decryption, I can see where combined arms between physically separated elements could become problematical in some situations, but it would still be the norm.  The GM could have a scenario where data security is at unusually high risk, or has already been breached, but in most cases it shouldn't hinder operations.

  Clan Wolf used light, fast omnis to deliver orders to units on Tukayyid when Comstar's jamming prevented radio communications. It still could not prevent Clan commanders from ignoring their orders, after receiving them.

  Two guys ganging up to rob one man in an alley is combined arms. The whole "most units in the IS don't practice it" is garbage. It's like saying "We tell units to attack and hope for the best". Why even have radios at all?

Colonel: "I have the enemy unit pinned, and they have exposed their right flank, have the reserves charge their vulnerable side."
General: "Uh, I don't know, we never did that at the academy -let the reserves make that decision."
Colonel: "Please order the reserves to attack the flank now, while it's exposed."
General: "I looked at the manual and it says that units never leave exposed flanks -Have you considered that it might be a trap?"
Colonel: "My attack is faltering, commit the reserves!"
General: "You're going to have to wait, the staff is currently using the dedicated, regimental radio for ordering pizza and can't be bothered simply because you can't command your troops properly."

 

Sun Tzu graduates suffer a +2 skill roll modifier when they attempt to use their Tactics skill in combat situations where they are leading troops of a dingle type, rather than coordinating the movements of combined-arms forces.

FM:DC (FASA1698)
  Only in BT could academic knowledge of combined-arms be considered a hindrance. This is what happens when people who know nothing of the subject write the rules.

 

[Greatclub]

   FM:DC (FASA1698)
  Only in BT could academic knowledge of combined-arms be considered a hindrance. This is what happens when people who know nothing of the subject write the rules.

One where they're writing a faction that has devolved into idiot glory-hounds who hyper-specialize?

[Colt Ward]

Actually, that penalty makes some sense . . . when you are used to having a hammer & screwdriver for construction, getting just one can make tasks more difficult.  Sure you can hammer in screws (with a high degree of annoyance) or use a screwdriver's handle to pound in nails (ditto) but neither are going to be fast or pretty.  Its more a penalty about taking away someone's crutch.  My group had a player that loved LRMs . . . and especially Semi-G LRMs . . . when people started bringing the right weapons to pound his TAG'ers or send VTOLs/hovertanks to go blow up his LRM Carriers, Vikings or Longbows he had a problem adjusting his game plan.  His crutch was gone which caused him to flail about.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Actually, that penalty makes some sense . . .

  It makes no sense. Using a lance of (anything) to pin and having a lance of (anything else) to flank is combined-arms. Having close ranged (anything) supported by long-ranged (anything else) is combined-arms. The writers just had no clue that everybody with more than one unit regularly practiced it. It's like saying that baking only applied to bread, not to cake or pastries.

One where they're writing a faction that has devolved into idiot glory-hounds who hyper-specialize?

  We are talking about almost an entire universe, who have literally forgotten how to use the military equivalent of the wheel or fire; Something so basic that even cavemen could use it.

Caveman: "That is so condescending."

 

[Colt Ward]

Long range and short range shooters fit your definition of combined arms.  The section you cited is use of different branches in combat- and its a penalty for NOT having combined arms which is why I gave the example of a player (or in BT a commander) losing something they used as a crutch.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Long range and short range shooters fit your definition of combined arms. 

  They fit the modern military definition of combined arms, as well as the definition used for warfare in ancient times. Common usage refers to differing types of arms (ie., tanks, infantry, artillery, etc.,) but can mean units capable of multiple performance, such as Marian Roman infantry using sword and pilum plus auxiliary skirmishers.

I've used battlemechs as skirmishers, scouts, tanks and artillery -in those roles, a battlemech is merely a mobile platform, capable of performing the roles of other arms, hence, their use in differing roles in no different than conventional combined arms.

  While the BTU asserts the battlemech became the primary arm of all military forces, to the point that the were assumed to be the only weapon; Vehicles and infantry never ceased to exist, and those soldiers, just as eager to survive combat as any other, would figure out ways to do it, including reinventing the wheel, which should never have been forgotten.

[Colt Ward]

Okay, but again, the part you quoted was about a penalty for NOT using multiple types in a force- IE, all mechs bad, all vehicles bad.  Runs counter to the 'forgot combined arms' angle when a commander is penalized for NOT using combined arms forces.

[Greatclub]

Also, can you accept that, like 'gun' and 'clip,' the term 'combined arms' means something different to a student of military science and a filthy casual (Like most FASA writers and customers?)

EG, if the stripe down the leg of your trowsers* is the same as the other guys, it isn't combined arms by the FASA definition. The fact that this is wrong in proper military terminology is something for vets to justly gripe about but accept.

*(and yes, I know those uniforms predate even the time of Worktroll)

[Frabby]

I think in BattleTech terms, "combined arms" means "BattleMechs supported by conventional forces" and not what a present-day military person would consider combined arms. It's a cultural bias in the BattleTech universe that stems from BattleMechs being the king of the battlefield to the exclusion of everything else except for niche roles. Real-world wise, it stems from Battledroids being a game about giant mecha duking it out and not a proper wargame simulating "reality".

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Okay, but again, the part you quoted was about a penalty for NOT using multiple types in a force- IE, all mechs bad, all vehicles bad.  Runs counter to the 'forgot combined arms' angle when a commander is penalized for NOT using combined arms forces.

  It is even more absurd than the assertion that people forgot how to use combined arms. To learn combined arms, you first have to at least be able to lead one or more of the different arms. Knowing how to coordinate battlemechs and infantry then only having battlemechs should be simpler, not crippling.

  If I set aside the mechs with LRMs and only use them as indirect fire, using them to support the direct-fire mechs would be combined arms. Again, they are just a variation of weapons platforms. There is little difference between a mech armed with LRMs and vehicles with LRMs, in actual application. Roman legions throwing their pilums are missile troops until they draw their swords, but are still the same type of unit, even while serving as platforms for both pilum and sword.

It's a cultural bias in the BattleTech universe that stems from BattleMechs being the king of the battlefield to the exclusion of everything else except for niche roles.

  That actually made mechs "conventional" and all others "obsolete".

[grimlock1]

Just spit balling here, but as an intel officer, I would almost, if not more interested in personal electronics belonging to the crews of captured mechs or vehicles, and in their ECMs or comms stack.

As has been mentioned, encryption systems are cycled periodically, so the window of utility may be very limited. On the other hand, private correspondence on a personal device might tell me about troop movements or rotation patterns.  I might get lucky and find that some some knucklehead tossed opsec out the hatch and kept a spare copy of the encryption schedule on their tablet, just in case. :-)

[Colt Ward]

I might get lucky and find that some some knucklehead tossed opsec out the hatch and kept a spare copy of the encryption schedule on their tablet, just in case. :-)

Now that . . . that could be something like the cigar-orders.  Get someone's personal tablet and find they had a copy of the CoI for quick reference.

Or a butterbar downloaded a upcoming Op Plan on a memory stick with their porn & pirated movies.

Eh, the last one is more likely.

[Daryk]

More likely than ANYONE wants to admit...  :D

[Col Toda]

If the equipment  was monitoring a remote  sensor  network  it would have some of that . I have a Naganat between  the C3 master and Command Console that one unit can monitor  8 remote sensors  up to 2 km away in every direction  for perimeter  defense

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  I might get lucky and find that some some knucklehead tossed opsec out the hatch and kept a spare copy of the encryption schedule on their tablet, just in case. :-)

  I played Clan Nova Cay OPFOR for a player's Luthien campaign and captured some of his pilots. Since they refused to identify their unit, I used a captured cell phone to call the commander and, posing as somebody who found the phone, asked who it belonged to...the commander identified the unit and where the phone could be returned.
  Later in the campaign, I managed to capture the player's character, who also refused to identify himself and his unit. He drove his 'mech into a small town and decided to dismount and scout on foot, unaware that he was being observed by a point of Nova Cat Elementals. Imagine the Elementals' disappointment...no epic, deadly battle with an assault 'mech... The Elementals pushed the parked 'mech over and set off to capture the player, who sadly handed over his weapon and meekly surrendered. He was loaded onto a VTOL and flown back to a holding area, where other prisoners proudly identified him as their commander.
  Since his command 'mech was captured intact and unsecured, the Nova Cats were able to access his orders, unit TOE and complete history and status of the multi-regiment mercenary unit.

  I wasn't running the campaign but I always love double-blind ops.

[Daryk]

I have to ask... what kind of IDIOT debarks an assault 'mech to "scout on foot"??  ???

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I have to ask... what kind of IDIOT debarks an assault 'mech to "scout on foot"??  ???

  A player will do that. His command lance WALKED through a lake to scout behind enemy lines (He wanted to find my Arrow IV batteries) . What the player didn't realize is that my Elementals not only watched him enter the lake, but planted sensors over 10 kilometers along the shore and tracked his movement. I had a Trinary waiting for him and after he was captured, I sent onmis into the water to round up the rest of the command lance, which fought a useless fight -they were not equipped for a submerged battle as my units were.
  He made a lot of assumptions...the big error was that he forgot who he was facing, because I will surrender firepower for better scouting.

[Daryk]

You'd be somebody interesting to play against... it's a shame we're thousands of miles apart...

[grimlock1]

Now that . . . that could be something like the cigar-orders.  Get someone's personal tablet and find they had a copy of the CoI for quick reference.

Or a butterbar downloaded a upcoming Op Plan on a memory stick with their porn & pirated movies.

Eh, the last one is more likely.

More likely than ANYONE wants to admit...  :D

So for the sake of OPSEC, militaries should provide their troops with a with a secure source of porn? 

I don't recognize the "cigar order" reference.