Author Topic: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?  (Read 27334 times)

Daryk

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #90 on: 11 November 2019, 20:18:14 »
I can only imagine the eye rolling and face palms in that case...  ::)

Cannonshop

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #91 on: 11 November 2019, 20:50:20 »
Try watching The Core with a geologist.

just try watching it as a Geology Student.  I ended up missing whole scenes because I can't see through my fingers.  If it's 'kewl'enough for Hollywood to film it, it's going to be some significant shade of pseudoscience mounted firmly between 'absurd' and 'Fantasy Magic'.

Jump Boosters...heh.  The problem isn't JUST acceleration.  it's also what happens at the end of the arc of travel.  Pick between "Buried up to the knee in the ground" and "Broken leg assemblies".  Unlike even the baloneyium of Jump Jets, mechanical boosters don't even have a hypothetical means of decelerating at the end of the leap-your Atlas is landing at full velocity with no cushion.  The rules gloss over it, but given that a fall causes damage, and you're basically falling at high speed here, the rule of "Anything is air-droppable...once." applies.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2019, 20:51:53 by Cannonshop »
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Daryk

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #92 on: 11 November 2019, 20:54:27 »
Mechanical Jump Boosters can only get you 1 hex though, right?  30m?  ???

Cannonshop

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #93 on: 11 November 2019, 21:04:22 »
Mechanical Jump Boosters can only get you 1 hex though, right?  30m?  ???

push 100 tons into the air 90 feet, then let it fall 'gently' to earth.  something is going to break, whether it's the 100 tons or the ground at the landing end, a one-hex jump like that is going to be breaking something.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #94 on: 11 November 2019, 21:07:35 »
Mechanical Jump Boosters can only get you 1 hex though, right?  30m?  ???

Nope.  It's based on how heavy you make the booster.  It's 5% of the mech's total mass per hex of movement desired, with no upper maximum aside from available tonnage (so you could make a 2/3/8 mech if you wanted to).
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Daryk

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #95 on: 11 November 2019, 21:12:59 »
Ah, missed that somehow over the years... thanks!  :thumbsup:

AdmiralObvious

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #96 on: 12 November 2019, 05:04:58 »
Yeah, combine mechanical jump boosters with regular jump jets, and you get... something?

That 5% mass actually isn't that much for a smaller mech in the 25-35 ton range assuming you also have access to ferro armor (which I assume you would if using experimental tech anyways).

jshdncn

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #97 on: 12 November 2019, 08:38:02 »
While the rules don’t prohibit mounting both jump jets and mechanical jump boosters, they do prevent using both simultaneously.

Wrangler

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #98 on: 12 November 2019, 10:32:25 »
Mechnicals used after using the Jumpjet based ones would make things interesting.  Pogo sticks bouncing out of heels of a Mech so it could cool down from the jump and likely shooting.  Throw in partial wings for 1 additional jump movement and cool no less.

I always think of inspector gadget when i think of these things.  I guess it's results too many times watching this show when i was youngish.
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GRUD

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #99 on: 12 November 2019, 11:54:36 »
Yeah, the partial wing rules actually do make a reasonable amount of sense the way they're written.

Yeah, Nope.  Going to have to "Agree to Disagree" on this one.   :-\  Given the "Gain" from the Partial Wing - well, ANY gain from the Partial Wing really - I don't think they're either large enough or cost enough in weight.

Refer back to my comment about jumping off the roof with an umbrella.  Unless you're a Fictional Nanny that associates with Chimney Sweeps, you're going to wind up getting hurt after trying that.   :-\
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #100 on: 12 November 2019, 13:13:31 »
This is not jumping off a roof with an umbrella.  This is adding control surfaces for increased range and maneuverability while using brute-force plasma jets that are capable of shifting a 50 ton war machine with the aerodynamics of a brick more than 150 meters by themselves.  The wings are boosting what's already there, not doing most of the work themselves.
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dgorsman

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #101 on: 12 November 2019, 13:45:19 »
More like a wingsuit than an umbrella.  You're not getting airborne with one alone, but it noticeably increases horizontal glide distance.
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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #102 on: 12 November 2019, 15:11:37 »
More like a wingsuit than an umbrella.  You're not getting airborne with one alone, but it noticeably increases horizontal glide distance.

Yes this is a great example of how it works IMO.
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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #103 on: 12 November 2019, 15:37:25 »
Yeah, Nope.  Going to have to "Agree to Disagree" on this one.   :-\  Given the "Gain" from the Partial Wing - well, ANY gain from the Partial Wing really - I don't think they're either large enough or cost enough in weight.
Since it's so obviously absurd to the core, you shouldn't have any difficulties walking us through the math to determine exactly what the weight and space requirements should be for its performance then, no?
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Refer back to my comment about jumping off the roof with an umbrella.
A hand-held umbrella, weighing about half a kg and designed to stop sunlight and not a 100 kg falling body like a human being, would be a bad idea to sky-dive with.  So yeah, you might need something that weighs a bit more than one-half of one percent to get any use out of it.

An emergency parachute, weighing 8 kg, on the other hand, is perfectly capable of slowing said 100kg body down to safe velocities in an atmosphere, despite only weighing about 7.5% of the combined human-parachute system.  Remind me, what is the weight fraction of the Inner Sphere partial wings, again...?

CrossfirePilot

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #104 on: 12 November 2019, 16:11:26 »
  Try watching a sci-fi flick with a friend who's a physicist working for NASA...he was facepalming so much, I thought he was applauding...

Yeah...and that's why I can no longer watch movies about or with: guns, martial arts, airplanes, most anything trying to be contemporary science based.  There is a great distance between suspension of disbelief and completely checking my brain at the door.

Greatclub

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #105 on: 12 November 2019, 16:36:26 »
Since it's so obviously absurd to the core, you shouldn't have any difficulties walking us through the math to determine exactly what the weight and space requirements should be for its performance then, no?A hand-held umbrella, weighing about half a kg and designed to stop sunlight and not a 100 kg falling body like a human being, would be a bad idea to sky-dive with.  So yeah, you might need something that weighs a bit more than one-half of one percent to get any use out of it.

An emergency parachute, weighing 8 kg, on the other hand, is perfectly capable of slowing said 100kg body down to safe velocities in an atmosphere, despite only weighing about 7.5% of the combined human-parachute system.  Remind me, what is the weight fraction of the Inner Sphere partial wings, again...?

It isn't the weight, it's the frivolous surface area compared to the weight&drag of the mech. Look at this.

That is the equivalent of trying to slow your fall with an umbrella, it shouldn't be enough to help steer, let alone glide. Yet the Flamberge 2 and 3 both get benefit out of their wing. Somehow.

Eh, battletech is a simulation of early mecha anime, and its physics engine shows that. Real life need not apply.  edit - i don't even consider that a bad thing.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2019, 19:52:37 by Greatclub »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #106 on: 12 November 2019, 16:42:01 »
Take the wings off and a Flamberge can jump either 120 or 180 meters (depending on whether standard or improved jump jets are used).  And maintain perfect control so that it lands on its feat instead of plowing headlong into the ground.  The wing gives it a whopping thirty extra meters of flight.
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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #107 on: 12 November 2019, 17:12:00 »
It isn't the weight, it's the frivolous surface area compared to the weight&drag of the mech. Look at this.

A picture isn't rules.  If it were, the Warrior would have a Chin Turret.  All that really proves is that the artist had no sense of scale, which should be to the surprise of exactly nobody.

Daryk

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #108 on: 12 November 2019, 17:36:32 »
And here's the obligatory "rules trump art" statement...  ::)

Scotty

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #109 on: 12 November 2019, 17:40:19 »
And here's the obligatory "rules trump art" statement...  ::)

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #110 on: 12 November 2019, 18:07:49 »
It isn't the weight, it's the frivolous surface area compared to the weight&drag of the mech. Look at this.

That is the equivalent of trying to slow your fall with an umbrella, it shouldn't be enough to help steer, let alone glide. Yet the Flamberge 2 and 3 both get benefit out of their wing. Somehow.

Eh, battletech is a simulation of early mecha anime, and its physics engine shows that. Real life need not apply.

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For the record, I suck at math.   xp   I can still see that gluing a kite to an elephant is NOT going to make it better at Jumping!  (I don't think they can jump anyway, but still . . .   :D  )
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RifleMech

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #111 on: 12 November 2019, 19:20:44 »
Elephants can fly.

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #112 on: 12 November 2019, 20:07:41 »
For the record, I suck at math.   xp   I can still see that gluing a kite to an elephant is NOT going to make it better at Jumping!  (I don't think they can jump anyway, but still . . .   :D  )
If your problem can be solved simply by having an artist drawing bigger wings in the fluff work, it isn't a problem.

Colt Ward

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #113 on: 12 November 2019, 21:42:42 »
Besides . . . those wings?  They are VERY glider.  And again, they are not designed to generate lift, merely conserve it.
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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #114 on: 13 November 2019, 06:38:44 »
In Battletech..with enough thrust...


..even a fully loaded Cement Truck can fly.

Art really doesn't apply, which makes things interesting for people want UNIQUE looking vehicles, mechs etc.
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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #115 on: 13 November 2019, 10:03:25 »
If your problem can be solved simply by having an artist drawing bigger wings in the fluff work, it isn't a problem.
Yeah.  Sure.  Whatever.  Draw bigger wings, but ALSO make them cost as much in weight and space AS WOULD BE REQUIRED for them to proved ANY benefit.
To me, Repros are 100% Wrong, and there's NO  room for me to give ground on this subject. I'm not just an Immovable Object on this, I'm THE Immovable Object. 3D Prints are just 3D Repros.

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Colt Ward

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #116 on: 13 November 2019, 10:44:08 »
Yeah.  Sure.  Whatever.  Draw bigger wings, but ALSO make them cost as much in weight and space AS WOULD BE REQUIRED for them to proved ANY benefit.

How much does the webbing weight compared to the person for wingsuits?  How much does a paraglider weigh in relation to the user?

Again, they are not generating lift, merely slowing the fall by using drag.  In fact IIRC plane/jet wings are designed to reduce drag as much as possible so your thrust creating lift is more efficient.  The wingsuits a great example b/c they do not even provide as great a surface area as a paraglider yet allow the user to gain a direction and slow the drop to being survivable even if not as slowed as a chute.
Colt Ward
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brother elf

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #117 on: 13 November 2019, 11:51:05 »
Weather rules? Great.

Complex weather & planetary conditions rules that compound on other weather rules, and make you do math to figure out what they mean? Not such a fan.

What, not enjoying shooting bee-filled gauss slugs off a sinking aircraft carrier in a zero-g sandstorm using advanced dead zone rules? ;-)

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #118 on: 13 November 2019, 12:58:51 »
that sounds like my ideal game

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Re: What are the worst rules in Tactical Operations? And why?
« Reply #119 on: 13 November 2019, 14:09:07 »
Yeah.  Sure.  Whatever.  Draw bigger wings, but ALSO make them cost as much in weight and space AS WOULD BE REQUIRED for them to proved ANY benefit.
Its wings are already 3.5 tons.  You can effortlessly get a much bigger wing (fluff-wise) than the dinky-looking glider one without having to increase the weight by even one kilo, and that's before considering Battletech's advanced materials and composites like endo-steel.(For example, the current fluff "glider" wing has obviously less wing area than say a F6F, despite the F6F's wings at empty weight being certainly lighter).

 

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