Author Topic: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!  (Read 47342 times)

Minemech

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #690 on: 14 September 2023, 13:20:20 »
 There are a variety of reasons why Successor Lords are less accountable than say a Khan. For one thing, the governments of Successor States are far more layered, full of astute and aged statesmen, bureaucrats and advisors from top to bottom. This is one reason why it is difficult to decapitate a Successor State, the extreme majority of governing has little to do with the Successor Lord. Lords may at times be forced to deal with issues at planetary level and so forth, and minor lords themselves can sabotage the work of Successor Lords, but the machine as a whole will continue to function competently. This is not even getting into internal mechanisms of individual states.

rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #691 on: 14 September 2023, 14:52:53 »
A Clan Khan is an autocrat only a point - if you have the ability, the nerve, and the opportunity, you can legally challenge him or her to a physical fight and kill them if you don't like their decisions.  If they refuse this fight from a legitimate challenger they lose face and their honor takes a big hit.

If a Khan's warriors turn on them, they have no power and possibly will be dead.  Their power is by will of the Clan Council.

This also has the effect of making the person who successfully challenged the Khan an automatic frontrunner to replace them, or at least gain a higher respect from the next leader. 



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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #692 on: 14 September 2023, 15:22:59 »
To put it another way, I think that there may be a confusion with superficial democratic trappings and a democracy. https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/trappings

I’d argue that it’s the Houses that have the superficial trappings of democracy, while actually being hereditary autocracies.  Not trying to pick on your faction, but the FWL is a glaring example.  Ostensibly, the FWL is a representative democracy through its parliament.  But practically all the powers of that parliament — executive succession, military decisions, budget decisions, provincial autonomy — have been ceded to the Captain-General through a series a series of laws, including Resolution 288, the Internal Emergency Act of 3030, and the Addendum to Incorporation.  The Lyran and Suns representative bodies similarly ceded all real power to the Archon and Prince even earlier in their history.

Contrast that with the Clans, where there is a functioning, voting council at the top of every caste and additional councils and assemblies practicing direct democracy at every level of Clan society over a whole range of decisions.  If Khan X wants to go to war with Clan Y but Clan Council X does not, Clan Council X can vote Khan X’s proposal down (and further vote to remove that Khan from power as necessary).  If Captain-General X wants to go to war with Successor State Y and the FWL Parliament disagrees, there’s little to nothing they can do to stop the Captain-General from going to war.  They can’t enforce a vote opposing the operation in the first place, they can’t withdraw funding from the war, and they can’t remove the Captain-General from power.

BT is a universe of war.  For the purposes of that universe, if a faction has a voting body that can start or stop a war, I’d argue that’s the measure of whether that faction has a functioning democracy.  If a faction does not have a voting body that can start or stop a war, I’d argue that faction only has the trappings of democracy.

And again, BT fiction isn’t going to focus on parliamentary debates, lobbying congressional committees, and the like.  C-SPAN is boring.  Megalomaniacal warlords are not.  But looking at how the governments are laid out and their workings in the sourcebooks, it’s clear that the Clans are intended to have functioning democracies while the Houses transferred those powers to hereditary autocracies a long time ago.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #693 on: 14 September 2023, 15:38:58 »
A Clan Khan is an autocrat only a point - if you have the ability, the nerve, and the opportunity, you can legally challenge him or her to a physical fight and kill them if you don't like their decisions.  If they refuse this fight from a legitimate challenger they lose face and their honor takes a big hit.

Well there's kind of the rub.  Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan.  And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over.  Probably literally.
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truetanker

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #694 on: 14 September 2023, 15:43:37 »
Prisoner exchange: Eh? Why is this person here? (Demandingly)

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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #695 on: 14 September 2023, 15:57:07 »
Well there's kind of the rub.  Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan.  And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over.  Probably literally.

Joe Average can't really walk up to president's office and argue with him over politics either

Same goes for Johan Average walking up to Archon's palace and doing the same

Potential challengers to a Khan are required to pass the same process as he/she did before taking position of Khan

And if Khan gets challenged and fails then their life is also over. Probably literally as well

It's a very two way street, practicing politics in a Clan literally means being willing to put your life on the line for your political beliefs






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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #696 on: 14 September 2023, 16:22:32 »
Joe Average can't really walk up to president's office and argue with him over politics either

No, but Joe Average can become politically active regardless of their background and potentially reach the point where they can actually argue directly with the president over a new piece of legislation.  The Clans are a caste system and lack of social mobility is one of the key traits of caste systems.
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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #697 on: 14 September 2023, 17:06:50 »
No, but Joe Average can become politically active regardless of their background and potentially reach the point where they can actually argue directly with the president over a new piece of legislation.  The Clans are a caste system and lack of social mobility is one of the key traits of caste systems.

Joe Average over here indeed can

Johan Average and his peers in the Inner Sphere however can't

Social mobility is not a thing in BT universe otherwise rich kids would not be inheriting entire star clusters


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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #698 on: 14 September 2023, 17:48:41 »
Yeah, but we were talking about the Clans and whether or not they're a democracy.  We already knew that the Successor States aren't- the whole hereditary ruling dynasties kind of gives it away.
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nova_dew

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #699 on: 15 September 2023, 01:06:37 »
Well there's kind of the rub.  Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan.  And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over.  Probably literally.

I think anyone theoretically can issue a trial against the Khan, it's just heavily stacked against the challenger if they're not a warrior due to the system, RD at least has a system in place where a champion can be named.   
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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #700 on: 15 September 2023, 01:51:13 »
The Dominion eventually came up with a system, but normally by Clan law only a Bloodnamed warrior can challenge another Bloodnamed warrior.  A warrior without a Bloodname needs a Bloodnamed sponsor to be allowed to do so, per Malicious intent when Vlad needed Elias's backing to be allowed to declare a Trial of Grievances against Vandervan.
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Church14

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #701 on: 15 September 2023, 06:41:33 »


If Captain-General X wants to go to war with Successor State Y and the FWL Parliament disagrees, there’s little to nothing they can do to stop the Captain-General from going to war.  They can’t enforce a vote opposing the operation in the first place, they can’t withdraw funding from the war, and they can’t remove the Captain-General from power.

The fact that the Captain General would get sacked or stripped of power if they cross too many lines is actually a plot beat in Blood of Kerensky. That’s why Hanse resorts to saying he’ll let the Captain General’s  kid die if they don’t get support. The Captain General then accepts only because of the kid. Otherwise he comments about not being able to just do things like Hanse can.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #702 on: 15 September 2023, 10:59:07 »
The fact that the Captain General would get sacked or stripped of power if they cross too many lines is actually a plot beat in Blood of Kerensky. That’s why Hanse resorts to saying he’ll let the Captain General’s  kid die if they don’t get support. The Captain General then accepts only because of the kid. Otherwise he comments about not being able to just do things like Hanse can.

Resolution 288, passed circa 2784, eliminated the Parliament’s ability to censure or remove the current Captain-General “for the duration of the crisis”, gave the Captain-General the power to name their successor, and gave the Captain-General the power to determine when the “crisis” was over.  Needless to say, the “crisis” was still ongoing during the time period covered by BoK.  So either Stackpole didn’t pick up on or ignored Resolution 288 from the FWL sourcebooks, or his (later false) Thomas Marik character is misportraying his situation for whatever reason.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #703 on: 15 September 2023, 11:04:19 »
Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Stackpole's ignored canon and continuity. I can't imagine it's because he was unaware; I know less than jack **** about the FWL and even I was aware of Resolution 288; it's one of the FWL's defining traits.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #704 on: 15 September 2023, 17:42:54 »
The interesting part about reosultion 288 is that it didn't really gave the Captain-General the authority he or she needed. The League was very much still fractured and the member states vied for every little bit they could get. Even 'Thomas Marik' who was one of the best Captain Generals had to step lightly to centralize command & control of the FWLM. And if FM 3067 is to be believed he had to juggle the small worlds against the huge voting blocks to even get the budget for the expansion and upgrade of the League's military. Just look at the TRO's of the LEagues first homegrown battle armor: they needed greater budgets and Thomas had to arm wrestle with parliament for the approval

rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #705 on: 16 September 2023, 06:13:30 »
Well there's kind of the rub.  Only a very small portion of people in the Clan are able to call a legitimate challenge against the Khan.  And if you try to challenge the Khan and fail, your life is over.  Probably literally.

Exactly why I worded it that way.  IIRC only Star Colonels and higher can challenge a Khan.  And during times of war, the Khan can honorably refuse to accept (and even rule out challenges to any other warrior), though everyone will be waiting to see what happens after hostilities die down.

As for the challenger, agreed.  It should be known that it's in the Khan's best interest to kill any challenger who isn't useful politically.  Challenger beware.
« Last Edit: 16 September 2023, 06:15:03 by rebs »
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #706 on: 16 September 2023, 12:23:50 »
Regarding aging, what C:WoK, p. 59 actually says is “The Clans find tasks suitable to the skills of older people,” so if a laborer can no longer swing a hammer or lift boxes, they’ll become responsible for filing paperwork or checking inventory instead.  No one is abandoned unless they refuse to work, and then in that case “you starve” (or join the Dark Caste).
Sudden the idea for a Dark Caste, an older supply clerk, left in "clan service" while supplying what the DC needs out the backdoor
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #707 on: 16 September 2023, 14:41:14 »
Sudden the idea for a Dark Caste, an older supply clerk, left in "clan service" while supplying what the DC needs out the backdoor

Considering that the scientist caste used Dark caste members as bodyguards or guards for facilities there might be more truth to that then you realize. Heck a few sympathetic lower caste member in Air control or so and a Dark Caste raiding force has a much easier time to infiltrate

truetanker

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #708 on: 16 September 2023, 14:49:55 »
Or, erroneously redirect the clan garrison.

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #709 on: 16 September 2023, 17:19:06 »
On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #710 on: 16 September 2023, 18:21:42 »
On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.
Given what left that we know of all the clans who knows those in the Inner Sphere using locals might have it worse, I mean how many Sgt. Bilko do they have. 

And the more they cut down on the individual initiative, the more the warrior class will suffer lack of prep.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #711 on: 16 September 2023, 19:39:04 »
So we got a new story in Shrapnel 14… I mean sorta…. It’s certainly an interesting one.

CJC070

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #712 on: 16 September 2023, 20:57:49 »
On the flip side of that equation, given the events of the Society's uprising, I'd certainly hope that the Clans are much more on the lookout for (and a lot less tolerant of) those sorts of shenanigans now.

Considering the Malthus Confederation is probably stronger than the Malthus family during the succession wars I would state that there are more shenanigans not less.

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #713 on: 16 September 2023, 21:59:59 »
Considering the Malthus Confederation is probably stronger than the Malthus family during the succession wars I would state that there are more shenanigans not less.

Which is kind of crazy to me, given that the Falcons were brutally repressive to their conquered populace well before Malvina Hazen came to power and the Falcons in particular had suffered quite a bit from the Society (and answered it with the Annihilation of their entire scientist caste).
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rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #714 on: 17 September 2023, 01:00:31 »
Somewhere in the JFOZ 3060's...

knock knock

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Voice behind door: Jade Falcon Watch.

Former Lyran citizen: Jade Falcon Watch who?

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #715 on: 17 September 2023, 01:26:01 »
Yeah, that's probably about how they did it.
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rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #716 on: 17 September 2023, 01:40:44 »
It really says a lot that Bears are more subtle than Birds.  At least in this case.
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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #717 on: 17 September 2023, 02:04:37 »
Yeah, well, you ever see a falcon try to sneak up on anything and ambush it?
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rebs

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #718 on: 17 September 2023, 02:21:58 »
Yeah, well, you ever see a falcon try to sneak up on anything and ambush it?

Not really.  But I did read about how a timelapse video filmed in Siberia captured a huge golden eagle attacking a full-grown deer.  It sunk its talons into the deer's back and held on while it tried to escape.  The deer bled out and collapsed.  Part ambush and part brute force.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!
« Reply #719 on: 17 September 2023, 02:57:54 »
Yeah, that's probably about how they did it.

Well at the very least the Falcons were very open on how they deal with "bad elements" in their zone. The TRO 3085 had a small mention about the Jade Falcon police and their armament. Crowd control shotguns aren't exactly subtle right?