Author Topic: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars  (Read 1815 times)

Moragion

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IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« on: 13 November 2023, 08:12:05 »
So, quick question. As far as I understand, in the Dark Age and now IlClan Era, clans are more freely mixing Omnimechs and Battlemechs in frontline formations, no? I suppose the Keshiks are still pretty much 100% Omni, or close, but the rest is more open, and there is no stigma anymore to piloting battlemechs (considering khans like Malvina piloting one).

Is that so? I'm thinking of organizing a few stars, and have quite a few clan battlemechs that will go great.

AlphaMirage

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2023, 08:23:40 »
Even in the Jihad era the Spheroid Clans were building Battlemechs and mixing them in with front line Stars. They had always done so for second-line ones.

Post-War of Reaving the Left-Behind Clans (and even the Homeworld Clans saw a massive drop in Trueborn numbers, you know since they killed so many Scientists) really had no choice but to rely more heavily on freeborns to fill out the Touman's ranks. Even Vlad Ward knew that post-Refusal War and Marthe Pryde was forced to take basically Sibko Cadets into battle on Coventry to bulk out the Falcon's touman.

Most even lost the ability to make Omnis either by attrition or by realizing that you have less need of something that needs to be ready in an hour if you aren't likely to need it that fast for an internal trial. That combined with Clan Sea Fox's mercantilism made Omnis less common in general. A massive loss of Mechanizable Elementals due to losing Homeworld Harjel, production sites, high attrition, and low population also likely hurt even though Twycross' moon exists as one of Omnis greatest capabilities were diminished.

Metallgewitter

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #2 on: 13 November 2023, 09:57:25 »
Depends on the unit though. For example the Wolves concentrated their Omnis in selected Galaxies and gave their other Galaxies the rest (at least that's how I interpret it). Most likely is that Trueborn warriors get Omnis and freeborns the next best second line Mech. whioch imho doesn't mean much at this point. a second line Mech fully equipped with clan tech can take on an Omnimech anytime. Heck that is what the Star Adders did to the Blood Spirits right beforte the Reaving Wars.

tassa_kay

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #3 on: 13 November 2023, 11:22:40 »
So, quick question. As far as I understand, in the Dark Age and now IlClan Era, clans are more freely mixing Omnimechs and Battlemechs in frontline formations, no? I suppose the Keshiks are still pretty much 100% Omni, or close, but the rest is more open, and there is no stigma anymore to piloting battlemechs (considering khans like Malvina piloting one).

Is that so? I'm thinking of organizing a few stars, and have quite a few clan battlemechs that will go great.

The hard data you're looking for is in the Clan Force Deployments in FM:3145, which actually gives Omni percentages for every Cluster, and you're pretty much spot-on: the Keshiks of various Clans (not counting instances like Malvina Hazen's Shrike, etc) and some other command-level units appear to run 100% Omni, with Omni percentages varying wildly in front-line units and almost every second-line formation across all the Clans listing at 0%. Interestingly, the Sea Foxes are the only Clan that do not have a single unit that's 100% Omnis.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #4 on: 13 November 2023, 11:28:37 »
When I was reading up for one of my ghost bear rants, one of the dark age source books mentions with improved capacity for creating omnis front line formations were headed back to Omni first style. Within the ghost bears.

You can look at the later DA era report (field manual maybe…they are so similar), ER:3145 or FM:3145, and they say the experience rating of each cluster, the readiness percentage, and Omni %. You can see in the premier front line galaxies clusters it has gone up from whatever you can imagine it was in early Republic times.
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #5 on: 14 November 2023, 01:59:41 »
I see. But considering that people like Malvina are using a battlemech means that the previous stigma is essentially gone. The fact that the Keshiks are still as close to 100% Omni as possible, I would say is more a remnant of tradition than anything else. There's also the greater flexibility of omnis, but even then I think this is another sign of how the clans in the IS have evolved and changed from the originals.

And from a tabletop game point of view, it gives even more option to use (and lets not mince words here, many clan battlemechs are better than omnis).

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #6 on: 14 November 2023, 02:04:11 »
I see. But considering that people like Malvina are using a battlemech means that the previous stigma is essentially gone.

Well, she was in a totem mech, which is still still has a significant amount of prestige.  It's not like she was leading battles from the cockpit of a Shadowcat II or anything.
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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #7 on: 14 November 2023, 02:33:59 »
I see. But considering that people like Malvina are using a battlemech means that the previous stigma is essentially gone.

Besides what MLO4H said about the Shrike being a totem 'Mech, there's also the fact that this is Malvina Hazen we're talking about here, and she's not going to give a single damn about any "stigma" that might exist. Especially considering anyone in her Clan that's ever faced her in a Trial (with the exception of her brother) has not lived to tell the tale.
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #8 on: 14 November 2023, 06:29:36 »
Well, she was in a totem mech, which is still still has a significant amount of prestige.  It's not like she was leading battles from the cockpit of a Shadowcat II or anything.
Besides what MLO4H said about the Shrike being a totem 'Mech, there's also the fact that this is Malvina Hazen we're talking about here, and she's not going to give a single damn about any "stigma" that might exist. Especially considering anyone in her Clan that's ever faced her in a Trial (with the exception of her brother) has not lived to tell the tale.

Yeah, good point about the totem mechs, totally forgot about them. But I just mentioned Malvina as an example because I'm just reading the novels right now, came first to mind. My point still stands, if you look at other people, like Gottfried Amirault, with a Cygnus, to put another Khan as example. And in the Dark Age novels (so far as I have read) the mix of mechs is pretty obvious. Haven't found a single clan character saying anything wrong about battlemechs.

Losses in the Jihad and the scarcity of the Republic/Dark Age era seems to have molded the clans into a more accepting sort of normal mechs. The stigma seems gone for the most part, although I'm sure there are groups inside every clan that will think otherwise, because those are not the clans if there are no extremists.

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #9 on: 14 November 2023, 06:41:20 »
Hell, the de-stigmatization of non-Omnis amongst the Clans is probably one of the least significant of the changes we've watched them undergo since the REVIVAL days. :laugh:
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #10 on: 14 November 2023, 07:26:29 »
Hell, the de-stigmatization of non-Omnis amongst the Clans is probably one of the least significant of the changes we've watched them undergo since the REVIVAL days. :laugh:

Haha, never said it was the most significant, but it has implications for the tabletop game, giving clan players more flexibility on how to create forces, if they want to keep them as faithful to the canon as possible.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #11 on: 14 November 2023, 08:11:33 »
Also a lot of those characters were introduced in the Dark Ages, which had Omni mechs written out due to game concerns.

More than anything that explains Hazen and Amiraults mech choices.
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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #12 on: 14 November 2023, 21:14:23 »
Haha, never said it was the most significant, but it has implications for the tabletop game, giving clan players more flexibility on how to create forces, if they want to keep them as faithful to the canon as possible.

I never said you did say that. I was making an observation since the topic made me think about it.

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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #13 on: 15 November 2023, 14:40:01 »
Also a lot of those characters were introduced in the Dark Ages, which had Omni mechs written out due to game concerns.

More than anything that explains Hazen and Amiraults mech choices.

Interesting, didn't know that was the cause. The Dark Age sure imposed a lot of things that later developers had to weave somehow into the lore. Considering how the IlClan is looking so far, and the popularity it is getting, I would say they are doing a good job.

I never said you did say that. I was making an observation since the topic made me think about it.



Ok ok, lets table that. But I'm intrigued: What do you consider the biggest change of the Clans since the Revival days? Just one, the main one.

tassa_kay

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #14 on: 15 November 2023, 15:25:06 »
But I'm intrigued: What do you consider the biggest change of the Clans since the Revival days? Just one, the main one.

I don’t think the answer is going to be that simple, since every Clan is different and have experienced different changes and to varying degrees. But I would say that one of the biggest changes would be the existence of the RasDom as an entity, where the Clan has willingly suborned control to its Spheroid population. Another might be the fact that zellbrigen has more or less been abandoned in warfare by most Clans, or at least has taken a back seat to the realities of warfare in the Inner Sphere. Things like that demonstrate huge shifts in thinking for the Clans, certainly far more than the destigmatization of using BattleMechs over OmniMechs.
« Last Edit: 15 November 2023, 20:21:39 by tassa_kay »
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Starfury

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #15 on: 15 November 2023, 19:57:24 »
The IS Clans had to face facts after losing their supply lines to the Homeworlds. You either build the capacity like the Nova Cats, Wolf in Exile, Sea Fox, Jade Falcons and Ghost Bears, you steal it like Clan Wolf and Hell's Horses, or you try to share it with a Periphery state like the Snow Ravens.  Battlemechs were cheaper to build in order to regenerate the toumans, but Omnis popped up here and there before the Dark Ages when they came back as fast as the various Clans could put them together. Dark Age and ilClan era Stars also make far heavier use of tanks and conventional infantry then in earlier eras.

Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #16 on: 16 November 2023, 10:37:13 »
I don’t think the answer is going to be that simple, since every Clan is different and have experienced different changes and to varying degrees. But I would say that one of the biggest changes would be the existence of the RasDom as an entity, where the Clan has willingly suborned control to its Spheroid population. Another might be the fact that zellbrigen has more or less been abandoned in warfare by most Clans, or at least has taken a back seat to the realities of warfare in the Inner Sphere. Things like that demonstrate huge shifts in thinking for the Clans, certainly far more than the destigmatization of using BattleMechs over OmniMechs.

Well, that zellbrigen has been abandoned is something that began to appear right after Operation Revival, so was logical for it to stick into their way of doing things after so long. Still something to do against an honorable enemy, but not something to do in general. Also the adoption of physical combat is another side of that.

The situation of the Dominion is something I don't know much yet, as haven't read any novel yet where it is featured, nor any of the sourcebooks... yet (all in my "to do" list), so don't know how extense that sharing of power is, but can see how any level of power sharing with a civilian government is a great change. Is the Raven Alliance in the same situation, or not to the same level?

tassa_kay

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #17 on: 16 November 2023, 11:40:14 »
Is the Raven Alliance in the same situation, or not to the same level?

The Raven Alliance is quite different, actually. The Ravens lopsidedly hold the power there, and the Outworlders mostly don’t seem to care (only 35% of them even bothered to vote on the referendum to form the Alliance), and the Ravens themselves tend to live separately from them, keeping to their enclaves.
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #18 on: 16 November 2023, 12:46:23 »
Wish I could speed up my reading but barely have time nowadays. Will be interesting to learn all this, and get a better view of the current Era.

Getting back on the subject, and with Starfury comment, do Stars mix mechs, tanks and infantry, or is that only an ad hoc situation? Novels make it a common think, but after readying so many I learned to take everything said there with a grain of salt when it comes to technology, military organization, and such. Also, I guess is mostly a Dark Age thing, and not common from 3145 forward.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #19 on: 16 November 2023, 15:46:03 »
Almost never do they mix at the star level (aside from the nova).

Generally the mixing comes in at the binary/trinary or cluster level.

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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #20 on: 17 November 2023, 03:13:16 »
Almost never do they mix at the star level (aside from the nova).

Generally the mixing comes in at the binary/trinary or cluster level.

I thought as much, but the Dark Age novels present it like a "two tanks, 3 squads of battle armor, an a mech" so many times. Again, I know novels are not very reliable when it comes to technical stuff.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #21 on: 17 November 2023, 05:39:23 »
I thought as much, but the Dark Age novels present it like a "two tanks, 3 squads of battle armor, an a mech" so many times. Again, I know novels are not very reliable when it comes to technical stuff.

All the Dark Age stuff (before the CGL resurgence) covered about 8 years, from 3132-3140. So not a very long time to use as a sample, plus it’s been walked back in CGL sourcebooks and fiction.

Also only one or two clans were actually fleshed out during that time, most are just random mercenary or sub factional groups that have passing knowledge of what it means to be clan. Steel Wolves, Wolf Hunters, Spirit Cats were all exiles and dregs. Only Jade Falcon and later wolf got anything like a not stand alone story.

They also had mechs doing backflips and handstands in those books so…
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tassa_kay

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #22 on: 17 November 2023, 05:57:21 »
Even before the Dark Age/ilClan eras, mixed Stars weren't unheard of.

The Exiled Wolves used Strategic Command Stars (1 Point of ASFs and 4 Mechs or 4 Points of Elementals), the Diamond Sharks used the same set up as a command Star in each of their Clusters, the Goliath Scorpions use composite "stinger" Stars (2 Points of Elementals, 2 ASFs and two Mechs), the Vipers had their ad hoc combined arms Molt Stars, the Ravens use mixed Stars in their R-Teams, the Hellions used mixed-unit Flurry Stars, etc.

Also, mixed-unit Stars would certainly come into play during the bidding process as well.
« Last Edit: 17 November 2023, 06:07:48 by tassa_kay »
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My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #23 on: 17 November 2023, 13:08:14 »
They also had mechs doing backflips and handstands in those books so…

 :laugh: Haven't found that yet, I'm with Flight of the Falcon right now. But can imagine some shenanigans. I still remember the whole "phantom mech" of Morgan Kell.

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #24 on: 17 November 2023, 13:59:14 »
I'm with Flight of the Falcon right now.

I hope you enjoy it! FotF is one of my favorite BattleTech novels of all time.
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My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
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Moragion

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #25 on: 17 November 2023, 15:08:08 »
I hope you enjoy it! FotF is one of my favorite BattleTech novels of all time.

Had only started, but was really interested in reaching the Falcons' novels,  since it is my favorite clan, and when I began to learn about the new era, had a certain fascination for Malvina, as in "lets see if she is as crazy as everyone says". So far it is going well XD

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #26 on: 17 November 2023, 15:24:21 »
Had only started, but was really interested in reaching the Falcons' novels,  since it is my favorite clan, and when I began to learn about the new era, had a certain fascination for Malvina, as in "lets see if she is as crazy as everyone says". So far it is going well XD

This book, and “A Rending of Falcons”, give a much more nuanced take on Malvina than you’ll see in later products. They’re what made me fall in love with her as a villain, because she’s got layers. Plus she’s just fabulous in them.  :laugh:
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My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #27 on: 17 November 2023, 15:36:17 »
Malvina was so much better as a 3 dimensional villain than as the 2 dimensional evil shithead that she was turned into in later years.

My creative writing professor long ago instilled in me the idea that every character has some kind of dignity, no matter who or what they are, and writers should display that (in the spirit of "show don't tell").  But also don't pull punches about the things that they do.  It's a balance, and largely why most people aren't writers, and also why AI won't be replacing the writers of good, nuanced fiction any time soon.
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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #28 on: 22 November 2023, 11:52:17 »
As a Ghost Bear player I HATE mixing Omni’s and standard mechs in a Star because I have so many Elementals. I’d imagine in the canon that’s a similar feeling.

However with COMBINED ARMS so prevalent these days there’s plenty of ways to carry said troops.. even if they’re not as capable as Omni’s. APC’s can be a lot faster (if less armored) and some pack a bit of a punch too.

As far as capability wise… other than that as someone said upthread: second line mechs can be just as good as Omni’s, and QUITE a few of the totem mechs are standard mechs: look at the Orion IIC after all

Nerroth

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Re: IlClan Era - Clan Mixed Stars
« Reply #29 on: 27 November 2023, 10:06:17 »
Per Operational Turning Points: Hanseatic Crusade, most of the Galaxies in the Goliath Scorpion touman of the Dark Age and IlClan Eras use a bespoke Cluster/Trinary organization: only Seeker Galaxy uses the "standard" Clan Cluster/Trinary setup.

Of those, Command Trinries include two BattleMech Stars and a single Composite Star: 2 'Mechs, 2 Points of Elementals, and 1 Aerospace Point.

That said, at the Trinary level, mixed forces are the norm: the exact balance of BattleMech, Elemental, and Aerospace Stars varies depending on the type of Trinary involved.

As for Seeker Galaxy, many of their MechWarriors opt to pilot vintage Star League BattleMechs rather than Clan OmniMechs, even when given the choice, due to their adherence to the Seeker mindset. (Or perhaps since it's easier to make off with the latest batch of isorla when your 'Mech has hands and arms with which to carry it...)