Author Topic: Long Range Insertions?  (Read 4358 times)

Colt Ward

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Long Range Insertions?
« on: 12 July 2018, 14:20:47 »
Mechs, BA and even some vehicles can be dropped from orbit in shells to drop onto a target planet.

But for a more stealthy insertion . . . how long can a mechwarrior survive in a drop capsule?  Can they, like you get in some fiction, be launched from a range that the DS is very difficult to detect?

I know Jake Kabrinski's Elementals flew quite a distance across a system for a boarding action, so I imagine they could be aimed at a planet a LOT easier though they would also need a power source sent with them- or plans for stealing power.

Imagine dropping a company of flashbulbs (or mostly, yes giving in to that mafia) as part of tying down a garrison that could respond to another attack in a different system.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #1 on: 12 July 2018, 14:22:52 »
Mechs, BA and even some vehicles can be dropped from orbit in shells to drop onto a target planet.

But for a more stealthy insertion . . . how long can a mechwarrior survive in a drop capsule?  Can they, like you get in some fiction, be launched from a range that the DS is very difficult to detect?

I know Jake Kabrinski's Elementals flew quite a distance across a system for a boarding action, so I imagine they could be aimed at a planet a LOT easier though they would also need a power source sent with them- or plans for stealing power.

Imagine dropping a company of flashbulbs (or mostly, yes giving in to that mafia) as part of tying down a garrison that could respond to another attack in a different system.

I don't think the drop cocoons provide any life support whatsoever...and why would they?  They're not reusable so they need to be as cheap as possible, and they only normally get used for no more than a couple of minutes to survive an atmospheric at any rate.   So if you were to hypothetically let some drops go from out beyond range that radar could detect the DropShip... how long the elementals and mechwarriors could stay alive drifting through space would be dependent on the life support in their suits and mechs respectively.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 14:25:12 by Tai Dai Cultist »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #2 on: 12 July 2018, 15:06:56 »
the capsules are just shells around the mech, no life support. the mechs themselves though seem to have several days worth of life support, given they can operate on airless worlds and in hostile atmospheres for prolonged periods.

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #3 on: 12 July 2018, 15:41:10 »
The problems are that the drop pods are not stealthy in atmosphere, and you need to not be going too fast when you hit the atmosphere.

So to get to the planet in a reasonable amount of time, you need to be going pretty quick. But a dropship would slow down, you can't in a drop pod. Think bug on a windshield.  Ok, so let's say you loop around a moon and use it to dump some of your excess velocity.

Now your entry vector is the issue. Again, too steep you burn up, too shallow you skip off.

So you get to the right entry vector to land where you want to, at the right angles. Now you are a literal shooting star in atmosphere, being a beacon to those around you. Tons of heat and light.  You will get picked up on radar at this point.  Funnily enough, a dropship stands a better chance, as they could lower their speed to be less of a bright star in the sky.

Orbital insertion mechanics is fun. :)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #4 on: 12 July 2018, 15:47:39 »
Yeah, the life support can be gotten around . . . I used Jake as an example of it being extended, but underwater or deep space efforts in a mech also prove it.

And I agree about the mechanics and how the shells are not stealthy in atmo- you can make them so for the flight in until they hit atmo but after that its all about misdirection.

Basically the 'trope' of 'we are going to disguise you in a meteor shower' for the troops coming in.  Its also a different approach than a dropship coming in so its a different sensor profile.
Colt Ward
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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #5 on: 12 July 2018, 15:50:58 »
Kabrinski didn't need extended life support. As I recall, he only had to fly across a couple dozen kilometers, almost nothing space-wise.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #6 on: 12 July 2018, 15:51:08 »
I'm not seeing much of a need for hoop jumping to achieve stealthy insertions.  A DropShip's conventional approach, atmospheric entry, and landing often goes completely undetected if they're not actively pinging for clearance to land at this DropPort or that one.


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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #7 on: 12 July 2018, 16:37:28 »
A drive plume is detectable at a maximum range of 35 million kilometers (Strat Ops pg. 119), which is over a full day's transit at 1G (Strat Ops pg. 70). And the detectors get a new roll every hour. You are very likely to be seen unless you are taking measures to avoid being spotted. Of course for some planets you can avoid detection by only using the drive while the drop port is on the other side of the planet, so its possible to get much closer. Also, plume can only be detected while the drive is active. So knowing you're there is different from knowing where you are.

Radar can pick up a Dropship at a maximum range of 100,000 km, or 1.8 hrs at 1G. That's within the standard operating time of a Battlemech, and presumably within the endurance of Battlearmor.


*These numbers assume a 1G thrust capacity, and detection is based off being an Aerospace unit.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #8 on: 12 July 2018, 16:57:49 »
Not gonna rehash this same old argument other than to restate that what CAN be detected and in practice what IS detected are not necessarily the same thing.

With regards to this thread:  even if your DropShip approach is detected, there's likely nothing that can be done to prevent your insertion anyway by that time.  But if absolute secrecy is required and even an hour or so head's up is unacceptable...

I'm not sure if dropping from 1.8 hours out is viable.  It's not a matter of endurance, it's a matter of velocity.  I don't know that the rules even govern this, but drop pods don't decelerate... which is kind of the point of hypothesizing a long range drift prior to entering atmosphere.  But if they're traveling at the kind of velocity a DropShip had that far out, it's missing all that braking and may or may not be vaporized on contact with atmosphere absent that braking.

OTOH I suppose if the plan is that the DropShip doesn't actually land, there's probably no reason the DropShip couldn't time its transit so that it hits atmospheric entry speeds at 100,000+ KM away rather than at the actual final destination.  So I guess it's really going to boil down to rule of cool.  It'll work if you/the GM WANT it to work.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 17:09:23 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Daryk

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #9 on: 12 July 2018, 20:16:45 »
For battlearmor at least, I've used Personal Re-entry Units (PRUs) from StratOps to stealthily insert from a bit further out that usual.  As the GM, I installed extended life support and parasails in the BA (Nighthawks for anyone who cares).  The dropship in question was expected, and only fiddled its arrival by a couple of hours, though the BA arrived several hours ahead of schedule (since they were kicked out while the dropship was travelling at a higher velocity).  It all hangs together in my head canon at least.

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #10 on: 12 July 2018, 21:00:13 »
at least with BA (and with the right special rules, Parachute infantry) can be dropped out of Omnifghters/small craft with the tonnage to carry them. the Capellans even created a stealth aerospace fighter post-Jihad for that job.

massey

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #11 on: 13 July 2018, 11:44:01 »
Planets are probably looking for dropship drive plumes.  They're easier to detect and most people who are coming in are just going to use the standard method of deceleration.  So if I've got to remain completely undetected, I'd do things a little differently.

First, I'd give myself an month or so for the journey from jumpship to planet.  I'm not going to aim for the planet itself.  I'm going to aim for where the planet will be in a few weeks.  Let the planet come to me.  At no point will my engines ever be pointed toward the planet.  I'm going to let the planet's natural path around its star bring it to my dropship.

So I leave the jumpship on January 1st.  A normal dropship would speed towards the planet (turning around at the halfway point to slow down) and arrive on January 14.  But I'm not aiming for the normal spot a normal dropship would aim for.  I'm aiming for where the planet will be on February 14, or maybe March 1st, which right now is just empty space.  I'm not going to turn around at the halfway point.  Instead I'm just going to coast for much of the journey (I'm also probably not accelerating at the normal rate -- but all this is lots of math that is too much work for an internet forum post).  In fact I'm not even going to stop at my intended destination.  I'm going to intentionally overshoot it.  Then I'm going to turn around, kick in the engines at more than 1G to bring me to a stop as quickly as possible, then throttle back so that I gradually coast towards my interception point with the planet.

My engines are never pointed at the target world.  I'm always expending thrust away from the planet.  By the time I get in radar range, my dropship just looks like an asteroid drifting through space.  I'm going to launch mechs at the planet as it passes by.  While they're theoretically detectable as they approach and enter atmosphere, it doesn't seem like it should be that hard to mask them as something else.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #12 on: 13 July 2018, 22:43:35 »
honestly the easiest way to sneak onto a world would be to disguise yourself as legitimate traffic. hide in plain sight.

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #13 on: 16 July 2018, 07:32:14 »
honestly the easiest way to sneak onto a world would be to disguise yourself as legitimate traffic. hide in plain sight.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #14 on: 16 July 2018, 09:23:34 »
Sure . . . and BA is easier to throw out the door when doing that- in fact that would probably be the best way to do a BA insertion if they were not going in as support for a group of Omnis.  Mechs out the door like that would be harder but still do-able since they would have to deal with customs on landing.
Colt Ward
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Alsadius

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #15 on: 16 July 2018, 09:33:08 »
My engines are never pointed at the target world.  I'm always expending thrust away from the planet.  By the time I get in radar range, my dropship just looks like an asteroid drifting through space.  I'm going to launch mechs at the planet as it passes by.  While they're theoretically detectable as they approach and enter atmosphere, it doesn't seem like it should be that hard to mask them as something else.

I like the idea, but the geometry is tough. You will be approaching the planet at a significant speed, even if you're willing to take a while, and that speed needs to be shed somehow. You can probably get the burn time down into the hours, which is much less warning to the defenders than days would be, but it's still nonzero. And you can't just kick the mechs out the door as you fly by, because that kind of speed would almost certainly result in them burning up in the atmosphere.

You might do better to see if you can use a moon to mask your burn. If you're in the moon's shadow, you can burn fairly freely, and get close at a fairly high coasting speed while not actually retaining that speed all the way down to the surface.

Colt Ward

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #16 on: 16 July 2018, 09:52:36 »
I thought he was mentioning in regards to not needing a zero-zero intercept with the planet.
Colt Ward
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Alsadius

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #17 on: 16 July 2018, 10:41:37 »
I thought he was mentioning in regards to not needing a zero-zero intercept with the planet.

Problem is, you kind of do. Reentry is tough enough from low orbit, but streaking in at interplanetary speeds is going to mess up even most reentry-capable systems. Moving at tens or hundreds of kilometres per second gives you precious little time to slow down, whether you're using rockets or atmospheric braking to do it. Real spacecraft are moving about 7.8 km/s in LEO and usually hit ~4.5g on re-entry. Assuming that you can handle 15g on re-entry(which is crushing, but generally non-fatal), you can only be moving at 14.2 km/s when you hit atmosphere. From the point of view of interplanetary travel, that's virtually standing still - you need to travel about 1.5 billion km from a jump point to a planet(using Terra as a baseline), so at 14.2 km/s, that'd be over three years. In fact, simply free-falling from a jump point in to the planet will usually get you moving faster than that, due to the star's gravity. There are some ways to trade off g-force for heat on re-entry, so you can mitigate this somewhat, but not enough to let a no-burn-near-planet entry trajectory actually work. You need to burn somewhere, for some period, or you'll get a very brief lesson in the folly of lithobraking.

Colt Ward

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #18 on: 16 July 2018, 11:56:21 »
No . . . what he was saying is that you get a zero/zero with some point in space that is 'behind' the planet on your flight path- think of the DS being tidally locked with the thrust not being visible from the surface.
Colt Ward
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Alsadius

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #19 on: 16 July 2018, 12:12:52 »
No . . . what he was saying is that you get a zero/zero with some point in space that is 'behind' the planet on your flight path- think of the DS being tidally locked with the thrust not being visible from the surface.

That doesn't work. If you've got a zero-zero, you are in the same orbit - you cannot do that from another orbit without some form of thrust at some point. You can have a zero/nonzero intercept(i.e., be in the same place with a different speed) on a freefall trajectory, but in order to move from a dissimilar orbit and match both velocity and position, you must burn(or otherwise accelerate, such as by aerobraking). The laws of orbital mechanics do not permit two freefalling objects to be in the same place with the same velocity and have different trajectories.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #20 on: 16 July 2018, 12:21:09 »
I'm pretty sure all sorts of real world laws of physics don't apply to planetary transits.  Interplanetary space between jump point and planet is certainly not two dimensional as it is in any playable representation we have of the BTU.

As another comment, assuredly the Jump Point to destination transit always was aimed for where the planet will be at the conclusion of the transit rather than any other point, meaning the drive plume always ever was only pointed at the planet until the very last fraction of the transit anyway.

Alsadius

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #21 on: 16 July 2018, 12:49:54 »
A drive plume will be visible from at least half the surrounding sphere, and likely much more. Unless you're burning near-directly towards the sensor, the plume is unlikely to be occluded by your ship, so they will probably see it if they're close enough. Burning directly away from them(e.g., when decelerating) will make it more obvious, but it's not necessary for them to see the lengthy plume.

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #22 on: 16 July 2018, 12:57:15 »
This is why Pirate points are important. Typical jump points are at the north or south pole of the system, out of the planar orbits.  Pirate points are within the plane of the planets, at Lagrange points (points in space where the gravitational forces of all the solar objects are reduced to almost 0), aka: Pirate points.

A close Lagrange point means you could jump in, release your dropship, and have mechs on the ground within a handful of hours.

Yes, you get the jump flare, so they know you are there, and they know a pirate point was used, but you burn in hard and fast and get the job done quick.

Why Pirate points are risky, and only used on systems you have full orbital data on: jump ships must arrive where the gravitational amount is very low. Too much and it won't re-appear, or rip you apart when jumping out. So it is important to know exactly which area qualifies, and this changes with various orbits. So you need "charts", aka: years of solar observation data noting the orbits of the planets and moons.

See this page for info on these points: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Mechanics/lagpt.html
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snewsom2997

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #23 on: 16 July 2018, 12:57:49 »
A drive plume will be visible from at least half the surrounding sphere, and likely much more. Unless you're burning near-directly towards the sensor, the plume is unlikely to be occluded by your ship, so they will probably see it if they're close enough. Burning directly away from them(e.g., when decelerating) will make it more obvious, but it's not necessary for them to see the lengthy plume.

Do a High-G burn cut the engines just outside of sensor range, do your dirty picture run, and then a High G burn to the Jumpship.

I believe the fluff for the Hawk-Eye mentioned this.

You can jump far outside the Minimum safe distance instead of jumping to the Zenith or Nadir, jump twice the distance from them, and off to the side a bit. Next best option is to jump to a Pirate point with something with LFB and then jump back before the defenders get to you. You can also use planets and moon to hide your trajectory.

Colt Ward

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #24 on: 16 July 2018, 14:12:26 »
That doesn't work. If you've got a zero-zero, you are in the same orbit - you cannot do that from another orbit without some form of thrust at some point. You can have a zero/nonzero intercept(i.e., be in the same place with a different speed) on a freefall trajectory, but in order to move from a dissimilar orbit and match both velocity and position, you must burn(or otherwise accelerate, such as by aerobraking). The laws of orbital mechanics do not permit two freefalling objects to be in the same place with the same velocity and have different trajectories.

This is what I get for a short note as I headed off to lunch . . .

Alright, my understanding was this . . . first to properly explain without a diagram I cannot draw on here, we will have to put the DS coming in on the plane of the system.  Burn in towards Earth but not directly to be able to get a partial mask- which depends on the fictional sensors, lol.  You might be able to get a slight angle of thrust to allow the body of the DS to mask most of the plume but like I said that is up to specifics of the sensors.  The DS drifts past Earth either before or after the planet's place in the orbit and once past the sensors of Earth flips to start thrusting back towards the planet which means that it comes to rest relative to Earth somewhere between our orbit and Venus- so a zero/zero intercept point for somewhere between the orbits.

Which does not get into cold-gas jets or other stuff the Capellan ship might be using.
Colt Ward
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massey

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #25 on: 16 July 2018, 14:13:19 »
I like the idea, but the geometry is tough. You will be approaching the planet at a significant speed, even if you're willing to take a while, and that speed needs to be shed somehow. You can probably get the burn time down into the hours, which is much less warning to the defenders than days would be, but it's still nonzero. And you can't just kick the mechs out the door as you fly by, because that kind of speed would almost certainly result in them burning up in the atmosphere.

You might do better to see if you can use a moon to mask your burn. If you're in the moon's shadow, you can burn fairly freely, and get close at a fairly high coasting speed while not actually retaining that speed all the way down to the surface.

I'm not a physicist, so I'm not even going to pretend to try and use the correct language here.  What I'm describing should work though.  So it will be easier for me to explain, instead of thinking of it like a planetary orbit, let's think of it as a clock.

Take a normal wall clock and lay it on its back.  The clock is the solar system, with the tip of the hour hand being the planet you want to land on.  The center of the clock is the sun.  Your ship is going to start at the zenith point of the solar system -- meaning you're basically "above" the center of the clock.  If we start at noon, then the hour hand is pointed at the 12.  If it normally takes 1 hour to go from zenith point to planet, then you would want to aim at the 1 o'clock position.  You would accelerate until you're halfway there, then you turn around and decelerate until you arrive at the 1 o'clock position.  You'll be moving very slowly, relative to the planet.  There's probably some sort of adjustment you're supposed to make to match speed with it, but that is not described in the fiction.  This is the normal way people do it.

Instead of doing it this way, we are going to try and be stealthy.  We are going to aim ourselves at the 2 o'clock position.  The "planet" will get here in another hour, so we've got time to do things unconventionally.  We accelerate towards 2 o'clock, cutting our engines at the halfway point, just like normal.  But instead of turning around and decelerating, we are just going to coast the rest of the way.  Now, when we cross the horizontal plane of the clock (passing through where the hour hand will be in the future), now we turn around and we decelerate.  We are traveling "below" the plane of the clock.  We slow down while facing away from the planet.  Once we hit zero velocity, we keep accelerating and then we spring back up, like a yo-yo.  We then arrive at the 2 o'clock position at the same time as the hour hand.  We have never had our engines pointed at the planet during the whole trip.

I used to do the same thing when I was playing Asteroids as a kid.  Accelerate one way, then turn and accelerate the other way at a slightly different angle.  Except here we'd be using real math.

Now, we wouldn't actually accelerate to the halfway point, just like we wouldn't actually aim for the 2 o'clock position.  The exact measurements, speeds, and angles would be made by a person with a physics degree and not a guy who majored in history in college.  And it will all be complicated by what angle drive plumes can be detected by a planet.  This factor is unknown to us, but the people flying the ship would know it.  Final adjustments to match speed with the planet would make it tricky, but NASA does that stuff right now with probes that don't have mega-powerful engines.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2018, 14:16:35 by massey »

Alsadius

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #26 on: 16 July 2018, 14:46:52 »
So you would burn while close to the planet, you'd just burn exclusively towards the planet(which masks your plume) while you're close? That does work. Depending where you come in, the math might not even be super-complex - if you enter on the plane of the system, a standard Hohmann transfer orbit would do most of the work, and those are super-easy to calculate.

At some point you get so close that parallax is an issue - i.e., the sensors on the north pole and south pole are too far apart for you to mask yourself from both of them at the same time. A burn within a few hundred thousand KM is probably chancy. But if you come in drifting with 1 km/s of relative speed, a 3/5 DropShip at full power can shed the speed in less than a minute. For that matter, it's slow enough that you can probably just use your standard re-entry kit to dump the speed in the atmosphere. So yeah, I can see this working. Probably still a lot easier to fake being a merchantman, but you can do it this way if you need to.

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #27 on: 09 August 2018, 04:53:16 »
That is a tough question . Made harder with the increasing move to combined arms in both very early and the Jihad and after . ICE and Fuel Cell vehicles have a comfortable operating radius of 150 Km from a drop ship and run out of fuel in approx 400km more or less so I prefer to hammer a location with Aerospace assets to provide a window to land or hire a LAM commando unit to do the same . Going all fusion for all combat vehicles increase their cost above attrition unit levels . I can lose 2/3 of my attritian combat vehicles and only lose less than 24 million C bills in hardware more expensive than 1 mech but less expensive than 2.

Still LAM launching in Aerospace configuration with fuel drop pods insert themselves go nape of earth of the earth reconfigure to combat mode and if still capable reconfigure back to Aerospace fighter mode for exfiltration . LAMs are a nitche unit this is it . Misdirection is almost as good as stealth have say 8 LAMs go down to the planet with 12 areospace fighters have the fighters all go NAPE briefly then just have the aerospace fighters pull up and have 8 of them turn on ECM for ghost imaging if the sensor operators are sloppy or a little unlucky will presume they were always just 12 fighters 8 of which have ECM and the 8 LAMs go to a different target. You do not have to be invisible just let them believe they are seeing something else until it is too late .
« Last Edit: 09 August 2018, 08:37:26 by Col Toda »

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #28 on: 11 August 2018, 11:33:41 »
You could pull the old “Raid normally, but then leave a unit behind when you exit stage left” trick.  Let them think they’ve driven you off easily, then weeks later they start suffering guerilla attacks from the company or two you snuck out into the woods while you were pretending to be driven off.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

General308

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Re: Long Range Insertions?
« Reply #29 on: 11 August 2018, 15:17:52 »
Pods would work for this.  This would have been the true role for LAM's though.

 

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