feeling of vehicles in Alpha Strike?

[Elmoth]

Hello all!

Me and a group of friends have tested the AS rules (the kickstarter rules, not the complete ones, mind you) in a pair of games, and we liked the feeling. Now wre are in BT hype mode and have decided to start a mercenary RPG game in the universe, probably in the 3020-3040 period (some changes, but mostly classic stuff).

Now, the thing is that it was decided to go for a LIGHT TANK mercenary command. Being 3 players + game master (me) we decided to go for a trio of (fairly bad) mechwarriors contracted to control remotely some drone tanks (to cut down on the number of human casualties on our side and NPCs needed. The tanks are going to be scorpions (normal and LRM variants), and Harassers basically since we are going for a down-on-their-luck mercenary command. In AS value terms it seems to amount to a paltry 150 points or so to start with.


Now, we will be playing the games in AS, and basically since we do not have the complete rules yet wanted to ask how do vehicles play here. Are they as weak as in classic battletech? Can a force of scorpions work or do we need harder support? In a sense the question is"what is the feel of vehicles in AS?" I trie dot look around the AS forum but was not very successful in finding vehicle threads.

Thanks

Cheers,
Xavi

[jshdncn]

Aside from the motive hits, terrain restrictions, and smaller stature they play the same as mechs. Motive hits aren’t really a problem, your light tanks are unlikely to survive long enough to worry about moving. The terrain restrictions are probably the biggest difference and will be a problem depending on maps.

[RoundTop]

AS is fun, but realize you will blow through units fairly quickly.

Your scorpions take 2 armor/2 structure damage to kill. Unlike regular BT, what side it hits you on doesn't matter, so you can't spread the damage.

Most mechs put out 2 damage, even in 3025, so just a couple hits can kill your tank. You in return are dealing 1 point of damage (Standard or LRM version)

A Jenner for example, does 2 damage out to medium range, and will take 2A/3S in original (w/srm4) config. So you will lose tanks, just budget for it and you will be fine.

Big tanks though become very nice in AS. A standard Behemoth does 6/6/2 for damage, and 7A/5S.

Edit: A small addition, a Jenner is 20PV, a Scorpion is 11PV. The Jenner moves much faster (14 vs 8), high a higher movement mod, and twice the offensive power.   But it has no long range damage, and the same Armor and only 1 more structure as the scorpion.  So 2 Scorpions vs 1 Jenner might be a fair fight. It will take 5 hits from the Scorpions (less if they hit rear) to take out the Jenner, and the Jenner will need 4 hits to take out the tanks.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Tanks, especially small and cheap tanks like scorpions and vedettes, are the pawns of Alpha Strike.  Yes, pawns have power that can decide a game, but probably not when you're using an army made up of nothing but pawns.

If you're using AS to fight out vehicle scale ATOW battles.. I'd suggest that your plucky mercs don't get thrown up against mech forces unless the players are serving as mercenary auxiliaries to some friendly mechs.  Let the friendly NPC mechs do the slugging with enemy mechs, and let your players focus on being the supporting backstabbers/spotters/flankers.

[Elmoth]

Given the feedback I am getting in the diverse tahread I started on this, maybe we will need to do a Capellan Armoured Lance in the end...2 mechs some armor and support...

[glitterboy2098]

generally with light vehicle you need mass deployment.. if being used as the main units in a force, you need to deploy them in company sized lots the way you would deploy mechs as lances. like my 400 PV Militia Battalion.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=48860.msg1128126#msg1128126

2 companies of Scorpions (16 standard 8 LRM), 3 companies of wheeled Mechanized infantry (6 platoons rifle, 3 platoons SRM), and a VTOL demi-company (4 each Ferrets and Warrior's), mostly regular skills.
399 PV. (might be a bit more with the recent revisions, this is an older list)

considering said force would be going up against basically a company of medium to heavy mechs at that point cost, you can see the kind of force disparity involved. i have no doubt that the two forces would match up well.. but i also basically figured i'd be losing at least 50% of the militia every battle on a victory, and all of it on a loss.

since i recently got enough 6mm microarmor tanks to actually try and build this sort of unit, i'll probably try and tweak it at some point and actually assemble a militia force like that.

[Elmoth]

A leopard can cram 12 light vehicles and 2 fighters, or convert the fighter area to other stuff, like the VTOLs. However, as said it is an expensive company. Lots of loses really easily.

Will discuss this with the other players and we will see what we do :) Maybe we will need to add some heavier tanks or something...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

A leopard can cram 12 light vehicles and 2 fighters, or convert the fighter area to other stuff, like the VTOLs. However, as said it is an expensive company. Lots of loses really easily.

Will discuss this with the other players and we will see what we do :) Maybe we will need to add some heavier tanks or something...

You can absolutely play that kind of campaign.

Just be cognizant that any campaign needs to be mostly fights that are stacked in the players' favor... "fair" fight after fair fight eventually means disaster!  (If every fight is fair, you should be losing about 50% of them, and that's disaster no matter what your composition is)

What's tricky about doing light tanks is there's fewer ways to provide easy cannon fodder for them to easily beat than there are for bigger/more 'mech-ier mercs :D 

So long as everyone remembers the setting is predicated on the dominance of the battlemech, you should still be able to have fun playing stompiebait forces.  You'll often have to accept being the supporting cast in battle, but there are ways to keep the spotlight on the supporting cast.

[Scotty]

Vehicles in Alpha Strike are easy to work with and work well.  There's nothing wrong with playing a bunch of tanks and expecting to compete!

The problem is that you're doing the vehicle equivalent of using nothing but a bunch of Stingers and Wasps and calling it a 'Mech Company.  Instead of starting with a whole bunch of tin cans with popguns, I'd suggest giving each player at least one medium or heavy tank with solid armor and a decent offense.  Something like a Manticore, Von Luckner, or Patton/Rommel.  That way you have something that can step up in a pinch, in exchange for risking the loss of your best vehicle.

Regarding campaign play: Alpha Strike's campaign system is brutal for pilot and equipment attrition.  Each MechWarrior/Vehicle Crew makes a single "diagonstic" check at the end of the battle based on the damage they took.  A Skill 4 MechWarrior whose 'Mech was shot out from under them will die on a roll of 2-5, be wounded on a roll of 6-9, and be uninjured on a roll of 10+.  A Skill 4 vehicle crew whose vehicle was destroyed will die on a roll of 2-7, be wounded on a 8-11, and be uninjured only on a roll of 12.  Even if their units aren't destroyed it's still possible to be injured.

Recovering units for salvage is tricky, too.  In a "Regular" unit, when you control the battlefield you can attempt to salvage anything that was destroyed, but you have to roll a 7+ on 2d6 to get anything, and a 9+ on 2d6 in order to actually be able to restore the unit to working order.  Anything lower than that and it'll eventually be scrap.

[Elmoth]

Nice! Glad to know about the campaign play rules. They sound tough but manageable :)

Right now I am more concerned about the fact that we cannot fit half of what the players want in a Leopard than anything else. Rereading the entry for the leopard it would seem that my original estimate of "3 light vehicles per bay" is wrong, and that the version that carries 12 light vehicles also uses the fighter bays. Even turning a very blind eye here and keeping with the "3-4 light vehicles per bay" approach we cannot find the place for heavy tanks or the infantry complement that a lot of people are suggesting. 12 combat vehicles (8 "front line" vehicles + 4 missile boats) plus a pair of both ferrets & recovery trucks and 3 recon vehicles leave no free space here.

I suppose combat loses will free the necessary space for heavier vehicles

[Tai Dai Cultist]

You can address the DropShip problem by having them use a Gazelle rather than a Leopard.

[Weirdo]

Light vees in numbers are SCARY in Alpha Strike. The biggest thing to remember is that in a system where your average fifty-odd tonner will only have five points of armor, even a single point of damage is a solid and worrying hit. In Total War, a Griffin that's hit by two or three Scorpions doesn't care about it unless they get head hits or TACs. Same thing happens in Alpha Strike, half his armor is gone and he's looking like a juicy target for any heavy mech that wants to score some crits. Not exactly lights, but I've seen a single lance of Drillsons absolutely savage a mech company, killing one mech and badly damaging several more. The player characters were in the mechs, and that had been intended to be the easy intro fight to a campaign. You can imagine how the rest of it went.

Good news is, you can genuinely threaten even very large mechs. Bad news is, even very large mechs are threatened by you, and will take you seriously. Be prepared to take losses, or use every trick in the book to minimize/mitigate return fire.

[glitterboy2098]

You can address the DropShip problem by having them use a Gazelle rather than a Leopard.

or just picking one of the lighter cargo dropships and forego the vehicle bays entirely. sure it takes longer to unload the unit, but a light vehicle force isn't going to be rapidly disembarking under fire anyway, which is the main advantage of using bays instead of cargo cubage to carry your equipment. something like a Danais ought to be fairly common and easy to get, and would leave room to grow the unit some, not to mention offer the unit some alternative income during garrison contracts, hauling cargo and passengers around. even the armed Trojan version ought to be fairly common.

[sadlerbw]

I've played all-vehicle forces before at home, but that is just playing with my kids. However, it can work. The motive crits matter, but things die so fast in Alpha Strike that it didn't hurt as much as I expected. Just like any AS game, assume that lots of your units are going to get blown up even if you win, and you will be fine. Fast hovers can be just as deadly as fast mechs, and there are certainly some larger, but not high-tech, tanks that can take a beating. Drillsons and Pegasai (Pegasuses?) are solid units, and I won't turn down a Demolisher or a Schrek either. Going a bit higher-tech: SM1's and Cizins? Yes please! Lots of fun goodies in the class of light, fast vehicles as the timeline moves on.

Just try to stay away from using too many 'light tanks' like scorpions and Hetzers. They are both slow and low health so they tend to die in disproportionate numbers. This is especially true because vehicles can't have partial cover in AS. Light hovers are fine, and slower units with more than four or five pips of health are not as prone to random lucky shots killing them on turn one or two. At least with something like a Goblin, when you get plinked with a lucky hit or two at long range, you aren't dead! Hunters are...marginal. If you stay back and use indirect fire they can survive pretty well despite being slow and a bit weak. However, if you are going to do that, LRM carriers are better at it and only cost 4PV more each. So, I guess I'm saying if you want a light tank force, go with lots of hovers and expect a bunch to blow up every game. Otherwise, add some not-light units if you can justify it, and they might have a shot at surviving.

[nckestrel]

If you can "spend" a bit more, Hunters and Strikers are pretty good.
More speed, making them harder to hit.  Bumping up to 2 damage. 

[Elmoth]

It is our RPG. We can do whatever we fancy :) We were trying to come up with a good not so well off mercenary command though, not a top rating Merc unit. This is why there are less optimal choices there.

Will try to mix and match more. This weekend will discuss options with the  group. Thanks for the suggestions and insights into AS and the project everyone. Extremely helpful stuff!!!

Cheers
Xavi

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Depending on the Era, you can set up a pretty gnarly C3 network all in small vehicles.   C3 is great, but it's best of all in situations where you don't have to pay PV for it :D

Check out this list for canonical C3M tank units.  The Skulker sounds particularly appropo for your company.  And of course, if you don't like these canonical options there's the wide wide world of custom units!

[StingerTheRaven]

We were trying to come up with a good not so well off mercenary command though, not a top rating Merc unit.

Note that in Battletech, mercenary units are generally only mercenary units because they offer something that local planetary defenses cannot. They don't have to be rich noblemen, or even of middle-class income, but in order for them to get hired they generally need to be strong enough to ward off pirates, which a force of all Scorpions cannot really do. Just look at the average contractors hiring you for proof of this.

With this in mind, I'd strongly suggest you look at units of 25PV upward. At this PV minimum, you'll get fine bricks like the Schrek, whose 8 health means it can tank one shot from even the very biggest guns 3049 has to offer; the Burke, which provides an extra-nasty long range punch; and the Demolisher, a treaded Hunchback if there ever was one.
If speed is more your style, then you can't go wrong in the Drillson, which mixes Hovercraft speed, medium 'mech firepower, and enough health to soak an AS7-D hit, if just barely. If you work with infantry often, consider a Maxim, which offers the same performance with an infantry bay shoved in for good measure, at the expense of 2 inches of movement.

Artillery offers the one avenue where tanks aren't merely roughly equal to their legged brethren, but in fact vastly superior; in 3049 especially, tanks are, in fact, the only vehicles that carry true, area-of-effect artillery systems. The Marksman or Chaparral offer solid options at an affordable price.

In case you wonder why I focus so much on health; 5 damage at any range is a fairly common number for several common units in Alpha Strike, namely the Hunchback 4G. Additionally, most cheaper units, namely those at your price range, will only do 2-3 damage; not exactly a glancing hit, but not enough to 2-shot most of the units above. Or, put simply; because having 6 health means your tanks will actually see more than one battle.
Hope this helps.

[Elmoth]

It does. Thanks for the feedback. Tomorrow we have the first session. Th IIIe characters will be dropped in the thick of the action directly when they are still local militia, no previews. Let's see what happens there :) I have assigned them to 2 different companies, one recon unit and an artillery unit. My idea for tomorrow it to have both of them to be hit by an enemy flanking force of fast hovers and recon mechs. Later they will find that they are being reported as destroyed (when quite a few of them are not...).

We will be playing a somewhat gimped game since we do not have alpha strike yet, only the quickstart rules. Since it seems there will be an updated edition of the rules, we will be waiting to get it.

The damage / HP is important for sure. Lets see what they chose to do. 

[sadlerbw]

In case you wonder why I focus so much on health; 5 damage at any range is a fairly common number for several common units in Alpha Strike, namely the Hunchback 4G. Additionally, most cheaper units, namely those at your price range, will only do 2-3 damage; not exactly a glancing hit, but not enough to 2-shot most of the units above. Or, put simply; because having 6 health means your tanks will actually see more than one battle.

Minor quibble: the HBK-4G does 4/3/0 for damage. Of the 4-series hunchbacks only one does 5 damage, and that is the 4P, and only at short range. In fact, of all the hunchback variants, only I’ve other does 5 damage, the 5P, with a 5/5/0 damage profile. Most hunchbacks are 4/3/X or 3/3/X. I would say three is the ‘magic number’ for pre-clan units. By that token, 4 and 7 are, in my opinion, more important breakpoints for how many hits a unit will expect to survive. This is part of the reason I like the Gunsmith so much more than the Dasher: 4 health instead of two. Anyway, once you get to the clan era, that ‘magic number’ does go up to 5 thanks to clan weapons, but before 3050 I use 3 as my average damage from a single hit.

I agree with the idea, I just use a different magic number than you.

[glitterboy2098]

i would say that "3" is the magic number actually. because there are a lot of units that can generate a 3/3/# damage profile in all eras.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Yep.  3 is the "Thud" standard that is the (un)official yardstick for damage on this forum :D

[Elmoth]

Got it. Thanks. So 4 and 7 total hit points are the "magic numbers" for survivality. Ok.

It goes along the lines of what I was going to put on the table on their side: hunters for the artillery detachment (122, speed 10, 5 HP --> can be converted to a crude Myrmidon version later on: A 321, 10, skirmisher tank with 7HP) and Saracens and Pegasus for the mobile group (Saracen is 121, mov 16 and 6HP; Pegasus 220 or 330 depending on version. Same movement and 5HP). The hovers are not that amazing, but they can be difficult to hit (+3) moving 16" so I guess that should be something in the favor if I do not go overboard with the opposition. Infantry will come in standard heavy Hoover APCs (3HP), so I'd better not put many things with a striking power of 3 or they will be rapidly toasted. There will be a couple of spotting VTOLs as well.

For what you are saying their vehicles will be in the low end for hitting power. Not a big problem, but something to consider when putting enemies in front of them :)

[Charlie Tango]

One other thing to look at on light tanks is the SRM Scorpion tank variant.  Goes from the 1/1/1 of the standard to 2/2/0.  Couple of those can really ruin an enemy's day.

[Elmoth]

Back home.

We had a blast! Massive engagement of armoured units with a few mechs. The players were all in playing their respective commands with glee and criticising each other through the radio of their vehicles in character, specially when a recon/medium mech unit flanked them out of nowhere. A great game and session where they decided to leave the planet and become mercenaries. If they are shot so much so usually by so many different factions as they are being a militia unit near Terra, the should be paid more and choose WHO shots at them. Welcome to Merc life.

Now, they one shot a vindicator in their pre-mercenary battle, so the unit composition might be somewhat different than originally envisioned...

Vehicles can go head to head with medium mechs. Heavier mechs can be more problematic, but medium mechs are manageable for sure.

Will try to start a thread in the unofficial stories section I think.

Cheers
Xavi

[Descronan]

Since you are doing this for an RPG instead of tactics, I recommend giving your merc group some bonuses for being the heroes. Look at the Variable Damage optional rules from the Companion. Let your PCs do full damage, but use variable damage for any attack against them. This will simulate "hit points" or some heroic immunity. Also, you may want to allow the PCs to get bonus critical hits on attack rolls of 12. Don't forget that you can also do upgrades to the unit. Allow them to get some bonuses like installing an ECM, Active Probes, extra armor, or AMS. You can use the custom card maker on the masterunitlist.info tools section to create custom cards for their units.

Like you said, it's your game so you're free to modify it how you like.

[Elmoth]

That is certainly an option. However, my playuers do not like when they andf the rest of humankind have different rules of physics applied to them (maybe this is why a lot of the time then end up fighting each other, just to be sure...) so I do not know if they would like this change.

"bonuses" in the first game were puting them against surmountable odds. 500-ish pointds for them vs 200 enemy points. It was an ambush escenario, but still. We will see what happens later on, but "heroics" can be an option. Knowing them, it should be re-labelled as "villainy points", though :)

[Joel47]

or just picking one of the lighter cargo dropships and forego the vehicle bays entirely. sure it takes longer to unload the unit, but a light vehicle force isn't going to be rapidly disembarking under fire anyway, which is the main advantage of using bays instead of cargo cubage to carry your equipment. something like a Danais ought to be fairly common and easy to get, and would leave room to grow the unit some, not to mention offer the unit some alternative income during garrison contracts, hauling cargo and passengers around. even the armed Trojan version ought to be fairly common.

Recon: "Sir, we have eyes on their dropship. It's unloading vehicles, over."
Command: "Roger. Query vehicle count, over?"
Recon: "Twelve so far. Still going, over."
Command: "Keep counting, over."
<ten minutes later>
Command: "Recon got that vehicle count for me, over?"
Recon: "...Still counting, and we're running out of digits, over."

[Elmoth]

Now I have a mental imge of the guys unloading the vehicles from one door, making a detour and reloading them from the back of the dropship for continuing with the disembark cue. Just to annoy enemy scouts.

TARDIS Battletech!

[glitterboy2098]

Recon: "Sir, we have eyes on their dropship. It's unloading vehicles, over."
Command: "Roger. Query vehicle count, over?"
Recon: "Twelve so far. Still going, over."
Command: "Keep counting, over."
<ten minutes later>
Command: "Recon got that vehicle count for me, over?"
Recon: "...Still counting, and we're running out of digits, over."

you laugh, but you can fit one of my "Iron Tide" Militia Battalions into a Trojan with 620 tons to spare.. some of which would go to the food, water, and air to keep the 308 combatants alive on the way to and from the planet.

if you really wanted to be mean, a Mammoth has 8000 tons of cargo. enough for six such battalions plus their logistics.. one dropship dumping two combined arms light regiments in one go could take awhile to unload, but would be nasty once deployed.