Mech design decisions that make no sense

[Liam's Ghost]

I've always worked from the assumption that the one shot launchers (and the wardog in particular) were a product of corporate bureaucracy. The advertising guys wanted to market their mech as having short range missile capabilities without any of the risk of ammo explosions.  :D

At best the improved one shot launchers should have been the standard version. The writers even acknowledged this with the humorous fluff text in the Battlemech Manual.

“After decades of research, we have finally discovered muzzleloading LRMs"

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OS Launchers are kinda wonky due to meta.

On one hand, they were always best as a weapon for fast hit and run units... the kinds of things that shouldn't be sticking around for more than one attack run anyway even if they survive the initial attack... primarily conventional fighters but also certain styles of VTOLs and hovers.

On the other, this kind of hit and run firepower has a plausible role for a Mech in the context of the decline of the Succession Wars... you'd WANT one shot weapons on your scouts so as to encourage them to not stick around for slugfests when mechs are so hard to replace. The rub for OS weapons is Rocket Launchers are what you should be using, but the real-world introduction date for RLs makes it awkward to retcon-in such variants canonically, and they'd displace OS Launchers if you did.

[Liam's Ghost]

On the other, this kind of hit and run firepower has a plausible role in the context of the decline of the Succession Wars... you'd WANT one shot weapons on your scouts so as to encourage them to not stick around for slugfests when mechs are so hard to replace. The rub for OS weapons is Rocket Launchers are what you should be using, but the real-world introduction date for RLs makes it awkward to retcon-in such variants canonically, and they'd displace OS Launchers if you did.

Humorous aside, primitive rocket launchers are available in all eras, including the succession wars. It's only the perfected Marian version that's limited to after 3064.

Of course, in addition to the to-hit penalty they also take a minor cluster hit penalty, so their utility is somewhat under question.

[massey]

I accept the OS SSRM-4 on the Daishi C: the mech is completely crit-packed and would have required extensive reworking for a different weapon.  But that's about it as far as mechs go.

By far the worst One Shot launchers go to the War Dog: there is absolutely no excuse for using two One Shots when you could have used two standard launchers and a ton of ammo for the same tonnage.  And speaking of the War Dog, it absolutely didn't need 5 tons of Gauss ammo.  An extra ton of armor or another laser would have been so much better.

I'm fine with the War Dog's gauss ammo supply.  I think it's actually one of the more realistic things.  A lot of mechs are built for tabletop performance -- they have enough ammo for one game of Battletech.  The War Dog has enough for multiple engagements before reloading.  Not only that, but it can afford to take shots at high to-hit numbers.  That extra ton of gauss ammo is far more useful than another medium laser, because it means 8 more rounds of firing that 15 point weapon.

[massey]

Humorous aside, primitive rocket launchers are available in all eras, including the succession wars. It's only the perfected Marian version that's limited to after 3064.

Of course, in addition to the to-hit penalty they also take a minor cluster hit penalty, so their utility is somewhat under question.

They may be available in 3025 now, but they weren't available to 3025 in 1987.

[Atarlost]

Damage-per-ton doesn't really mean all that much. The outcome of BT games comes down to dice randomness far more often than a slight statistical disparity between units unless you make the fights utterly one-sided. Especially in 3025. A PPC may be 17% more efficient but that's basically within the margin of error for a lance-on-lance encounter.

The AC/5 is underpowered, but it isn't grossly so. Any difference that only shows up over large sample sizes is too minor to be trifled with in a game like BT where balance is essentially by gentleman's agreement.

I've lost plenty of matches, to all manner of absurd things, but never one that I could blame on an AC/5.

Small statistical advantages become enormous when you're building thousands of mechs to serve for centuries.  The Shadow Hawk served for over two centuries before being replaced with an improved version in Royal Command.  It continued to be used by regular SLDF formations.  Add on all of the other designs that should never have been fit with AC-5s and the stupid stacks up ever higher. 

Remember, in 2550 there was not a shortage of energy weapons or LRMs.  Those were the days when you could just offer to buy something and the manufacturer could just take out a loan (probably government backed if it was to supply a military contract) to build another factory if they couldn't produce enough already.  In that environment the AC-5 should have gone the way of the tank rifles.  If you plot armor the AC-5 to the lostech era when factories are irreplaceable from there its survival until the Helm Renaissance can be justified, but they should never have survived the Star League. 

Anything from the Star League or Terran Hegemony post-2460 should be using something else.  Certainly anything that tracks heat.  By 2550 designing a new mech or vehicle with an AC-5 makes no sense.  They've been obsolete for ninety years.  That would be like invading Afghanistan with tanks mounting the same gun as the Mark IV. 

[Liam's Ghost]

They may be available in 3025 now, but they weren't available to 3025 in 1987.

Neither were standard rocket launchers, or standard one shot missile packs for that matter. What's your point? The retcon Tai Dai Cultist was mentioning has already been made, awkward or not. 

[Colt Ward]

They may be available in 3025 now, but they weren't available to 3025 in 1987.

Sad thing is we will not see any new RS with the prototype RLs on any 3025 designs . . . even in cases where it could make sense.  Love to get a PXH with no MGs or LL, just another ML or two and fill the rest with RL10PP.  Ideal for visiting a Stalker.

[Daryk]

*snip*
The rub for OS weapons is Rocket Launchers are what you should be using, but the real-world introduction date for RLs makes it awkward to retcon-in such variants canonically, and they'd displace OS Launchers if you did.

If you make that change, the question becomes "what OS launchers"?

*snip*
That would be like invading Afghanistan with tanks mounting the same gun as the Mark IV. 

Sadly, that would have worked about as well as doing it with modern tanks.

[Liam's Ghost]

Sad thing is we will not see any new RS with the prototype RLs on any 3025 designs . . . even in cases where it could make sense.  Love to get a PXH with no MGs or LL, just another ML or two and fill the rest with RL10PP.  Ideal for visiting a Stalker.

Says who? We eventually ended up with a Blazer armed Zeus, a communications equipment packing Cataphract, an Ultralight Flea, and a fuel cell and light rifle equipped J. Edgar among others after that stuff was codified in Tactical Operations, and the only reason prototype rocket launchers are so widely available is that the authors kept back-dating them by slapping them on earlier and earlier designs (first in operation klondike, then reunification war, then finally all the way back to Primitives 1).

[Liam's Ghost]

If you make that change, the question becomes "what OS launchers"?

Even more humorous aside: the prototype rocket launcher is actually the only one shot missile type canonically available during most of the succession wars. The standard one shot launchers are actually lostech.

Ancient Star League secrets.  ;D

[Daryk]

Heh... I like the cut of your jib... but you already knew that...  ;D

[Hellraiser]

The Goliath 3M is one of those where I'm at a loss as to why they'd give it an extra ton of machine gun ammo, but only have a single ton of gauss rifle ammo. 

Unless you don't expect to actually fight other mechs, I don't see why you'd consciously choose to allocate the ammo that way.  Now maybe the Goliath is used for anti-insurgency work, and it's supposed to stomp around shooting at everything that moves.  If you really only need the gauss to take out the occasional light tank, that might be enough.  A 15 point hit is enough to kill a Scorpion tank from the side in one shot.  So the 3M could function as a low intensity warfare specialist, where you don't really expect to see it take on Battle Value balanced opponents in any serious way.  It could also be good at assaulting an entrenched position, blasting apart a bunker or fortified wall as it approaches, and then standing there and gunning down large numbers of infantry.  Still, if that's the case I don't know why you'd bother to upgrade it over the PPC version.

At 200 shots per ton.   Even an AI specialist doesn't need 2 tons.   There literally is NO excuse for using that ton as MG ammo.
I'm not even saying it HAD to be for Gauss (though that would be logical).
LRM ammo,  Armor,  Artemis,  a Medium Laser.     But more MG ammo????  Indefensible IMHO.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

They may be available in 3025 now, but they weren't available to 3025 in 1987.

Neither were standard rocket launchers, or standard one shot missile packs for that matter. What's your point? The retcon Tai Dai Cultist was mentioning has already been made, awkward or not.

Well, the retcons largely haven't been made.  My point you're alluding to is if they were, they (probably) wouldn't be using the OS tech... which is why I said OS tech on mechs was made wonky by meta.

[Hellraiser]

The SRM-4 OS on the Quickdraw has to be my pet peeve: 2.5 tons for something that will only get used ONCE in a battle, if at all, and won't do all much even in the event that it does hit.  For a half-ton more, they could have made it something useful, or else replaced it with a single SRM-2 and a ton of ammo and at least made it semi-useful, even though far from optimal.  Machineguns and a half-ton of ammo would have been an improvement, seriously.

That is another one that is inexcusable.
I'm not even going to complain about putting on a OS launcher on a unit.
Sometimes there is a reason for it.
The DireWolf mentioned below is a valid use of one.
Add a small laser to the damn thing but don't gimp the already questionable close range loadout!
I mean, you add CASE but then remove 1 of the 2 tons of ammo.   /BOGGLE!?!?!?!


I don't care for the Hunchback-5M, but that is another one where I can at least try to wrap my head around the decision.
Give it CASE, good.   Give it AI ability with SPL,  good.
I'm not sure I'd have sacrificed the AC20 Ammo to do that by any means.  But I can see where someone might say the 5Ms were going to Urban defense units close to resupply & no enemy unit will survive 5 shots from an AC20 anyway.
Not that I agree, but I can at least TRY to understand the reasons for such bad decisions.

The Goliath & Quickdraw not so much.   And really the Hunchie should go in there too but it has 3 improvements for 1 mistake so I'm cutting it a tiny bit of slack.

[Hellraiser]

Small statistical advantages become enormous when you're building thousands of mechs to serve for centuries.  The Shadow Hawk served for over two centuries before being replaced with an improved version in Royal Command.  It continued to be used by regular SLDF formations.  Add on all of the other designs that should never have been fit with AC-5s and the stupid stacks up ever higher. 

Remember, in 2550 there was not a shortage of energy weapons or LRMs.  Those were the days when you could just offer to buy something and the manufacturer could just take out a loan (probably government backed if it was to supply a military contract) to build another factory if they couldn't produce enough already.  In that environment the AC-5 should have gone the way of the tank rifles.  If you plot armor the AC-5 to the lostech era when factories are irreplaceable from there its survival until the Helm Renaissance can be justified, but they should never have survived the Star League. 

Anything from the Star League or Terran Hegemony post-2460 should be using something else.  Certainly anything that tracks heat.  By 2550 designing a new mech or vehicle with an AC-5 makes no sense.  They've been obsolete for ninety years.  That would be like invading Afghanistan with tanks mounting the same gun as the Mark IV.

There is no way to make energy weapons or LRMs fire Flak ammo however.
Sometimes ACs have a use.

[Hellraiser]

The standard one shot launchers are actually lostech.

Ancient Star League secrets.  ;D

They are?????

Where is this from?

[Hellraiser]

the authors kept back-dating them by slapping them on earlier and earlier designs (first in operation klondike, then reunification war, then finally all the way back to Primitives 1).

Hmm,  Now I'm pondering what units I feel would make good Prototype-RL units.

I think some of the actual RL Marion refits in the late 60's would work as 3025 too.
The Locust, Stinger, Commando, & Firestarter would translate over well. 
The Karnov gunship model would still be an amazing strike & retreat unit.
The J.Edgar screams to use RL's for the SRMs.  Possibly the Pegasus too.
The Lightning would be nice too.
Really anything light & fast.
And of course external use on fighters.

[Liam's Ghost]

They are?????

Where is this from?

Interstellar operations codified it by listing them as extinct in 2800 and rediscovered in 3030. But the narrative was already in place, with one shot launchers being explicitly introduced as star league technology in TRO 2750 and not appearing on a  non-star league mech until TRO 3050.

Though, all joking aside, I'm betting it's less "we don't know how" and more "we don't know why".

Okay, maybe not all joking aside. It's still pretty funny. "Hey, if the Star League did it, they had to be on to something, right?"

[Hellraiser]

It doesn't rank up there with the Goliath MG ammo,  but I really felt the mixing of SRM launchers on the Commando in 3050 was a bit odd.

Something like 3-4 Streak-2s fed by 1 ton of ammo & a single MPL in the LA would have been a bit more logical.

[massey]

Perhaps if the Goliath were expected to encounter lots and lots of infantry, in relatively small sized units.  Like a regiment of infantry, broken down into squads.  That would be 100+ squads, and let's say they're hiding somewhere in a town or a forest or something.  The Goliath may have to go in and root them out, one at a time.

Let's say the infantry don't attack in the conventional sense that we're used to in the board game.  Instead it's more like an RPG, where the GM tells the player "Okay, another hour goes by.  You think this village is clear.  Make a sensor systems roll."  "I rolled a 9."  "Alright, as you pass by this adobe hut, your sensors key in on a weapons cache inside.  You detect some sort of movement as well.  There are a half dozen people inside that building."  "Okay, I light them up with both machine guns.  I'll fire for about 30 seconds straight to make sure I got everybody."

It could work in a more narrative style of play, where you aren't just trading damage with enemy units.  It's the ED-209 method of urban pacification.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That would be a very odd use for an extremely rare assault mech.

[massey]

That would be a very odd use for an extremely rare assault mech.

Maybe that's why it's rare. :)

But really I think that's what a lot of garrison duty is.  I'm thinking of videos I've seen on YouTube of military action in the Middle East.  There's a lot of "somebody's shooting at us from way over there."  And then they shoot back for a while with a machine gun before saying "did we get him?"  "I dunno, but nobody is shooting at us now."

Now personally I like Battletech better as cinematic combat, and I'm on record above as thinking that the Goliath decision is a real head-scratcher.  But I can't resist playing devil's advocate.

[mmmpi]

At 200 shots per ton.   Even an AI specialist doesn't need 2 tons.   There literally is NO excuse for using that ton as MG ammo.
I'm not even saying it HAD to be for Gauss (though that would be logical).
LRM ammo,  Armor,  Artemis,  a Medium Laser.     But more MG ammo????  Indefensible IMHO.

What?  You're saying your two machine guns can't burn through 34/58K rounds(if by weight/fire rate) in a standard game lasting all of 2-3 minutes in game time?   ;D

[Sartris]

What?  You're saying your two machine guns can't burn through 34/58K rounds(if by weight/fire rate) in a standard game lasting all of 2-3 minutes in game time?   ;D

If you enter the Konami code and  jam the trigger super hard, you can quadruple your rate of fire

I thought I could get through a ton with a piranha but the thing usually dies first

[The_Caveman]

Maybe that's why it's rare. :)

But really I think that's what a lot of garrison duty is.  I'm thinking of videos I've seen on YouTube of military action in the Middle East.  There's a lot of "somebody's shooting at us from way over there."  And then they shoot back for a while with a machine gun before saying "did we get him?"  "I dunno, but nobody is shooting at us now."

Now personally I like Battletech better as cinematic combat, and I'm on record above as thinking that the Goliath decision is a real head-scratcher.  But I can't resist playing devil's advocate.

For counter-insurgency, wouldn't you want an assault 'Mech for a show of force? Guerrillas might feel like they had a chance against a few Stingers and Locusts, but an 80-ton monster trashing their villages might be demoralizing enough that some of them would surrender outright.

Then there's the fact that quads are unpopular with pilots in-universe. A Goliath isn't exactly an in-demand ride and it's a weak frontline combatant, may as well dispatch it to besiege the Dirtball-Cong.

[Kit deSummersville]

The Goliath 3M is one of those where I'm at a loss as to why they'd give it an extra ton of machine gun ammo, but only have a single ton of gauss rifle ammo.

I believe it only got one ton because they were working with the 15 shots/ton rule initially from TRO 2750 and it wasn't corrected before TRO 3050 went off to print.

[Luciora]

My print of 2750 says 10 shots per ton.  There's an even more secret star league version of the gauss that carried 15 shots?  What else was Comstar hiding from us?!?

I believe it only got one ton because they were working with the 15 shots/ton rule initially from TRO 2750 and it wasn't corrected before TRO 3050 went off to print.

[Kit deSummersville]

Was it 10? I'm no Roosterboy these days...

Whatever it was, that's probably one of the culprits.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ten is better than eight, but that still feels pretty light on ammo given the sheer number of mechs in 3050 that only pack a single ton for their GR. I can see it for some of the Clan mechs since they're not supposed to be for large-scale battles anyway, but not the Inner Sphere machines.