Author Topic: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs  (Read 5465 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #30 on: 18 May 2019, 16:32:05 »
Sure, and yes with that information you could look it up . . . but its something worn on the wrist as imagined from the 90s.  Its not exactly going to have the storage of a 2010s thumb drive.
Colt Ward
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Maingunnery

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #31 on: 18 May 2019, 16:35:29 »

Even with the Clans I  can imagine that they don't want each codex to be a massive potential intelligence leak.

However the codex often survives beyond the Warriors death, so I think that they prioritize durability above storage capacity.
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deathfrombeyond

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #32 on: 19 May 2019, 03:42:53 »
So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?
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Two Guns Blazing

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #33 on: 19 May 2019, 03:45:46 »
So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

It would be viewed as dishonourable to face your enemy without your stated strength...I feel the opposing Clan force would feel insulted if you did not replace the warrior...

deathfrombeyond

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #34 on: 19 May 2019, 04:08:32 »
It would be viewed as dishonourable to face your enemy without your stated strength...I feel the opposing Clan force would feel insulted if you did not replace the warrior...

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TigerShark

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #35 on: 19 May 2019, 11:00:31 »
So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?
Yes. Unless it's a freeborn warrior replacing a trueborn, in which case most Clans would feel that's something important to state. But that's another situation of "it's not Clan law, it's Clan custom." You're free to field whatever you like. If your opponent isn't strong-enough to defeat you, they're going to expose themselves by complaining in Clan council.
What would they say, honestly? "My opponent was too skilled! We should have had an easier fight! We demand a Trial of Grievance!"?
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #36 on: 19 May 2019, 18:02:24 »
So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?

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Sharkapult

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #37 on: 19 May 2019, 19:03:58 »
So, here’s a related question.

Let’s say that’s the bids are finalized....but one or more of the warriors is incapacitated. (Illness, whatever)

How much allowance would the clans allow in such a situation? Do you think a substitution might be allowed?
I think it would depend on the whole bid. You can call in more forces based on your cut downs and what you initially bid right? If I was your opponent I would not allow substitutions without a loss of honor.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #38 on: 20 May 2019, 09:09:07 »
Yeah, and no warrior is going to drop for anything less than a broken spine.
Colt Ward
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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #39 on: 20 May 2019, 10:28:57 »
Star Commander Elway is doubtful with a sore hamstring and Point Commander Marino is probably with turf toe.
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skiltao

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #40 on: 20 May 2019, 12:02:48 »
From the bidding scenes I can recall from the novels, I don't think the person you're bidding against is typically aware of which specific warriors or machines you're bidding. They may have opinions on the quality of individuals under your command, but the real weight seems to be on unit type and number.

If I was your opponent I would not allow substitutions without a loss of honor.
"Inferior genetic material in your warrior or inferior medical techs. Either case reflects on you as an incapable commander. I look forward to claiming you as isorla; cleaning actuators is a more true use of your talent level. Removing you from command will make your clan stronger by subtraction. Let none interfere, Seyla."

The attackers bid among themselves - the defender doesn't typically know what was or wasn't bid until the battle starts.

Quote
I think it would depend on the whole bid. You can call in more forces based on your cut downs and what you initially bid right?

From Blood Legacy: "A commander went in to attack with whatever he had bid, but could bring down reinforcements equal to his rival's last bid" (which isn't the same thing as the "cut down"), "without penalty. Ultimately, he could bring down as much as the opening bid in the contest for that planet, but his rival would have to allow him that option, which would mean concessions to the losing bidder."

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Sharkapult

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #41 on: 20 May 2019, 22:05:36 »
From the bidding scenes I can recall from the novels, I don't think the person you're bidding against is typically aware of which specific warriors or machines you're bidding. They may have opinions on the quality of individuals under your command, but the real weight seems to be on unit type and number.

The attackers bid among themselves - the defender doesn't typically know what was or wasn't bid until the battle starts.

From Blood Legacy: "A commander went in to attack with whatever he had bid, but could bring down reinforcements equal to his rival's last bid" (which isn't the same thing as the "cut down"), "without penalty. Ultimately, he could bring down as much as the opening bid in the contest for that planet, but his rival would have to allow him that option, which would mean concessions to the losing bidder."

The particulars may vary from Clan to Clan.
From what I understood both sides know the composition of their opponents. How else could the defenders bid appropriately? That's the whole point of codexes. If I deviate from that bid it could have severe consequences.
Without transparency the whole bidding idea just doesn't work. Otherwise I would just substitute equipment and personnel after the initial bid and my opponent would have no idea.
I seem to remember in Roar of Honor both commanders commenting on the capabilities and qualities of the opposite side.

Colt Ward

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #42 on: 20 May 2019, 22:18:42 »
She tracked number of units and weight- IIRC one of the first missions was trying to find out what the Wolves were using.  Before Op Revival, if someone said they were attacking with Trinary Heavy of the 4th Wolf Guards the defender is going to have a good idea what mechs they are fielding with maybe one or two different from the last time they were seen on combat.  Especially if they are facing off against someone on the same world they have fought before.  Guess it sort of depends on how much of Trial activity makes the 'news' on the Chatterweb.

Each side knows their exact forces, its how commanders bid against each other- and I think this is backed up by the holotank pop up windows we see in the BoK trilogy.  They tell the defenders they are attacking with X cluster, Y trinaries and types, or even Z stars.  Look at the information about the initial Omni trials, they did not explain the technology to those they were fighting and the capabilities surprised opponents several times.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #43 on: 20 May 2019, 23:23:23 »
There are several novels where after a Batchall has been issued, the POV characters then review their information on the enemy force and guess what mechs and (if omnis) what configurations they're likely to see fielded.  They explicitly don't actually know whether Star Commander Bob is going to be using a Vulture Prime or a Vulture A until after shots are exchanged.
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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #44 on: 21 May 2019, 07:46:14 »
How else could the defenders bid appropriately?

They bid what they want and expect the attackers to bid appropriately in order to ensure the winning bid gets some glory. No one is going to support a warrior for a bloodname if they keep bringing a cluster to fight a star.
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Sharkapult

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #45 on: 21 May 2019, 20:50:19 »
They bid what they want and expect the attackers to bid appropriately in order to ensure the winning bid gets some glory. No one is going to support a warrior for a bloodname if they keep bringing a cluster to fight a star.
But the attackers announce their forces first in a batchall, the defenders then decide how much of their force they will use to defend. If they don't have a good idea of what a "3rd Striker Star" is made up of then how do the defenders stand out and gain glory? The defenders don't want to sledgehammer a light recon star with a star of assaults, especially considering the clans views of wasteful actions.
In my opinion it would make a lot of sense to have a serious exchange of information during the batchall. Otherwise what would stop a savvy attackers from swapping a green pilot for a bloodnamed one or a Baboon for a Fire Falcon? The defenders would never know. Omni configs I get, that info would probably not be given up.
If I'm wrong I'll just chalk it up as another one of those things that just doesn't make sense about the game universe I love so much.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #46 on: 21 May 2019, 21:12:15 »
If you're garrisoning a planet with enough force that you can bid an assault star, anyone who raids the planet without sufficient force to take on your potential bid is stupid.  And if they bid down to a recon star they deserve what's going to happen to them.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #47 on: 21 May 2019, 21:36:17 »
They have some pretty standard meanings . . . so a heavy star, IMO you are expecting anything from 3H & 2M to 4H & 1A . . . maybe 2 depending on the Clan or if they are Gargoyles.  If you look at the Quad-Vee entry info, I want to say one source talked about how the Horses threw who they were fighting for a loop b/c they organized them in vehicle points- so surprise! Falcon/Wolf/Bear, you now face a pair of Quads when you were expecting tanks!

I think that right there says they do not spell out the machines.  Also, since they all come from the Star League, they started with the same baseline definition of 'Striker Lance/Company' . . . and again, its the machines that are not revealed.  They share the codexes of the warriors involved- its part of how the trueborns who kill every freeborn they face know who to look for . . .
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Sharkapult

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #48 on: 22 May 2019, 04:55:05 »
If you're garrisoning a planet with enough force that you can bid an assault star, anyone who raids the planet without sufficient force to take on your potential bid is stupid.  And if they bid down to a recon star they deserve what's going to happen to them.
Clans fight over more than just "Everything you have!" A raid might be for a warrior's breeding rights or just the yearly grain yield from the farms on a continent, or even water rights on a shared planet. Where normal societies bargain and cut a deal the clans fight. (And strive for a fair fight) The attacking clan would see a smaller bid as a more appropriate use of resources depending on the target. Obviously no one is going to defend Tokasha with a single star. (better bring multiple galaxies)
When it comes to QuadVees, I always saw that more as a lack of understanding of what they were and their capabilities than a lack of provided info, but it certainly leans towards subterfuge that their "in-between" nature allows in a lack of info.

Colt Ward

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #49 on: 22 May 2019, 09:24:53 »
No, the fluff was quite explicit that the Horses organized them as vehicle points so they would have a star with 10 'mechs' that was deceptive in the bidding.  They got away with it in initial bidding b/c the opponents did not recognize/know what was in that star/point, but I want to say the attitude was that it was a dezgra trick.
Colt Ward
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #50 on: 22 May 2019, 11:34:24 »
Clans fight over more than just "Everything you have!" A raid might be for a warrior's breeding rights or just the yearly grain yield from the farms on a continent, or even water rights on a shared planet. Where normal societies bargain and cut a deal the clans fight. (And strive for a fair fight) The attacking clan would see a smaller bid as a more appropriate use of resources depending on the target. Obviously no one is going to defend Tokasha with a single star. (better bring multiple galaxies)

No, but if "an assault star" is something that you can reasonably expect to be part of the garrison force and therefore reasonably expect to be the winning bid for the trial, if you didn't prepare to take on that much force when you bid, the failure is all on you.
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skiltao

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Re: Zellbrigen and Omnimechs
« Reply #51 on: 22 May 2019, 15:22:29 »
But the attackers announce their forces first in a batchall, the defenders then decide how much of their force they will use to defend. If they don't have a good idea of what a "3rd Striker Star" is made up of then how do the defenders stand out and gain glory?

The attacker knows roughly how valuable the thing they're attacking is. They'll arrive with more than enough forces, announce themselves, get a response from the defenders, and then the attacker's subcommanders bid their subforces down as low as they can while still having a reasonable expectation of victory - the goal is a challenging fight, not a fair fight.

The attackers have the advantage and the defenders stand out by overcoming that advantage.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2019, 15:24:44 by skiltao »
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